Praying for God to Save Someone

[webdog]

We know God feels pain (do not grieve the Holy Spirit); no, this does not mean changing his mind. It means regret, sorrow. God was sorry at man's wickedness on earth and sent the Flood. He knew all along man would become wicked and he would send the Flood but the Bible says he felt sorrowful. This is not changing one's mind.

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. He felt sorry for doing something that He was just and righteous in doing? He was sorry and felt pain for sending Samuel to Hezekiah, and granting him 15 years of life? This is a stretch to say the least, and takes hermeuntetical gymnastics to arrive at this position.

This is the last post for me, as you really are not addressing my points, just countering them with your presuppositions that are not backed Scripturally (if God changes His mind = He's not perfect), when the Bible is clear on the matter.

 

[Tom Butler]

These definitions of "repent" might be helpful.

When man repents, he changes his will.

When God repents, he wills a change.

 

[webdog]

Forgot about something I wanted to post earlier. What did Christ pray in the garden of Gethsemane? If God cannot change, relent, repent, whatever...Why did Christ pray as He could? I believe His theology was 100% perfect, yet He prayed that if it were the Father's will, to do what? CHANGE His plans and take the cup away from Him

 

[webdog]

These definitions of "repent" might be helpful.

When man repents, he changes his will.

When God repents, he wills a change.

Good definitions :thumbs:

 

[Marcia]

Forgot about something I wanted to post earlier. What did Christ pray in the garden of Gethsemane? If God cannot change, relent, repent, whatever...Why did Christ pray as He could? I believe His theology was 100% perfect, yet He prayed that if it were the Father's will, to do what? CHANGE His plans and take the cup away from Him

But he knew God would not change that. Jesus was praying a human prayer; he was both man and God.

As I said earlier, your view that God changes his mind is the minority view. You seem not to see my points about why God would change his mind and what this means about God if he does.

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. He felt sorry for doing something that He was just and righteous in doing?

God can feel sorrow about something:
Genesis 6:6 "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain."

 

[webdog]

But he knew God would not change that. Jesus was praying a human prayer; he was both man and God.

Knowing God wouldn't, doesn't mean God couldn't, else His is not sovereign. Jesus' "human" prayer was still 100% true, as He was without sin. Either He knew God could change His situation, or He prayed something foolish and false. Intercession for the wrong reasons is sin. You honestly think Christ was praying for something that could not be done?

If my view is in the minority, as long as it aligns with God's Word, that's fine by me.

God can feel sorrow about something:
Genesis 6:6 "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain."

Non sequitur, sorrow was something you brought to the discussion. The conversation went like this:

God: Hezekiah, get your home in order you are about to die
Hezekiah: Remember I have done what is right and have followed you
God: I have heard your prayer, and grant you 15 years more to live.

Where is the sorrow in that? How can you honestly say God was mistaken by HIM saying HE heard his prayer AND did something in regards to it...that He didn't really mean it, or it is only man's rendition of what happened? It's mind boggling! Accept it for what it says...it's a mystery.

 

[Marcia]

Knowing God wouldn't, doesn't mean God couldn't, else His is not sovereign. Jesus' "human" prayer was still 100% true, as He was without sin. Either He knew God could change His situation, or He prayed something foolish and false. Intercession for the wrong reasons is sin. You honestly think Christ was praying for something that could not be done?

I thought your last post was 2 posts ago! :tongue3:

I do not see how Jesus' prayer in the Garden supports the view that God changes his mind, when clearly He did not and Jesus prayed as a man. Jesus knew the sorrow and pain he was going to encounter. I have posted enough evidence to show God does not change his mind and I've posted the explanations for your statements (same ones used by Neo-orthodoxy and Open Theism).

If my view is in the minority, as long as it aligns with God's Word, that's fine by me.

Well, God says he does not "repent" or change.

Non sequitur, sorrow was something you brought to the discussion. The conversation went like this:

God: Hezekiah, get your home in order you are about to die
Hezekiah: Remember I have done what is right and have followed you
God: I have heard your prayer, and grant you 15 years more to live.

Where is the sorrow in that? How can you honestly say God was mistaken by HIM saying HE heard his prayer AND did something in regards to it...that He didn't really mean it, or it is only man's rendition of what happened? It's mind boggling! Accept it for what it says...it's a mystery

So God didn't know H. was going to ask for more time and God made a mistake at first in saying he was taking his life? Of course not! God never changed his mind because he's known forever that H. would ask for more time and God would grant it. This view of God changing his mind from H.'s view is the anthropomorphism, like God having arms or hands.

I think we're done but I'll keep responding if you do.

 

[webdog]

I'm done now, we are talking past each other

 

[Andy T.]

When God repents, he wills a change.

