Praying for the dead... ???

[Cathode]

Praying TO the dead was a practice in Roman culture. They believed dead relatives could give them advice on their current issues (much as mediums d today)

The Catholic Church “chistianozed” this practice of praying to dead realities by claiming folks can pray to dead saints, especially Mary to intercede for them before God.

What was forbidden is summoning the dead, necromancy.

The saints in heaven aren’t dead, they are eternally alive in God. And yes they can pray for us, just as any saint on earth can pray for us.

Praying for the dead was a Jewish practice as we see in Maccabees.

“It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins.” 2 Macc 12:46

Sacrifices were offered in the Temple for the battle slain soldiers that wore pagan amulets, that they be loosed from those sins.

It is clearly contrary to scripture which states there is one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ.

Every time you pray to God for others, you break from this idea.

The mediatorship of Christ referred to here is Christ’s unique mediation on the Cross. Otherwise it would be forbidden to even say the Lord’s Prayer.

 

[GentleGospeller]

What was forbidden is summoning the dead, necromancy.

The saints in heaven aren’t dead, they are eternally alive in God. And yes they can pray for us, just as any saint on earth can pray for us.

Praying for the dead was a Jewish practice as we see in Maccabees.

“It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins.” 2 Macc 12:46

Sacrifices were offered in the Temple for the battle slain soldiers that wore pagan amulets, that they be loosed from those sins.



Every time you pray to God for others, you break from this idea.

The mediatorship of Christ referred to here is Christ’s unique mediation on the Cross. Otherwise it would be forbidden to even say the Lord’s Prayer.

Maccabees? That Apocryphal confusion?

Just looking at the discrepancies of Maccabees, the apocryphal [non-Scriptural KJB] materials in regards Antiochus IV Epiphanes:

"... The Three Deaths of Antiochus Epiphanes in three locations in as many ways:

1) First death - Antiochus’ first death is found in 1 Maccabees 6:1-16. According to this report he is in Persia and dies while in his own bed due to grief over military losses.

a) Location: Persia - 6:5
b) Place: in bed - 6:8
c) Cause: dies from a broken spirit due to military
reversals - 6:8, 9
d) People involved: friends - 6:10, Philip - 6:14
e) Dies: 6:16
f) Text: 1 Mac. 6:14 - 16

14 Then called he for Philip, one of his friends, whom he made ruler over his realm.

15 And gave him the crown, and his robe, and his signet, to the end he should bring up his son Antiochus, and nourish him up for the kingdom.

16 So king Antiochus died there in the hundred forty and ninth year.

2) His second death - The “second” death of Antiochus is found in 2 Maccabees 1:14-17. In this passage he is also in Persia, but is in the temple of a false goddess Nanea during his wedding ceremony. He is supposedly assassinated by the priests of the goddess who drop huge stones down on him from above and then cut his body in pieces.

a) Location: Persia - 1:13
b) Place: the temple of the goddess Nanea during his
wedding - 1:13 - 15
c) Cause: crushed to death by stones hurled down from
the ceiling and then dismembered - 1:16
d) People involved: Antiochus' attendants & the priests
of Nanea who kill him - 1:15
e) Dies: 1:16
f) Text: 2 Mac. 1:14 - 16

14 For Antiochus, as though he would marry her, came into the place, and his friends that were with him, to receive money in the name of a dowery.

15 Which when the priests of Nanea had set forth, and he was entered with a small company into the compass of the temple, they shut the temple as soon as Antiochus was come in:

16 and opening a privy door of the roof, they threw stones like thunderbolts, and struck down the captain, hewed them in pieces, smote off their heads, and cast them to those that were without.

3) His third death - The amazingly durable Antiochus dies his third and final time in 2 Maccabees 9:1-29. This time he is on his way to Jerusalem to wage war on the Jews. According to the text, God curses him and he is eaten by worms. Before he dies he repents of his evil intentions and writes a letter of peace to the Jews.
a) Location: the road to Jerusalem - 9:3 - 7
b) Place: on a mountain road - 9:8, 28
c) Cause:
1. God's curse on him - 9:5
2. He falls from his chariot - 9:7
3. worms eat him & his skin rots off - 9:9, 10
d) People involved: his chariot driver, his army - 9:4, 9
e) Dies: 9:28
f) In this account he repents and becomes a Jew and
then writes a letter of peace to the Jews.
g) Text: 2 Mac. 9:28
28 Thus the murderer and blasphemer having suffered most grievously, as he entreated other men, so died in a miserable death in a strange country in the mountains. ..." - Sam Gipp's 24 Hour Seminar Notes, pages 78-80, reformatted.

