Prayer clothes?

[The Biblicist]

Catholic "Christians" is a touchy subject here on the BB. Some are allowed to stay while others are banned. It depends on their rhetoric. Why a true Christian would want to stay in the RCC is a mystery when we know the truth of the scriptures. So this why having Catholics considered "Christian' can be a sensitive issue here.

It is a "touchy" question because they repudiate the very essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ when they demand that justification is completed in the "sign" and "seal" of baptism rather than at the previous point "with the heart man believeth" (Rom. 10:10). Paul makes it very clear that justification by faith not only precedes any external "sign" or "seal" (Rom. 4:11) but is accomplished without such. The bottom line is that sacraments convey what Paul demands is conveyed by faith "in" Christ alone (Rom. 3:24-26) WITHOUT sacraments. Hence, "another gospel."

 

[steaver]

It is a "touchy" question because they repudiate the very essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ when they demand that justification is completed in the "sign" and "seal" of baptism rather than at the previous point "with the heart man believeth" (Rom. 10:10) when Paul makes it very clear that justification by faith not only precedes any external "sign" or "seal" (Rom. 4:11) but is accomplished without such BECAUSE justification is found by faith "IN" Christ rather than faithfulness to Christ (Rom. 3:24-26).

Yes, Excellent explanantion, short and sweet! Although there are a mountain of errors held by the RCC we could list, this difference you show between us and the RCC is of most importance.

 

[DHK]

Care to point out from the Bible where Jesus said that His clergy would be perfect. Jesus never promised that His Church members would be perfect . There being 'good' and 'bad ' members is one foretold by Jesus in Matt. 13: 24-30 also as St. Paul told Timothy " If we are unfaithful , he remains faithful , for he cannot deny himself " 2 Tim. 2: 13. Even the Pope is a sinner ,just ask him and he will tell you so. We are all sinners.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)

 

[David Lamb]

Only time I've heard about something like this was when a Reformed Baptist pastor was pushing the "stations of the Cross" and mentioned St. Veronica's veil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_Veronica:

A Reformed Baptist pastor pushing the so-called "stations of the Cross"? That sounds unlike any baptist preacher I have ever heard, reformed or otherwise.

Or did you mean he was preaching against such things as "Veronica's Veil"?

 

[lakeside]

Jesus was in the "forgiveness" business, why aren't you. Of course the members and clergy of Christ's Church make mistakes, no different than all the other smaller churches, we are all sinners. If your small church was as' Universal "and as large as the Catholic Church it too would recieve the worlds attention when a member of its clergy is a pederast. It would be like if a small town mayor would commit a serious crime , the news of this would be usually held in the general vicinity of that town, different story if he or she was a mayor of a large city, same as the Catholic Church.Most all of the non-Catholic churches also have this same problem, but it usually goes no further than their immediate geographical area. Just as they dragged Jesus through the mud and mire so too with His only Church . Satan works overtime to try and destroy Christ's Church, for two thousand years he has been at the heels of the Church, the Church being protected from doctrinal error by the promise of Jesus- Matt. 16; 18-19 has weathered all storms throughout the last two thousand years. No other entity has lasted as long under such adverse conditions ,a valid litmus test ,an indication of that very promise by Jesus to His Bride the Church, i don't believe we will ever see Jesus divorcing His Church, the Church that Christ loves. Eph. 5: 25-26.

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus was in the "forgiveness" business, why aren't you. Of course the members and clergy of Christ's Church make mistakes, no different than all the other smaller churches, we are all sinners. If your small church was as' Universal "and as large as the Catholic Church it too would recieve the worlds attention when a member of its clergy is a pederast. It would be like if a small town mayor would commit a serious crime , the news of this would be usually held in the general vicinity of that town, different story if he or she was a mayor of a large city, same as the Catholic Church.Most all of the non-Catholic churches also have this same problem, but it usually goes no further than their immediate geographical area. Just as they dragged Jesus through the mud and mire so too with His only Church . Satan works overtime to try and destroy Christ's Church, for two thousand years he has been at the heels of the Church, the Church being protected from doctrinal error by the promise of Jesus- Matt. 16; 18-19 has weathered all storms throughout the last two thousand years. No other entity has lasted as long under such adverse conditions ,a valid litmus test ,an indication of that very promise by Jesus to His Bride the Church, i don't believe we will ever see Jesus divorcing His Church, the Church that Christ loves. Eph. 5: 25-26.