I think this is a good way of putting it. This is how John Piper expresses it in his writings on this subject. He has an article on his site about the Hezekiah incident. When God "relents" it is not something that catches Him off guard, rather, it is a change in direction that He has ordained beforehand. IOW, God is not static - He moves and works in this world. For instance, it was His plan and direction to work through Israel in the OT, and then He changed directions through the work of Christ and is now working [predominantly] through the Gentiles. No surprise to Him - He knew exactly what He was going to do, how He was going to do it, and what the outcome would be. He planned it all before the foundation of the world. And it is that way for all that comes to pass.

 

[Me4Him]

Forgot about something I wanted to post earlier. What did Christ pray in the garden of Gethsemane? If God cannot change, relent, repent, whatever...Why did Christ pray as He could? I believe His theology was 100% perfect, yet He prayed that if it were the Father's will, to do what? CHANGE His plans and take the cup away from Him

The reason Jesus prayed as he did, "let this cup pass, "IF POSSIBLE", was for two primary reasons.

1. To show that without a death for sin (wages paid) there can be no forgiveness of sin.

2. To show "US" that we have to be as willing to submit to "crucifying the flesh" (old man) as Jesus was if we're to be saved,

This is just one of the many ways we "Conform to his image".

1.
Jesus was Born by the Spirit
Mt 1:20 for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Christians are born by the spirit
Joh 3:5 Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,

2.
Jesus, was the Son of God.
Matthew 8 29,
Jesus, thou Son of God.

Christians, are Sons of God.
John 1 12,
to them gave he power to become the sons of God.

3
Jesus, spoke the words of God.
John 3 34,
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:

Christians, speak the words of God.
John 17 8,
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me.

4
Jesus, possessed the Holy spirit.
John 3 34,
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Christians, possesses the Holy Spirit.
Luke 11 13,
your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him.


5
Jesus, was the Light of the world.
John 9 5,
I am the light of the world.

Christians, are the light of the world.
Matthew 5 14,
Ye are the light of the world.

6
Jesus, performed the Works of God.
John 9 4,
I must work the works of him that sent me.

Christians, perform the Works of God.
John 14 12,
He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also.


7
Jesus, had the Righteousness of God.
Romans 10 4,
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.

Christians, Have the Righteousness of God.
Romans 3 22,
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe.

8
Jesus, was God's Representative.
Matthew 10 40,
he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Christians, are God's Representatives.
Matthew 10 40,
He that receiveth you receiveth me.

9
Jesus, Crucified for salvation.
Matthew 27 35,
And they crucified him.

Christians, Crucified for salvation.
Romans 6 6,
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him.

10
Sin had no dominion over Jesus.
Second Corinthians 5 21,
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin.

Christians, sin has no dominion over Christians.
Romans 6 14,
For sin shall not have dominion over you.

11
Jesus, was Raptured off the earth.
Acts 1 9,
he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Christians, will be Raptured off the earth.
First Thessolonians 4 17,
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

12
Jesus, was Resurrected in three days.
Luke 18 33,
and the third day he shall rise again.

Christians, will be Resurrected in Three days.
Romans 6 5,
we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

These three days for the church are the 5th, 6th, and 7th day.

13
Jesus, received a Glorified body.
Acts 2 31,
neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christians, will receive a Glorified Body.
First Corinthians 15 53,
For this corruptible must put on in corruption.

14
Jesus, presented his Body a living sacrifice before God.
First Corinthians 5 7, For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.

Christians, presenting their body, a living sacrifice.
Romans 12 1,
that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God.

15
Jesus, will inherit the universe.
First Peter 3 22,
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God;
angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Christians, will inherit the universe.
Romans 8 17,
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

16
Jesus, will Reign over the earth.
Habakkuk 2 14,
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD,
as the waters cover the sea.

Christians, will Reign over the earth.
Revelations 20 4,
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

17
The title, Son of God, conferred on Christians,
entitled them to sit on the right hand of Jesus, with God.

Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

18
As Jesus presented only his body before God,
so will only his body, the Church, be presented before God at the lamb’s marriage supper.

Revelations 19 9, And he saith unto me, Write,
Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

 

[Tom Butler]

In an earlier post, I noted that has ordained the ends, and also has ordained the means he will employ to those ends.

John Piper pointed out the role of preaching in salvation (the "foolishness of preaching" as he put it in I Cor 1:21). He also identified prayer as a means by which he accomplishes his ordained will to save some.

I find a good example in Luke 18, where Jesus healed the blind man, Bartimaeus, in Luke 18. It was Jesus intention to heal him. Yet he made Bartimaeus ask for his sight. Jesus had determined to heal the man in response to his request.