We haven't even gotten to 3 and 4 Maccabees yet ... :slight_smile: that even Catholics do not accept as Deutero-Canon.

 

[GentleGospeller]

What was forbidden is summoning the dead, necromancy.

The saints in heaven aren’t dead, they are eternally alive in God. And yes they can pray for us, just as any saint on earth can pray for us.

Praying for the dead was a Jewish practice as we see in Maccabees.

“It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins.” 2 Macc 12:46

Sacrifices were offered in the Temple for the battle slain soldiers that wore pagan amulets, that they be loosed from those sins.



Every time you pray to God for others, you break from this idea.

The mediatorship of Christ referred to here is Christ’s unique mediation on the Cross. Otherwise it would be forbidden to even say the Lord’s Prayer.

An Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures. by Thomas Hartwell Horne, B.D. of Saint John's College, Cambridge; rector of the United Parishes of Saint Edmund the King and Martyr and Saint Nicholas Acons, Lombard Street; Prebendary of Saint Paul's; New Edition, from the Eighth London Edition, Corrected and Enlarged. Illustrated with numerous maps and fac-similies of Bilical Manuscripts. Volume I. Philadelphia: Published by J. Whetham & Son, 144 Chestnut Street. Stereotyped by L. Johnson. 1841.; page 426 (left column)

"The apocryphal books were not admitted into the canon of Scripture during the first four centuries of the Christian church. They are not mentioned in the catalogue of inspired writings made by Melito, bishop of Sardis, who flourished in the second century, nor in those of Origen, in the third century, of Athanasius, Hilary, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius, Gregory Nazianzen, Amphilochius, Jerome, Rufinus, and others of the fourth century; nor in the catalogue of canonical books recognized by the Council of Laodicea, held in the same century, whose canons were received by the Catholic Church; so that, as Bishop Burnet well observes, "we have the concurring sense of the whole church of God in this matter." To this decisive evidence against the canonical authority of the apocryphal books, we may add that they were never read in the Christian church until the fourth century, when, as Jerome informs us, they were read "for example of life and instruction of manners, but were not applied to establish any doctrine;" and contemporary writers state that although they were not approved as canonical or inspired writings, yet some of them, particularly Judith, Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus, were allowed to be perused by catechumens. As proof that they were not regarded as canonical in the fifth century, Augustine relates that when the book of Wisdom was publicly read in the church, it was given to the readers or inferior ecclesiastical officers, who read it in a lower place than those books which were universally acknowledged to be canonical, which were read by the bishops and presbyters in a more eminent and conspicuous manner. To conclude: Notwithstanding the veneration in which these books were held by the Western Church, it is evident that the same authority was never ascribed to them as to the Old and New Testament; until the last Council of Trent, at its fourth session, presumed to place them all (excepting the prayer of Manasseh and the third and fourth books of Esdras) in the same rank with the inspired writings of Moses and the prophets." - An Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures : Thomas Hartwell Horne : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Josephus:

"... We have but twenty-two [books] containing the history of all time, books that are justly believed in; and of these, five are the books of Moses, which comprise the law and earliest traditions from the creation of mankind down to his death. From the death of Moses to the reign of Artaxerxes, King of Persia, the successor of Xerxes, the prophets who succeeded Moses wrote the history of the events that occurred in their own time, in thirteen books. The remaining four documents comprise hymns to God and practical precepts to men (William Whiston, trans., Flavius Josephus against Apion, Vol. I, in Josephus, Complete Works, Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1960, p. 8). ..." - https://blogs.blueletterbible.org/b...storical-evidence-of-the-old-testament-canon/

Laodicea:

"... Canon LX.

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world; 2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.

And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon. ..." - NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Sam Gipp

"... 1. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone (a little Syriac/Chaldee in Daniel, etc.) used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

2. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.

3. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.

4. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.

5. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.

6. It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead...

7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation. ..." - Sam Gipp - The Answer Book by Samuel C. Gipp | Evangelist Samuel C. Gipp, Th.D. | A Friend to Churches Ministries

 

[GentleGospeller]

The saints in heaven aren’t dead, they are eternally alive in God. And yes they can pray for us, just as any saint on earth can pray for us.

