Prayer of the Blessed Virgin

[riverm]

Here goes my .02 of what I think of Mary being the Queen of Heaven. First I don’t have a problem if it turned out to be fact that Mary is the Queen of Heaven. Quite frankly Mary plays no part in my Salvation, but that wouldn’t negate her role as Queen.

Revelation 12 speaks of a “woman” wearing a crown who gives birth to a child, I’m sure you know the story without me going into detail. I’ve read commentary after commentary of the book of Revelation. The Roman Catholics believe this woman to be a literal woman (Mary) and a literal child (Christ). I myself being raised a fundamentalist was always taught to take a literal approach to scripture, that’s all fine and dandy until we come to Revelation 12, when the woman is now figurative for Israel and the child is literal for Christ.

When I read Genesis 1 and 2 at face value or literally, I come to the conclusion that evolution is a lie, which I believe to be true and I get an “atta boy” from my fundamentalist brethren. When I read Revelation 12 at face value and read about a woman who is crying in pain during childbirth, delivers a child and then flees and I relate this to Mary who gives birth to Christ and flees. Suddenly fingers are pointed at me and I’m then labeled a Catholic sympathizer who now, because he believes something that Catholics believe may not be truly “saved.” Hypocrites!

My wife and I practice “family planning.” We don’t believe using birth control is what God had in mind. Many in my Church believe this too, but are hushed, hushed about it and you won’t hear a sermon on the topic either, because it may look as though we’re aligning ourselves with those evil Catholics.

 

[D28guy]

riverm,

"Revelation 12 speaks of a “woman” wearing a crown who gives birth to a child, I’m sure you know the story without me going into detail. I’ve read commentary after commentary of the book of Revelation. The Roman Catholics believe this woman to be a literal woman (Mary) and a literal child (Christ). I myself being raised a fundamentalist was always taught to take a literal approach to scripture, that’s all fine and dandy until we come to Revelation 12, when the woman is now figurative for Israel and the child is literal for Christ.

When I read Genesis 1 and 2 at face value or literally, I come to the conclusion that evolution is a lie, which I believe to be true and I get an “atta boy” from my fundamentalist brethren. When I read Revelation 12 at face value and read about a woman who is crying in pain during childbirth, delivers a child and then flees and I relate this to Mary who gives birth to Christ and flees.

"I myself being raised a fundamentalist was always taught to take a literal approach to scripture, that’s all fine and dandy until we come to Revelation 12, when the woman is now figurative for Israel and the child is literal for Christ."

No *fundamentalist* of any sort takes the entire bible literally. Nobody believes that when Christ said He was a "door" or "bread" that He was literally a wooden door with hinges and a door knob, or that he was a walking and speaking loaf of bread. "Door" meant that he was our passageway into eternal life, and "bread" meant that He is our Spiritual sustenance.

By "comparing scripture with scripture" and letting the scripture interpret itself, we can discern where the scriptures are to be taken literally and where they are not.

The whole of scripture rules out the possibility that the "woman" wearing a crown, etc in revelation is the heretically supposed "Queen of the Universe" Mary.

God bless,

Mike

 

[PamelaK]

I think if Mary were the Queen of anything God would have told us in His Word. Instead he told us she is highly favoured and blessed among women.

The following is a "hymn" I sang often as a Catholic and reflects well what Catholics believe about Mary. It's either Biblical or not.

Hail holy queen enthroned above,
Oh Maria.
Hail mother of mercy and of love,
Oh Maria.
Triumph all ye cherubim,
Sing with us ye seraphim.
Heaven and earth resound the hymn.
Salve, salve, salve regina. :|

Our life, our sweetness here below,
Oh, oh, oh, oh Maria.
Our hope in sorrow and in woe;
Oh, oh, oh, Maria.
Triumph all ye cherubim cherubim
Sing with us ye seraphim seraphim
Heaven and earth resound the hymn
Salve, salve, salve regina.

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by PamelaK:
I think if Mary were the Queen of anything God would have told us in His Word. Instead he told us she is highly favoured and blessed among women.