That is not the issue! Yes, all professed believers and all churches make mistakes. However, how would you treat a professor who admits they made a very obvious essential moral mistake but does not do anything to correct it? This is what the Pope and the Catholic church have done in regard to immoral priests.

 

[annsni]

Jesus was in the "forgiveness" business, why aren't you. Of course the members and clergy of Christ's Church make mistakes, no different than all the other smaller churches, we are all sinners. If your small church was as' Universal "and as large as the Catholic Church it too would recieve the worlds attention when a member of its clergy is a pederast. It would be like if a small town mayor would commit a serious crime , the news of this would be usually held in the general vicinity of that town, different story if he or she was a mayor of a large city, same as the Catholic Church.Most all of the non-Catholic churches also have this same problem, but it usually goes no further than their immediate geographical area. Just as they dragged Jesus through the mud and mire so too with His only Church . Satan works overtime to try and destroy Christ's Church, for two thousand years he has been at the heels of the Church, the Church being protected from doctrinal error by the promise of Jesus- Matt. 16; 18-19 has weathered all storms throughout the last two thousand years. No other entity has lasted as long under such adverse conditions ,a valid litmus test ,an indication of that very promise by Jesus to His Bride the Church, i don't believe we will ever see Jesus divorcing His Church, the Church that Christ loves. Eph. 5: 25-26.

You cannot equate the Catholic church with Jesus - one is perfect and one is very much not.

Yes, the local church handles the issues just as Paul commanded in 1 Corinthians 5. It was the LOCAL church who dealt with it because there was no "universal" church corporation. The "universal church" is all of the body of believers - not an organization.

 

[DHK]

Jesus was in the "forgiveness" business, why aren't you.

No, I stood beside a man as he stood before a judge, and was sentenced to a jail term for being a sex offender.
I believe in justice. God is a holy God. Sin has its consequences.

What does the Bible teach:
Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he? (Habakkuk 1:13)

 

[lakeside]

Please, will all of you pick up and read your Bible at 1 Samuel 2 you will read about the two sons of Eli, who were wicked priests. These priests were known to be having intercourse with the women who worked at the Tabernacle (1 Sm 2:22-24). God punished them for their wickedness (1 Sm 2:25, 34, 4:11), but that did not disprove the religion of Israel or that its priesthood was from God. Similarly, the fact that there are bad priests today does not prove that the Catholic Church/Faith is false or that its priesthood is not from God.

Bad priests have been around since the Old Testament, and if you had judged the religion of Israel by the quality of some of its priests, you would have missed out on the true religion. Ditto for Catholicism today.

 

[annsni]

Please, will all of you pick up and read your Bible at 1 Samuel 2 you will read about the two sons of Eli, who were wicked priests. These priests were known to be having intercourse with the women who worked at the Tabernacle (1 Sm 2:22-24). God punished them for their wickedness (1 Sm 2:25, 34, 4:11), but that did not disprove the religion of Israel or that its priesthood was from God. Similarly, the fact that there are bad priests today does not prove that the Catholic Church/Faith is false or that its priesthood is not from God.

Bad priests have been around since the Old Testament, and if you had judged the religion of Israel by the quality of some of its priests, you would have missed out on the true religion. Ditto for Catholicism today.

So you are saying that Catholicism is the true religion?

 

[Walter]

So you are saying that Catholicism is the true religion?