The only persons alive in heaven from earth are:

Translated Alive without seeing Death:

Enoch (OT) - Gen. 5:24; Heb. 11:5 KJB

Elijah (OT) - 2 Kin. 2:1-12 KJB

Resurrected (made alive from death), and taken back to heaven:

Moses (OT) - Num. 20:8-12, 27:13, 31:2; Deu. 4:21-22, 31:2,14,16, 32:51-52, 34:1-8; 1 Sam. 2:6; Jhn. 11:25-26; Mat. 17:1-12; Mar. 9:1-13; Luk. 9:27-36; Rom. 5:14; 2 Pet. 1:16; Jud. 1:9 KJB

Jesus (NT) - Eternal Heavenly Trio (JEHOVAH Elohiym) Col. 2:12; 1 Pet. 1:21; 1 Cor. 6:14; Act. 2:24, 3:15, 13:33; Heb. 13:20; (The Father) Act. 4:10; Eph. 1:20; Rom. 6:4; Gal. 1:1; 1 Thes. 1:10; (The Son) Jhn. 2:19, 10:18; (The Holy Ghost) Rom. 8:11; 1 Pet. 3:18; See also: Mat. 28:1-20; Mar. 16:1-20; Luk. 24:1-53; Jhn. 20:1-31; 1 Cor. 15:20,23 KJB

Firstfruits (NT) - Mat. 27:50-53, 28:1-4; Isa. 26:19; (for Jesus, see also Psa. 40:6; Heb. 10:5; Gal. 4:4); Psa. 68:8,17-21 (vs 21., see Gen. 3:15); compare Psa. 68:18 to Eph. 4:8-10; & Lev. 23:9-14; 15-22 (Firstfruits) to 1 Cor. 15:21-23. See also Psa. 24:1-10 (Victory Train into New Jerusalem), with Psa. 98:1-3; Col. 2:15. See also Acts 1.

There are no others. All else are deceased and await their resurrection, like as King David:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Jesus said so:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Job by the Holy Ghost said so:

Job_20:11 His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust.

Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

Job 14:5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Job 14:6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.
Job 14:7 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Job 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Paul quotes Job:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Wrath of God is the 7 Last Plagues; Rev. 15-16.

The Heaven of this earth does not pass away until Jesus returns in power:

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Rev_6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Paul said:

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (ie back to heaven when He returns for them)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Bible is clear. Whomever you think you are praying to (including Mary, also dead), or asking to pray for you, are dead. They cannot hear you (Ecc. 9:5-6,10; Psa. 146:4; &c.)

Job_14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.

 

[John of Japan]

Praying "to the dead" as Catholics do is a completely pagan custom. It is what occurs at a Buddhist funeral, and then later in the home of the loved ones. A photo is set up of the dead loved one, and family members and others then speak specifically to the dead person, praying to them. I have seen this exact same practice at a Japanese Catholic funeral. Then later the photo is taken home and put in the butsudan (Buddhist home altar), where the family continues to pray to the spirit of the dead, offering green tea, oranges, etc. I have been to a Catholic bookstore in Tokyo where they sold a duplicate of the Buddhist home altar, only "Christianizing" it somehow with a cross. Do Japanese Catholics pray to the dead loved one at home? Not sure, but would not be surprised.

 

[canadyjd]

What was forbidden is summoning the dead, necromancy…..

Every time you pray to God for others, you break from this idea

The mediatorship of Christ referred to here is Christ’s unique mediation on the Cross. Otherwise it would be forbidden to even say the Lord’s Prayer.

You are making nonsensical statements.

Surely you can see the difference between praying to God for someone else and praying to a departed saint? Or can you?

According to scripture, Jesus stands at the Father’s side and intercedes for us. Not Mary: Not Peter: Not Paul. JESUS!!

So yes, we lift our prayers directly to God. Anything else disrespects the position of authority given to Jesus alone.

I do understand your position. It is unbiblical.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

What was forbidden is summoning the dead, necromancy…..

Every time you pray to God for others, you break from this idea

The mediatorship of Christ referred to here is Christ’s unique mediation on the Cross. Otherwise it would be forbidden to even say the Lord’s Prayer.

You are making nonsensical statements.

Surely you can see the difference between praying to God for someone else and praying to a departed saint? Or can you?

According to scripture, Jesus stands at the Father’s side and intercedes for us. Not Mary: Not Peter: Not Paul. JESUS!!

So yes, we lift our prayers directly to God. Anything else disrespects the position of authority given to Jesus alone.

I do understand your position. It is unbiblical.

Peace to you

 

[Cathode]

We haven't even gotten to 3 and 4 Maccabees yet ... :slight_smile: that even Catholics do not accept as Deutero-Canon.