Maybe God did in Revelation 12?

With over 1200 different denominations all forming their doctrines based on their own unique interpretation of the bible, I’d say it’s a good possibility that Rev. 12 is depicting Mary.

I believe when we die and get to Heaven that we’d all realize that we were wrong in some interpretations and right in others.

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by D28guy:
No *fundamentalist* of any sort takes the entire bible literally. Nobody believes that when Christ said He was a "door" or "bread" that He was literally a wooden door with hinges and a door knob, or that he was a walking and speaking loaf of bread. "Door" meant that he was our passageway into eternal life, and "bread" meant that He is our Spiritual sustenance.

Actually Mike, When Jesus was referring to himself, as a “door” he spoke this in such away that those He was preaching to would relate. Many where Shepard’s or could relate to a Shepard’s duties and at night the Shepard’s would coral their sheep into an area so that there was but one way in and out and that was through the Shepard himself. So in actuality the Shepard was a “door”, although not in the sense that we would call a door, wooden with hinges and a doorknob.

I see your point, but why in Revelation 12 do I need to take the “woman” figurative and the child literal?

 

[PamelaK]

No one will rule in Heaven but God, for He will not share His glory with another (Isaiah 42:8) Mary can not be on a like level with God Incarnate, Christ, born without sin, (as the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception states), since she needed a Savior. (Luke 1:47)

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by PamelaK:
No one will rule in Heaven but God, for He will not share His glory with another (Isaiah 42:8) Mary can not be on a like level with God Incarnate, Christ, born without sin, (as the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception states), since she needed a Savior. (Luke 1:47)

You’re trying to force Catholic dogma into my interpretation of Revelation 12. I never stated that Mary, Queen of Heaven or not will share in our Lords Glory. Furthermore, for the sake of argument, even IF Mary turned out to be the “queen of Heaven” this would in no way put her on any level equal to God. And if Catholics believe that Mary is on the same level as Christ then they are in deed in error.

 

[PamelaK]

Originally posted by riverm:

"You’re trying to force Catholic dogma into my interpretation of Revelation 12. I never stated that Mary, Queen of Heaven or not will share in our Lords Glory. Furthermore, for the sake of argument, even IF Mary turned out to be the “queen of Heaven” this would in no way put her on any level equal to God. And if Catholics believe that Mary is on the same level as Christ then they are in deed in error."

I am simply giving Scripture verses to support my belief that Mary will not "turn out" to be the Queen of Heaven. You believe that she might, and Catholics believe that she will, partially due to their interpretation of that verse. Does not a queen share in the king's glory? And yes, Catholics believe that Mary was conceived without sin in her mother's womb and that she is "the Immaculate Conception".

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by PamelaK:
Does not a queen share in the king's glory?

If the question is implying that if I believe that Mary being the “queen mother” or as Roman Catholic dogma would put it “queen of heaven” will take away from Jesus’ Kingship, then I would have to answer with a resounding NO.

 

[steaver]

riverm,

Have you studied all that was said about the "woman" in Revelation?

You need not go any further than verse 6 of chapter 12 and you will see that this "woman" fled into the wilderness for 1,260 days. That is three and a half years.

This is after her child was "caught up unto God, and to his throne".

Do you find anywhere in the NT record Mary fleeing into the wilderness after Jesus' ascention into heaven?

At verse 13 we find the devil himself chasing after the "woman" right here on earth.

When did any of this ever happen to Mary? Is she coming back to earth some day so it can happen to her?

God speaks about a "woman" in Hosea 2:2-13. Is this woman Mary as well?

The woman is clearly the nation of Israel in Rev 12 and it is clearly speaking about the future tribulation (3 1/2 years plus 3 1/2 years). Unless you believe the tribulation already happened in Mary's lifetime, the woman cannot be Mary the mother of Jesus and therefore this chapter in Revelation adds NOTHING to the possibility that this "woman" could be Mary!

God Bless!

 

[riverm]

Steaver: Thanks for pointing Revelation 6 out to me. I’ve read and studied Revelation in Sunday school and I honestly don’t recall studying the numbered days (I’d have to go back through my lessons). Makes sense though that these three and a half years would be the last half of the tribulation, thanks!

