Praying for God to Save Someone

[Tom Butler]

Was it God's will when He sent Samuel to tell Hezekiah his life was ending? Did He really intend for Hezekiah to get his home in order, or was He lying or kidding, then? Did He hear Hezekiah's prayer, and respond to it?

web, this is one of the reasons I said you'll have to get in line behind me while I get some answers from the Lord Jesus someday.

God said he does not change. God gave Hezekiah more years of life after Hezekiah prayed. You and I believe both are true. How can that be?

I'm guilty of emphasizing the scriptures which support what I believe. I also believe that scriptures which seem to contradict actually don't, and that's where I struggle, sometimes. How to resolve them.

I believe God does not change. I believe in prayer. I believe God answers prayer. As I said, the first thousand years are mine. Get in line.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Tom

I am about as non calvanist as a Baptist can be and the OP does not make me uncomfortable at all. Since I have been on the BB I realize that calvanist and non Calvanist REALLY misunderstand one another. For example, when I read the OP I thought, "Boy that will make the Calvanist uncomfortable". Oh well, we'll get together in Heaven and laugh at how wrong we both were.

As far as praying and Hezakiah go, we have to chosse one of two sides.

God changed his mind or God Lied to Samuel.

Which do choose?

I belive he changed his mind, sort of. I don't know if I can explain this on line but I'll try. God knows all. Yet man has a free will. Remember God knows the outcome, but gives us the choice anyway. He sent Samuel to Hez. with his message. Knowing that Hez would pray and he would extend the years. This was all his plan yet Hez had the choice of praying or not. Thus God's plan from the beginning was done, God did not change, yet the prayer did influence the outcome. Just because God knew Hez would pray, does not mean he forced Hez to do so.

Now I've got myself confused.

 

[J.D.]

Tom

I am about as non calvanist as a Baptist can be and the OP does not make me uncomfortable at all. Since I have been on the BB I realize that calvanist and non Calvanist REALLY misunderstand one another. For example, when I read the OP I thought, "Boy that will make the Calvanist uncomfortable". Oh well, we'll get together in Heaven and laugh at how wrong we both were.

As far as praying and Hezakiah go, we have to chosse one of two sides.

God changed his mind or God Lied to Samuel.

Which do choose?

I belive he changed his mind, sort of. I don't know if I can explain this on line but I'll try. God knows all. Yet man has a free will. Remember God knows the outcome, but gives us the choice anyway. He sent Samuel to Hez. with his message. Knowing that Hez would pray and he would extend the years. This was all his plan yet Hez had the choice of praying or not. Thus God's plan from the beginning was done, God did not change, yet the prayer did influence the outcome. Just because God knew Hez would pray, does not mean he forced Hez to do so.

Now I've got myself confused.

I hope you and Tom don't mind me making a comment before I have to log off and do some work.

First, God didn't lie if you take the unstated yet implied expectation - "you will die unless you seek my face". Some folks object to this understanding and so be it.

But more importantly, we can take this complex issue and simplify it by splitting our understanding into 1) the eternal and 2) the temporal. In eternity, God predetermined the outcome of Hezekiah's life, and also predetermined the way He would achive the outcome. In time, from the human viewpoint, the outcome was contingent upon Hezekiah's prayer.

The thing is that the matter was both predetermined AND contigent. In the great confessions this is called "secondary causes", and represents the greatness of God in not merely forcing His will upon the creature, but using the actions and choices of the creature to accomplish His predetermined ends. Awesome, isn't it?

 

[thegospelgeek]

I hope you and Tom don't mind me making a comment before I have to log off and do some work.

First, God didn't lie if you take the unstated yet implied expectation - "you will die unless you seek my face". Some folks object to this understanding and so be it.

But more importantly, we can take this complex issue and simplify it by splitting our understanding into 1) the eternal and 2) the temporal. In eternity, God predetermined the outcome of Hezekiah's life, and also predetermined the way He would achive the outcome. In time, from the human viewpoint, the outcome was contingent upon Hezekiah's prayer.

The thing is that the matter was both predetermined AND contigent. In the great confessions this is called "secondary causes", and represents the greatness of God in not merely forcing His will upon the creature, but using the actions and choices of the creature to accomplish His predetermined ends. Awesome, isn't it?

Kinda sorta what I was trying to say but butchered it up.

