Praying for others

Bizarre to the human finite mind? Sure, I don't have a problem with that. Why do you think we should be able to understand all the things of God?

Here is what we know from Scripture:
God is ultimately behind all things:
Romans 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

It is pretty hard for us to escape the "all things" that come from, through, and to God.

God does not tempt man with sin.
James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

Man is responsible for his sin:
Too many verse to list here, but start with Rev 20 where man is thrown in hell because of them. Other verses that would take this whole page could be offered.

I think the problem is that those who reject the Bible's teaching (that later become known as Calvinism) and God's ultimate authority have a box that God won't fit in but they won't change the box. God does not fit into your conceptions of what you think is possible. We are to submit ourselves to his revelation, even if we don't quite understand it. You can't force God to fit in your box.

Also, it is necessary to understand distinctions between ultimate and secondary causation, or mediate and immediate, or one of hte other kinds of distinctions that are made.

 

Pastor Larry

That would include the box built by Mr. Calvin. Do you really stand by your assertion that Calvinism and 'the Bible's teaching' are synonymous?

Anyway, back on topic: To paraphrase C.S. Lewis - I do not pray to change God. I pray so that God may change me.

 

On the general teachings of salvation, yes. I am speaking of Calvinism broadly, not the individual quirks that some have.

 

Actually, that is hard because of our human desire for answers. But God is infinite and has chosen not to reveal that to us. Over and over again in Scripture we see things that we humanly cannot understand ... things like the God-Man. Do you bail out on the deity of Christ because you can't fully understand how Christ is both fully God and fully man? Or how about the Trinity? Do you bail out on the Trinity becuase you can't understand it? Probably not ... the question is Why do you accept a mystery there but not here? Isn't that inconsistent on your part?

Absolutely. Part of hte image of God in man is free will. Man has free will jsut like God does (with obvious limitations of power.) Ask yourself this: Does God have free will? Of course, the answer is Yes. Now ask, Can God do anything at all? The answer is no; he cannot sin. So is God's free will not really free because there is something he can't do? Of course not. What we see is what free will really is. Free will is the ability to do anything consistent with our nature. All men have free will ... they can do whatever they like. That is why there are sinful and rebellious against God. Only when God changes their nature can do be different.

Because the Bible says that all things are from God, and through God, and to God. I don't make it up, Scott. I just preach what it says. I don't fully understand it. I don't have to. I do have to be faithful to it. It is certainly not an easy question. But I don't think we should bail out on it because it doesn't suit our sensibilities.

Well, the "logical result" might not be the biblical result. Secondly, who cares? If God saw fit to do that, then he gets to do that, and to quote God himself, Who are you to question him?

In the lapsarian views, I am an infra: Create man permit sin provide atonement elect individuals. But when man goes to hell, it is only his own fault. God is not making him sin. He is doing what comes naturally to him; he is doing exactly what he wants to do. At any time he so desires, or to use the biblical term--wills--at any time sinful man is willing he may believe and be saved. He is kept from God and salvation only by his own sinfulness.

Exactly ... that is why we must carefully study the issue. When I did that, I became a Calvinist, not because I liked the name. In fact, I don't like it. But it is the name given to the doctrines taught by Scripture. The Arminian side just has too many problem verses they can't deal with. That is why I switched. I got tired of not being able to answer questions and explain verses.

Actually you are incorrect. God has enough power to allow his creation to choose or reject him. He lets man operate by his own free will. Once again, we see the ugly head of misunderstanding rearing up.

I don't see any reason why that is the case. I see plenty of biblical evidence that it is not the case. When you read the theologians on this topic, you will very easily see why your assertion doesn't work.

 

Hello ScottEmerson.

Yes but you don't have to keep reminding everybody!

Maybe so but at least our boat floats! More than the sieve the Arminians use.HaHa. Our holes are above the water line, we believe our God is Sovereign.

johnp.

 

Paedobaptism is not an issue of Calvinism with respect to soteriology. Remember, Calvinism per se deals with salvation. It is generally not used to describe the whole of Calvin's thoughts, but merely the issues of soteriology.