 

[steaver]

God bless you riverm for your humbleness and willingness to have eyes to see and ears to hear. Many passages do take some indepth study and one can honestly see how some things can be misconstrued. But I would say that even the youngest babes in Christ could see that if you read the entire chapter of Rev 12 there is no way that this "woman" could be Mary. Verse 6 puts the nails in that coffin. Also one can note that this "woman" is crowned with "twelve stars". This was shown to John and written for a reason. Twelve is a significant number in the scriptures. I believe one can firmly conclude that these twelve stars represents the twelve tribes of Israel hence adding even further proof that the "woman" must be the nation of Israel. If it were Mary then she must have been queen over Israel when she became pregnant with the man child Jesus. We all know that she was not a queen then.

Are there any other passages used by the RCC to promote Mary as a queen? This one in Rev 12 doesn't even appear questionable.

God Bless!

 

[Kamoroso]

Exodus 20 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 5 8Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, 10And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Jeremiah 7 18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? 20Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Jeremiah 44 15Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying, 16As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee. 17But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. 18But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. 19And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
20Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying, 21The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind? 22So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day. 23Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day. 24Moreover Jeremiah said unto all the people, and to all the women, Hear the word of the LORD, all Judah that are in the land of Egypt: 25Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows. 26Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth. 27Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

[Marcia]

Does anyone know if is the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that Mary is the Mediatrix or is she a co-mediatrix? If that is true, can anyone show a Catholic source for this? Is it in the catechism?

Thanks.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by SouthernBoy:
As an Orthodox Christian now, I can't speak about the RCC. However, I can try to answer questions about Mary from an Orthodox view point if anyone is interested.

I'm interested. What's the Orthodox view of Mary?

 

[PamelaK]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Does anyone know if is the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that Mary is the Mediatrix or is she a co-mediatrix? If that is true, can anyone show a Catholic source for this? Is it in the catechism?

Thanks

Marcia,
From much of what I have read lately, there seems to be a great deal of pressure on the Pope to name Mary as co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix.
Also, I found the following on the internet. Hope it helps.

Blessed Virgin Mary: The Doctrine of Mary as Co-Mediatrix with Jesus Christ
The most disturbing doctrine affords the Blessed Virgin Mary a place positionally as co-mediatrix with Jesus Christ. In the words of Pope John Paul II: "In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God's plan, Mary is the 'woman' (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood, which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs."

There is no scriptural basis for placing Mary in a position as co-mediatrix for the church on earth. Christ's words were also very clear on this point: "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). The doctrine of Mary as co-mediatrix has never been declared by any pope while speaking "ex cathedra," or under the cloak of infallibility. There is currently some pressure within Catholicism for the Holy See to issue such a statement. However, the outcry from Protestantism would shake the foundations of Christianity around the globe, and would be tantamount to the Vatican launching a missile strike against the Ecumenical (Christian unity) movement.

 

[Marcia]

Where are the Catholics? I know in the past we had some on the BB. Are they still around. I'd like them to answer my question about Mary becoming co-mediatrix.

Also, Southern Boy, you offered to explain the Eastern Orthodox view.

 

[Marcia]

PamelaK, thanks for the info

but you didn't post a source. You need to or you are violating copyright rules and the BB rules.

I'd really like a Catholic source.

 

[PamelaK]

Originally posted by Marcia:
PamelaK, thanks for the info but you didn't post a source. You need to or you are violating copyright rules and the BB rules.
I'd really like a Catholic source.

Marcia, you are so right! Thanks for pointing this out. I apologize to you and the BB. Guess I got in too much of a rush.
I've posted the source below (it is one of many with the same quote.)
http://www.stbrigids-kilbirnie.com/Pages/church-mary.html

The best Catholic source for this would be www.vatican/va. Try searching for Pope John Paul II's General Audience on Wed, April 9, 1997.

 

[PamelaK]

Correction: www.vatican.va

(Sorry about that!!)