 

[mima]

The subject is one dear to my heart. And while I have had many experiences I will just described the most recent one. I take great pride in being a "church hopper", and while I am very Southern Baptist I still like to understand what others believe consequently I visit many churches. Recently my wife and I walked into a church and sit down and as we were being greeted by people in the church who knew us I happened to glance forward at the back of a young man's head and immediately I was under conviction to pray for this individual's salvation. As we settled into the church service and the singing began , I begin to pray for this young man's salvation, I then enlisted my wife who was on my right hand side to pray with me about this young man. Then after a period of time I ask a friend of mine who was sitting on my left to help pray for this man's salvation. We continued praying for most of the service and when the invitation was given this young man went forward and received the Lord Jesus Christ.
I have had similar experiences before and I have also had periods of almost uncontrollable weeping over someone's salvation, that is seeing a lost person come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Has anyone had similar experiences?

 

[J.D.]

The subject is one dear to my heart. And while I have had many experiences I will just described the most recent one. I take great pride in being a "church hopper", and while I am very Southern Baptist I still like to understand what others believe consequently I visit many churches. Recently my wife and I walked into a church and sit down and as we were being greeted by people in the church who knew us I happened to glance forward at the back of a young man's head and immediately I was under conviction to pray for this individual's salvation. As we settled into the church service and the singing began , I begin to pray for this young man's salvation, I then enlisted my wife who was on my right hand side to pray with me about this young man. Then after a period of time I ask a friend of mine who was sitting on my left to help pray for this man's salvation. We continued praying for most of the service and when the invitation was given this young man went forward and received the Lord Jesus Christ.
I have had similar experiences before and I have also had periods of almost uncontrollable weeping over someone's salvation, that is seeing a lost person come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Has anyone had similar experiences?

Yes, I have had similar experiences.

By the way, I trust your "church hopping" does not interfere with your duties and support of your own local assembly?

 

[Marcia]

Change implies no such thing, particularly when you are referring to God. Marcia, face it...He has said it, not me.

God says he does not change. He can't change his mind or he is not perfect. You are not addressing the issues - change does imply imperfection. Change is not needed for a perfect Being.

Num23.19 "God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?


Mal 3.6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed."


James 1.17 "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow

Of course He doesn't change His mind the way a human changes theirs, the Bible specifically says just that. To deny that God can change His mind as He sees fit, and for His good pleasure is to deny His omnipotence and His Words from Scripture

No, it's not to deny His word. When God seems to react to someone's pleas, it is man's view of God. Otherwise, one would have to conclude we have a God who conforms to man.

If God changes his mind and reacts to man, what unchangeable thing/person exists in the universe against which change is measured? There would be none, and there would be no absolute immutability.

. Any course of thinking and determination is a change from the way it was prior. The earth hasn't always been here. God's creation itself was change. Was God less then imperfect before creation? Was God part of change (within time too, I might add)? God created it, hence a change from how it was.

That is not God changing his nature/mind. Creating the universe did not change God.

Do we have the Holy Spirit indwelling man...in time? You would have to discount most of the Bible to state God is not in time, this is close to buddhism. You cannot prove a negative.

Buddhism? There is no god in Buddhism.

The Holy Spirit indwells man but is not part of man's nature and is not reacting to time.

I've had this discussion before and you are one of the few people who insists that God changes his mind. The others I've discussed this with have been open theists or leaning toward/defending open theism, so your position is not the norm. You act like my position is unusual, but it is not.

I have some links to articles on this that explain the passages open theists use to defend their view that God changes his mind.

 

[swaimj]

In Romans 10:1, Paul wrote: "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

Paul also writes that he could wish himself accursed if it would result in the salvation of the Jews. Now, if you believe in a limited atonement, does Paul's statement not make him more loving and more gracious than Jesus since Paul was willing to die for people whom Jesus did not die for? There are difficulties on either side.

 

[Marcia]

Paul also writes that he could wish himself accursed if it would result in the salvation of the Jews. Now, if you believe in a limited atonement, does Paul's statement not make him more loving and more gracious than Jesus since Paul was willing to die for people whom Jesus did not die for? There are difficulties on either side.

Jim, who are you talking to? I am not Calvinist and do not believe in limited atonement.

 

[swaimj]

Marcia, the quote was from the opening post made by Tom Butler. I quoted from his post and was responding to it. I pretty much assume that you do not hold to limited atonement. Sorry for any confusion. Oh, and I am not Jim!:laugh:

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, the quote was from the opening post made by Tom Butler. I quoted from his post and was responding to it. I pretty much assume that you do not hold to limited atonement. Sorry for any confusion. Oh, and I am not Jim!:laugh:

Sorry for all the mistakes - yikes! :tonofbricks:

I don't know why, but I got it in my head that the j after "swaim" was "Jim." You know, as soon as I posted that, I realized from other threads that you would know I probably don't hold to Limited Atonement, and also I suddenly realized that I was not sure you are named "Jim." Sorry for the confusion! :wavey:

 

[swaimj]

No problem!