Curiously, in John 9, Jesus heals a blind man straightway, saying he had been born blind for this very moment. He spit on the ground and put the mud on the man's eyes. The man asked for nothing, but was healed anyway. No question that Jesus intended to heal him--actually from eternity--but ordained a different means that he would accomplish the end.

 

[Onesimus]

If Not Prayer

This is an old but important thread. It seems to me that if prayer for another's salvation is pointless, since it would violate their free will, then this has profound practical applications.

It would seem to me time and effort would be much better spent:
1. Loving the person and doing all we can to develop a deep realtionship with them.
2. Developing the Fruit of the Spirit in ourself.
3. Becoming very skillful and tactful in presenting Christianity and answering questions about it.

These are all things that are in God's Will and that we can choose of our free will to have the Holy Spirit Help us with. I.e., they are all transactions solely between us and God.

We might also want to deal with, accept, the possibility that in speaking with them about Christ we always run the risk of loosing the relationship. But which is more important a good relationship with them now or them in Heaven for eternity?

But someone might say, "but if they are predestined...". I do not completely understand predestination and I doubt anyone else does. What if I could say or do something that would help one of my children go to Heaven? What if it is "predestined" that I do that?

 

[Tom Butler]

I have to tell you, I have no problem praying for God to save a lost person. In fact, I have some relatives that need salvation. And it does not bother me one bit to pray that God will over-ride their will and save them. Or that he will touch their hearts, change their will, create faith within them, and grant them repentance.

Are any of you praying for God to save someone, but please don't violate his will to do it. Are any of you really praying to God, please save him, but if he won't repent, then to Hell with him?

In my minds eye, I can see a mother on here knees, on her face before God, begging God to save a son, whatever it takes. Do any of you identify with this?

 

[Onesimus]

Here is my question. Which accomplishes more?
1. Years of prayer or
2. A few minutes spent rationally and coherently presenting the Gospel to them (not canned or jargon) at an appropriate time and giving intelligent answers to their questions.

Yes my prayer is that all of them will be saved. But how is that best accomplished? It may feel good to pray for their Salvation but it may not get much done toward it.

The truth is, I have not spent much time preparing myself to talk to them and the thought of talking to them about this scares me. But, it seems to me this is the best way to go. But the skill level required, even with the Help of the Holy Spirit, is closer to that of a heart surgeon. I.e., requires some serious effort, study and practice.

 

[Onesimus]

To refresh your memory, its been a long time since there were any new posts, the context here is not us violating another's free will, but God violating their free will. If God will not violate their free will, then it does no good for us to ask Him to do anything that would violate their free will.

 

[Tom Butler]

God will not drag someone kicking and screaming into heaven, No one will see heaven who does not want to go there. No one is saved against their will.

So, that begs this question: How does God save a rebellious sinner? And remember, we were all rebellious sinners before he saved us.

I think the answer is, he gives us a new heart. A "heart of flesh" to counter-act our heart of stone.

We find that in a couple of places in Ezekiel: In 19:11, God says through the prophet,
I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Later, in 36:26: I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

When God gives one a heart of flesh, he will act accordingly. He will desire to go in a different direction.

We know what we mean when we say "I've changed my mind."
We also know that it means essentially the same thing to say "I've had a change of heart."

And we also understand that to express a change of mind or heart, reflects a change of desires. A "heart of flesh" has different desires from one with a "heart of stone."

Although some will not agree with this, I believe that this is all a work of God.

Some will say that we are created with the ability to change our will, or to desire that which we did not desire before. We're never going to resolve that difference of opinion, but I believe that God's gift of a heart of flesh is a good picture of salvation by grace, and not of ourselves.

The gift of the heart of flesh is always given to one who is undeserving. Now that's grace.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jim, who are you talking to? I am not Calvinist and do not believe in limited atonement.

Marcia,
You did a really good job of refuting webdogs false philosphical ideas.
Then I noticed this post.
If you apply the same verses on immutability to the covenant atonement Jesus was sent to accomplish , you will believe in a particular redemption, limited to the children the Father has given to the Son.

Everyone limits the atonement. You do not believe that Jesus died forSatan, or fallen angels....do you?

What issue troubles you with the teaching of Limited atonement?

 

[webdog]

Marcia,
You did a really good job of refuting webdogs false philosphical ideas.
Then I noticed this post.
If you apply the same verses on immutability to the covenant atonement Jesus was sent to accomplish , you will believe in a particular redemption, limited to the children the Father has given to the Son.

Everyone limits the atonement. You do not believe that Jesus died forSatan, or fallen angels....do you?

What issue troubles you with the teaching of Limited atonement?

They are not my "ideas", they are what Scripture clearly teaches. The prayer of the righteous availeth much. That's not philosophy...trying to say it means anything but just what it says is.