We read in the New Testament the Jews celebrated the feast of the Dedication of the Temple which the Lord Himself attended.
The reason and the events of which can only be found in the writings of Maccabees.
Only Maccabees explains this sacred feast of the Dedication.Hanukah, a feast the Jews celebrate today.

The Jews prayed for the dead to be loosed from their sins. Made sacrifices as sin offerings in the Temple

These aren’t details that can be denied. Jews today will tell you.

“They found sacred charms, idols from Jamnia that the Law forbids Jews to wear, under the clothing of each of the dead. It became clear to all why these men had fallen.
41 Then they all praised the Lord, the righteous judge who makes hidden things visible.
42 They appealed to God and prayed for the sin that had been committed to be completely wiped out. The honorable Judas called on the people to keep themselves free from sin, since everyone had seen what had happened because of the sin of those who fell.
43 After taking a collection from each man, he sent the sum of two thousand silver drachmen to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. He was acting honorably and appropriately, thinking about the resurrection.
44 If he hadn't been looking forward to the resurrection of the dead, then it would have been unnecessary and frivolous to pray for them.
45 He was looking, however, to that best reward laid up for those who die in godliness, and so this was a pious and holy thought. Thus he made an offering of reconciliation so that the dead would be forgiven of their sin.

You are making nonsensical statements.

Surely you can see the difference between praying to God for someone else and praying to a departed saint? Or can you?

According to scripture, Jesus stands at the Father’s side and intercedes for us. Not Mary: Not Peter: Not Paul. JESUS!!

So yes, we lift our prayers directly to God. Anything else disrespects the position of authority given to Jesus alone.

I do understand your position. It is unbiblical.

Peace to you

I see no problem asking a saint in heaven for prayers, as I ask a Saint on earth to for prayers. Scripture doesn’t forbid that, that’s a lie.

Jesus mediatorship was unique on the Cross, that’s the one mediator they are talking about.
We see subordinate mediation all through the New Testament.

 

[Rye]

Praying for the dead was a Jewish practice as we see in Maccabees.

Ah yes, the book that every Bishop of Rome rejected as canonical prior to 382.

 

[Cathode]

Ah yes, the book that every Bishop of Rome rejected as canonical prior to 382.

No, it was part of Canon from the beginning.

 

[canadyjd]

No, it was not. It was added as canon by the RCC as a response to the reformation call for “scripture alone”.

But you already knew that.

Peace to you

 

[Walter]

No, it was not. It was added as canon by the RCC as a response to the reformation call for “scripture alone”.

But you already knew that.

Peace to you

Wrong! The The Catholic Church did not add the Apocrypha to the Bible, but rather reaffirmed the canon of Augustine, which included the Apocrypha, at the Council of Trent in 1546. It was already part of the canon.

 

[Rye]

No, it was part of Canon from the beginning.

Why was it rejected for hundreds of years?

 

[Cathode]

Why was it rejected for hundreds of years?

The Latin Vulgate remained the same since the Council of Rome in 382 Ad.

Pope Damasus declared.

“Likewise it has been said: Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis one book, Exodus one book, Leviticus one book, Numbers one book, Deuteronomy one book, Josue Nave one book, Judges one book, Ruth one book, Kings four books, Paralipomenon two books, Psalms one book, Solomon three books, Proverbs one book, Ecclesiastes one book, Canticle of Canticles one book, likewise Wisdom one book, Ecclesiasticus one book. Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book, Jeremias one book,with Ginoth, that is, with his lamentations, Ezechiel one book,Daniel one book, Osee one book, Micheas one book, Joel one book, Abdias one book, Jonas one book, Nahum one book, Habacuc one book, Sophonias one book, Aggeus one book, Zacharias one book, Malachias one book. Likewise the order of the histories. Job one book, Tobias one book, Esdras two books, Esther one book, Judith one book, Machabees two books. Likewise the order of the writings of the New and eternal Testament, which only the holy and Catholic Church supports. Of the Gospels, according to Matthew one book, according to Mark one book, according to Luke one book, according to John one book. The Epistles of Paul [the apostle] in number fourteen. To the Romans one, to the Corinthians two, to the Ephesians one, to the Thessalonians two, to the Galatians one, to the Philippians one, to the Colossians one, to Timothy two, to Titus one, to Philemon one, to the Hebrews one. Likewise the Apocalypse of John, one book. And the Acts of the Apostles one book. Likewise the canonical epistles in number seven. Of Peter the Apostle two epistles, of James the Apostle one epistle, of John the Apostle one epistle, of another John, the presbyter, two epistles, of Jude the Zealut, the Apostle one epistle.” Pope Damasus (regn. A.D. 366-384), Decree of the Council of Rome, The Canon of Scripture (A.D. 382).