Did Peter have a successor? And even if he did, did those successor spawn RCC that we see today? For me, the jury is still out. I used to believe the "little rock, big rock" theory. However, that theory seems to have developed fairly recent. I have read that practically every Protestant commentary written in the last 50 years interprets Peter as the rock upon which the church was built. (However, they didn't believe that Peter had a successor). The evangelical Carson's "Expositors Bible Commentary" explains this. In the section on Matthew 16. When those scholars looked closely at the Greek word for rock "Petra" and determined that it refers to Peter. Did the early Christians also referred to Peter as the Rock? I have read that they did.

 

[Walter]

Also, for me I have had to take a close look at the life and witness of a close relative. She left the Baptist Church for the Catholic Church. Since then, her life has changed dramatically. She exhibits the fruit of the Spirit and people are often asking her what has changed in her life. Her response is always 'Jesus Christ'. She, like the BB member'Thinkingstuff', (and a couple of others) have found that the Catholic Church is (according to them) not only compatible with New Testament church but believe it IS the New Testament Church. 'Thinkingstuffs' explanations and his testimony is not easily dismissed and are pretty convincing. Enough so that I have gone back over numerous threads he has participated in and am compeled to study Catholicism closer as a result.

 

[annsni]

Also, for me I have had to take a close look at the life and witness of a close relative. She left the Baptist Church for the Catholic Church. Since then, her life has changed dramatically. She exhibits the fruit of the Spirit and people are often asking her what has changed in her life. Her response is always 'Jesus Christ'. She, like the BB member'Thinkingstuff', (and a couple of others) have found that the Catholic Church is (according to them) not only compatible with New Testament church but believe it IS the New Testament Church. 'Thinkingstuffs' explanations and his testimony is not easily dismissed and are pretty convincing. Enough so that I have gone back over numerous threads he has participated in and am compeled to study Catholicism closer as a result.

I was raised in an Irish Catholic family. My mother and many relatives came to know the Lord as their Savior when I was young but I was still surrounded by Catholicism thanks to my grandmother and dad. Additionally, I went to Catholic school from 7th through 12th grades and my best friends are a deacon and cantor in the church so I do not speak from a place of ignorance.

The Catholic church is so far from the church that is spoken of in the Bible. VERY far. I'd go so far as to say that they teach another gospel and I do not believe that one can be saved and still continue in the faith of the Catholic church. They are quite different in it's foundation and as such, I do not see Biblical salvation and the teachings of the church to be compatible.

 

[kfinks]

Enough so that I have gone back over numerous threads he has participated in and am compeled to study Catholicism closer as a result.

If you choose to do so, read only the primary documents such as the catechism. Don't spend effort with secondary docs. Do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

 

[lakeside]

So you are saying that Catholicism is the true religion?

No, it is not a religion. it is the Orthodox Christian Faith, not a religion.

 

[annsni]

No, it is not a religion. it is the Orthodox Christian Faith, not a religion.

That's not what you said:

"...you would have missed out on the true religion. Ditto for Catholicism today."

 

[steaver]

Jesus was in the "forgiveness" business, why aren't you. Of course the members and clergy of Christ's Church make mistakes, no different than all the other smaller churches, we are all sinners. If your small church was as' Universal "and as large as the Catholic Church it too would recieve the worlds attention when a member of its clergy is a pederast. It would be like if a small town mayor would commit a serious crime , the news of this would be usually held in the general vicinity of that town, different story if he or she was a mayor of a large city, same as the Catholic Church.Most all of the non-Catholic churches also have this same problem, but it usually goes no further than their immediate geographical area. Just as they dragged Jesus through the mud and mire so too with His only Church . Satan works overtime to try and destroy Christ's Church, for two thousand years he has been at the heels of the Church, the Church being protected from doctrinal error by the promise of Jesus- Matt. 16; 18-19 has weathered all storms throughout the last two thousand years. No other entity has lasted as long under such adverse conditions ,a valid litmus test ,an indication of that very promise by Jesus to His Bride the Church, i don't believe we will ever see Jesus divorcing His Church, the Church that Christ loves. Eph. 5: 25-26.