 

[webdog]

God says he does not change. He can't change his mind or he is not perfect. You are not addressing the issues - change does imply imperfection. Change is not needed for a perfect Being.

In the human sense (what you were referring to anthromorphism) He doesn't change. I'm sorry, but I think you are talking past me as I have addressed the issue.

No, it's not to deny His word. When God seems to react to someone's pleas, it is man's view of God. Otherwise, one would have to conclude we have a God who conforms to man.

If God changes his mind and reacts to man, what unchangeable thing/person exists in the universe against which change is measured? There would be none, and there would be no absolute immutability.

Scripture is God breathed, so it is not man's, but His. He says He relents. You say He doesn't. I'll take His word over yours.

That is not God changing his nature/mind. Creating the universe did not change God.

...but it is change, nonetheless, something you adamantly maintain God cannot do.

Buddhism? There is no god in Buddhism.

The Holy Spirit indwells man but is not part of man's nature and is not reacting to time.

I've had this discussion before and you are one of the few people who insists that God changes his mind. The others I've discussed this with have been open theists or leaning toward/defending open theism, so your position is not the norm. You act like my position is unusual, but it is not.

I have some links to articles on this that explain the passages open theists use to defend their view that God changes his mind.

Buddhism probably wasn't the best example, I'll give you that. I was referring to the time elment in buddhism.
There are more than a few on this thread that agree that what God says is true. It's not the norm to dismiss this, and is actually quite unusual. If one holds to sola scruptura, one cannot dismiss that HE has stated HE relents. Man didn't say it, God did. Like Tom and I have stated (both hold to different soteriological views, btw), it's a mystery that cannot be fugured out....yet you maintain you have done just that. That's presumptious, IMO.

 

[Marcia]

Scripture is God breathed, so it is not man's, but His. He says He relents. You say He doesn't. I'll take His word over yours.
.

And He says he doesn't in one of the quotes I posted (relent and repent are often from the same word)

...but it is change, nonetheless, something you adamantly maintain God cannot do.

Creating the world means God is changing? No, it doesn't. I don't know you use this to support the view God changes his mind.

If one holds to sola scruptura, one cannot dismiss that HE has stated HE relents. Man didn't say it, God did. Like Tom and I have stated (both hold to different soteriological views, btw), it's a mystery that cannot be fugured out....yet you maintain you have done just that. That's presumptious, IMO

And didn't I say I had articles that explain the apparent contradictions that God says he does not change and yet man sees God as changing in certain passages? Notice that those passages are all from man's view.

You still have not addressed the issue of God changing his mind and how this shows he is imperfect. You won't admit that changing one's mind means one has to go from plan A to plan B.

 

[Marcia]

http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Malachi 3.6

Malachi 3:6 declares, “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.” Similarly, James 1:17 tells us, “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.” The meaning of Numbers 23:19 could not be more clear, “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” No, God does not change His mind. These verses assert that God is unchanging, and unchangeable.

However, this appears to contradict what is taught in other verses, such as Genesis 6:6, “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.” Also, Jonah 3:10 which says, “When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened.” Similarly, Exodus 32:14 proclaims, “Then the LORD relented and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.” These verses speak of the Lord “repenting” of something, and seem to be contrary to verses that teach that God is unchanging. However, close examination of these passages reveals that these are not truly indications that God is capable of changing. In the original language, the word that is translated as “repent,” or “relent,” is the Hebrew expression of “to be sorry for.” Being sorry for something does not mean that a change has occurred; it simply means that there is regret for something that has taken place.

Consider in Genesis 6:6 that “…The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth.” This verse even goes on to say “…His heart was filled with pain.” This verse declares that God had regret for creating man. However, obviously He did not reverse His decision. Instead, through Noah, He allowed man to continue to exist. The fact that we are alive today is living proof that God did not change His mind about creating man. Also, the context of this passage is a description of the sinful state man was living in, and it is man’s sinfulness that triggered God’s sorrow, not man’s existence. Consider what Jonah 3:10 says: “…He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened.” Again, the same Hebrew word is used here, which expresses “to be sorry for.” Why was God “sorry” for what He had planned for the Ninevites? Because they had a change in heart, and as a result, changed their ways from disobedience to obedience. God is entirely consistent. God was going to judge Nineveh because of its evil. However, Nineveh repented and changed its ways. As a result, God had mercy on Nineveh, which is entirely consistent with His character.

http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Malachi 3.6http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Malachi 3.6http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Malachi 3.6
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-change-mind.html

 

[webdog]

However, close examination of these passages reveals that these are not truly indications that God is capable of changing. In the original language, the word that is translated as “repent,” or “relent,” is the Hebrew expression of “to be sorry for.” Being sorry for something does not mean that a change has occurred; it simply means that there is regret for something that has taken place.