The Council of Trent simply reaffirmed the same 73 book Canon that had stood for over 1000 years.

Even Protestant bibles had the full 73 book Canon, until certain bible societies in the 1800s decided to reduce the Canon to 66 books to save on printing costs.

 

[Rye]

The Latin Vulgate remained the same since the Council of Rome in 382 Ad.

Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, didn't seem to think that apocryphal books should have been included.

The Council of Trent simply reaffirmed the same 73 book Canon that had stood for over 1000 years.

Are you forgetting Pope Gregory the Great? He rejected those books as canonical, unless you want to say that he wasn't exercising infallibility with that claim. In which case, when is the Pope ever infallible with the things he says? That always seems to be determined long after the fact.

Even Protestant bibles had the full 73 book Canon, until certain bible societies in the 1800s decided to reduce the Canon to 66 books to save on printing costs.

The apocrypha was included in the first editions of the King James Bible but was never considered to be inspired in the first place.

 

[Cathode]

Ah yes, the book that every Bishop of Rome rejected as canonical prior to 382.

The Canon of the Bible was first declared in 382 Ad, so this is nonsensical.

 

[Rye]

The Canon of the Bible was first declared in 382 Ad, so this is nonsensical.

You say that ignoring all the other facts I've stated.

 

[Cathode]

Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, didn't seem to think that apocryphal books should have been included.

Jerome accepted the ruling of Church over his opinions, which all good Catholics do.

Are you forgetting Pope Gregory the Great? He rejected those books as canonical, unless you want to say that he wasn't exercising infallibility with that claim. In which case, when is the Pope ever infallible with the things he says? That always seems to be determined long after the fact.

No, he referred them as Scripture all the time, these are deuterocanonical, but Scripture none the less.
We call them deuterocanonical today.

The apocrypha was included in the first editions of the King James Bible but was never considered to be inspired in the first place.

Protestantism had nothing to do the Canonisation process of the Bible, it is an entirely Catholic Church event regarding Her Book.
It was the Catholic Church that preserved and authenticated all the scriptures from the Apostles and determined the Canon itself in the first place.

The Catholic Church is the true Biblical Church, that’s why I only trust the Catholic to tell me what it means.

Everyone else had nothing to do with the Bible.

Every book in protestant Bibles were determined by the Catholic Church, so even they rely on the Authority of The Catholic Church, whether they know it or not.

 

[Rye]

Jerome accepted the ruling of Church over his opinions, which all good Catholics do.

And like many, he placed his trust in the authority of men rather than what is so clearly laid out in history. The Jews of Jesus' day completely rejected the apocryphal books and Jesus did not once make reference to any of them.

No, he referred them as Scripture all the time, these are deuterocanonical, but Scripture none the less.

Pope Gregory the Great (ca 600 AD) when quoting 1 Maccabees says, "We address a testimony from books though not canonical, yet published for the edification of the Church."

So in other words, as long as it is an ancient piece of literature, we can call it "deuterocanonical" and it might receive approval for liturgical use.

Protestantism had nothing to do the Canonisation process of the Bible, it is an entirely Catholic Church event regarding Her Book.

You're right, protestants did not organize the canon. However, they did recognize which books lack credibility.

The Catholic Church is the true Biblical Church, that’s why I only trust the Catholic to tell me what it means.

Even though Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for following the traditions of men? How many times did He have to tell them, "Have you not read the scriptures"?

 

[canadyjd]

The canon (measuring rod) was established by the end of the first century.

Churches, under the guidance of God Holy Spirit, began collecting the writings of the Apostles before the end of the first century to maintain a record of God’s Word for future generations.

This canon (measuring rod literally) was used by churches to judge the reliability of documents they came later as to whether they were consistent with God’s Word as written by God’s chosen vessels from OT and NT.

Many books accepted by the RCC today were rejected as scripture by the early church and even by the RCC until the council of Trent since they obviously had no answer for the many errors in doctrine that contradicted what was accepted as scripture.

Their solution was to add books that supported their false doctrine and pretend they were scripture all along.

Unfortunately for the RCC, people know how to read and do their own research, which leads the RCC to demand people stop thinking for themselves and just trust the church leadership that has plagued the history of Christianity with murder, mayhem, child s:x abuse and mutilation, false doctrine, false hope, false assurance, Mary worship, Saint worship, angel worship, idols, and false Pope after false Pope that does not speak for God

You cannot get scripture right. You cannot get history right. You are blind to truth and the embrace the lies of men.

Peace to you