So you defend the Pope in his decision to forgive the preist who were found to be raping the children AND to allow them to keep their positions as preist? Which many of these preist were moved around the globe and never removed even after repeating their crimes over and over in the places they were sent.

Do you have children Lakeside? Would you forgive a man for raping them and then allow him to continue to watch over them? Would you ask the authotities to not prosecute the rapist? Just let him go, I forgive him? No need to remove the rapist from access to my children, just let him go in peace? Is this your position on forgiveness Lakeside?

Jesus said, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. "

Where's Jesus' forgiveness Lakeside? Looks like consequences to me.

 

[lakeside]

I was raised in an Irish Catholic family. My mother and many relatives came to know the Lord as their Savior when I was young but I was still surrounded by Catholicism thanks to my grandmother and dad. Additionally, I went to Catholic school from 7th through 12th grades and my best friends are a deacon and cantor in the church so I do not speak from a place of ignorance.

The Catholic church is so far from the church that is spoken of in the Bible. VERY far. I'd go so far as to say that they teach another gospel and I do not believe that one can be saved and still continue in the faith of the Catholic church. They are quite different in it's foundation and as such, I do not see Biblical salvation and the teachings of the church to be compatible.

Many people that leave the Catholic Church , only think that they know the Faith but most never understood its history,and strrutural foundation, many claim they never had the Holy Bible read to them, if they would have listen they would have heard the Bible being read to them at every Mass they attended.
Read the Book of Acts , it looks exactly like the Catholic Church today considering the times back then.Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom ( Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).

By virtue of this divinely-appointed authority, the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture (what books belong in the Bible) at the end of the fourth century. We therefore believe in the Scriptures on the authority of the Catholic Church. After all, nothing in Scripture tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17). It is through the teaching authority and Apostolic Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. ( Ephesians 3:10).

"And I will set up one shepherd over them , and he shall feed them ' [ Ezechiel 34:23 ]
Later Jesus appoints His first earthly shepherd to feed and care for His sheep, a good shepherd never leaves his sheep without a physical shepherd. Jesus was a 'Good Shepherd' that appointed a shepherd while He returned to the Father.
" Jesus said to Simon Peter , "Feed my lambs .... feed my lambs.....feed my sheep ''.

Jesus said to Peter; " Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven "
[ Matt. 16: 19 ]
What more truth do you need, of course there is more evidence from the Holy Bible and outside the Holy Bible. Ever notice that Jesus never ,not once, ever mentions of any other future churches needed. That is because the 'doctrine" was already in place back then [ Romans 16: 17-18 ] notice the following "......... in opposition to the "doctrine" which you have been taught; ........ "In other words , "no more different churches fron His Apostolic Church [ Luke 10:16 ] needed ,then, or in the future. Tell me where in the Bible did Jesus give your church founder the authority to form your church ?

 

[Walter]

If you choose to do so, read only the primary documents such as the catechism. Don't spend effort with secondary docs. Do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

Excellent advice. Thank you!:wavey:

 

[Jerome]

A Reformed Baptist pastor pushing the so-called "stations of the Cross"? . . . Or did you mean he was preaching against such things

No, it was definitely favorable.

That sounds unlike any baptist preacher I have ever heard, reformed or otherwise.

Oh, I was shocked myself. We began hearing all sorts of bizarre things once he went Reformed.
Apparently its all the rage now. Many Presbyterian Church in America congregations feature the Stations of the Cross too.

Evangelicals Making Liturgical Traditions Their Own

Second Baptist Church's first "Journey Through Stations of the Cross." At the end of the tour, visitors can write down their sins and nail them to the cross.

For churches affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, individual congregations can choose how they would like to observe Lent (if at all), Holy Week and Easter.

"Because of the autonomy of our churches, there is such a variety," said Mike Harland, director of worship for Lifeway Christian Resources.

Lou Ann, a pastoral assistant at First Baptist Church of Friendswood, said she's familiar with the church calendar, having grown up in the Methodist Church, and that Maundy Thursday and Good Friday services help "re-emphasize" Baptist teachings on Jesus' death and resurrection.