So God was sorry for stating He was going to destroy the Israelites for cause...He felt regret...and this is not changing your mind?

 

[webdog]

And He says he doesn't in one of the quotes I posted (relent and repent are often from the same word)

He said He doesn't change His mind like man does, not that He doesn't change His mind. Since Scripture doesn't contradict, you can maintain He doesn't change His mind from the many passages where He states just that, or the one where He states He doesn't. It's up to you, I guess.

Creating the world means God is changing? No, it doesn't. I don't know you use this to support the view God changes his mind.

This will now be the second time I am stating I don't use this verse to prove God changes His mind. I don't need that one, there are straight forward ones stating just that. I simply used that verse to show that God reacts to man, something you have stated is impossible.

You still have not addressed the issue of God changing his mind and how this shows he is imperfect. You won't admit that changing one's mind means one has to go from plan A to plan B

I have addressed it already, you just won't have any of it. Go back and find it. You can state God's decision was "imperfect" to grant Hezekiah an additonal 15 years of life, or to not destroy the Israelites and Ninevah, but you are much braver than I. I will not call God imperfect, nor what He has decided to do. This Scripture alone is proof it's not imperfect since God is perfect.

 

[Marcia]

So God was sorry for stating He was going to destroy the Israelites for cause...He felt regret...and this is not changing your mind?

We know God feels pain (do not grieve the Holy Spirit); no, this does not mean changing his mind. It means regret, sorrow. God was sorry at man's wickedness on earth and sent the Flood. He knew all along man would become wicked and he would send the Flood but the Bible says he felt sorrowful. This is not changing one's mind.

 

[Marcia]

He said He doesn't change His mind like man does, not that He doesn't change His mind. Since Scripture doesn't contradict, you can maintain He doesn't change His mind from the many passages where He states just that, or the one where He states He doesn't. It's up to you, I guess..

If God changes his mind, he is not perfect. Why does God need to change his mind? This would mean he did not foresee something. How can God change since He is outside time?

Neo-orthodoxy sees God in time and outside time. They believe God changes, grows, and learns. They believe God is affected by man. This is not the God of the Bible.

You can state God's decision was "imperfect" to grant Hezekiah an additonal 15 years of life, or to not destroy the Israelites and Ninevah, but you are much braver than I. I will not call God imperfect, nor what He has decided to do. This Scripture alone is proof it's not imperfect since God is perfect

You are implying God is imperfect by saying he changed his mind because if God change his mind that means that his original decision to take H's life was the wrong one, so he changed his mind and added 15 yrs. to his life.

I don't think God ever changed his mind. He knew from eternity past that Hezekiah would ask for 15 yrs. and that He would grant it. There was no changing of mind.

I am guessing you do not believe God is immutable.

 

[Marcia]

The term “repented” reflects a figure of speech, common to many languages, known as “anthropopathism” (literally, man feelings). This is an idiom by which divine activity is described symbolically in terms of human emotion. It is rather similar to the kindred figure, “anthropomorphism” (man form) by which God is described as having physical parts (e.g., eyes, hands, etc.) even though he is not a physical being (Jn. 4:24; Lk. 24:39).

Anthropopathism, therefore, is a figure of speech by which human feelings or emotions are ascribed to God, in order to accommodate man’s ignorance of the unfathomable intentions and operations of deity (cf. Rom. 11:33-36). Professor Alan Cole has an excellent discussion of this figure as employed in the Exodus text under consideration.

“[Anthropopathism is a figure here used] by which God’s activity is explained, by analogy, in strictly human terms. The meaning is not that God changed His mind; still less that He regretted something that He had intended to do. It means, in biblical language, that He now embarked on a different course of action from that already suggested as a possibility, owing to some new factor which is usually mentioned in the context. In the Bible, it is clear that God’s promises and warnings are always conditional on man’s response: this is most clearly set out in Ezekiel 33:13-16. We are not to think of Moses as altering God’s purpose towards Israel by his prayer, but as carrying it out: Moses was never more like God than in such moments, for he shared God’s mind and loving purpose” (Exodus—Tyndale O.T. Commentaries, Downer’s Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 1973, p. 217; emphasis added).
​

It must be understood, therefore, that though certain biblical passages speak of the Lord being “changeless,” while others represent him as “changing” (in response to human conduct), that different senses are in view. In light of this fact, the “discrepancy” problem dissolves. But when one does not understand some of the common figures of speech utilized by the Bible writers, under the guiding influence of the Holy Spirit, he most certainly will draw many faulty conclusions — sometimes very dangerous ones.

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/559-does-god-change-his-mind