 

I think absolutely that God is the ultimate cause (didn't I already say that several times??). That doesn't mean man isn't responsible or that God is responsible for sin. You are interchanging ideas with way too much liberty heere. But ultimate cause and secondary cause are not the same thing. These distinctions are vital and valid. Aren't you a PhD student? I thought you said once upon a time you were but I may have that confused. I am surprised that someone at the PhD level doesn't know these distinctions. Of course, I take all that back if I am thinking of someone else.

"For your liking" being the key phrase. I haven't read Calvin. My views on soteriology were drawn from Scripture and then later buttressed by men like Murray, Hodge, Piper, and others. Remember that Scripture is not a full systematic theology book of God. There are going to be some holes, by nature of revelation and by nature of God. THere is no way that finite man can understand God. Remember the examples I gave? I could give. Think about his omnipresence ... He is everywhere all at one time ... and all of God is everywhere all at one time. And he doesn't move to get there. Or his omniscience that renders all things certain. Whether you agree with the "cause" argument, you have to agree that he certainly knew that Adam would fall and by virtue of his infallible knowledge, there was no chance that Adam was not going to fall. These are things that are confusing to our minds. It shows that our God is truly worthy of our worship.

 

Scott,

Man is responsible for his sin. Period. God does not force man to recieve punishment. Man chooses to reject God. HE doesn't want to. You are constructing straw men. Listen ... EVery calvinist believes that whosoever will believe in Christ will be saved.

God is the ultimate cause, if you want to put it that way. But in your position, you will have to explian how you leave something out of "all things." That makes no sense. I don't understand why you would deny the revelation of God to satisfy your own logical constructions.

With respect to omniscience, if you don't understand the issue of God's knowledge and certainity, then you need to think some more. Think of it this way by answering this questions:

Did God know before creation that ADam would sin? If you answer no, then God is not omniscient, since he doesn't know all things. If you answer yes, then Adam had to sin; there was no other option except proving God's knowledge wrong .. in which cases see response to "no" answer.

If you have read Piper or any other calvinist and come to the conclusion that they are teaching that man cannot choose God, then you aren't reading carefully. We believe man can choose. He can choose whatever he wants to do.

You have constructed your conclusion about worship out of a man made idea. It did not arise from Scripture, and that is the danger of your position. It is not based on Scripture. You have constructed your idea of "cause" and "responsibility," "choosing" etc, rather than accepting what Scripture says about it.

BTW, was I wrong about you being a PhD student? Was that someone else?

 

It is not forced. IT is free will.

All true, except for the first statement, which is true with qualification. The often used proof text of JOhn 12:32 clearly references all kinds of men (Jews and Greeks), not all men individually. The rest is certainly true, and there is work of conviction on the unbeliever as well.

Assuming that is true (which has its problems), it means that Adam had no real choice. What if he changed his mind? Furthermore, if God was loving and omnipotent, and knew that Adam would fall with the result that most of humanity would go to hell, then why didn't God do something to change it. You run into all kinds of problems with this view, and you still don't absolve God of "responsibility." He could have done something and didn't. And Adam had no choice to change his mind.

 

ScottEmerson.

The question is skewed. You must admit that if God did not in some way want humans, angels or Himself to suffer He did not need to start the mess off in the first place did He?
He knew what would happen and created anyway.

How do you deal with that?

You are bought you do not belong to yourself. Free will is negated by coercion. Vote for me or go to Hell is coercion and it negates your god.

johnp.

 

Hi Larry;

But if God took mans moral ability and made it so he could only respond in one direction because of his morality. Then he didn't have a choice. There is no freewill, If God regenerates man so that he can believe with out his permission first. This then it is a forced Salvation. There is no way around it.
You say man has freewill to choose then you turn around and state that man will only choose what he is morally capable of.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

ILUVLIGHT.

The will is free if it allows you to do what you want. How can the will be free if it able to decide to do what you don't want to do?
Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;
This isn't God's Law. It's an invitation.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Not to mention that I do a lot of things I don't want to do.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

He's just calling a certain section of the sheep in this way in Matthew.
Elsewhere it is a command. A requirement. A law.
JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

johnp.