Praying to the dead - conjuring the dead

[BobRyan]

Trying2Understand clarifies the point on the fact that "relics" are defined as "among other things" the actual dead bodies of the saints.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The teaching of the Catholic Church with regard to the veneration of relics is summed up in a decree of the Council of Trent (Sess. XXV), which enjoins on bishops and other pastors to instruct their flocks that "the holy bodies of holy martyrs and of others now living with Christ—which bodies WERE the living members of Christ and 'the temple of the Holy Ghost' (I Cor., vi, 19) and which are by Him TO BE RAISED to eternal life and to be glorified are to be venerated by the faithful, for through these [dead bodies] many benefits are bestowed by God on men, so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of the saints, or that these and other sacred monuments are uselessly honoured by the faithful, and that the places dedicated to the memories of the saints are in vain visited with the view of obtaining their aid, are wholly to be condemned, as the Church has already long since condemned, and also now condemns them.""

Here it is claimed that the RCC is to continue to “condemn” Christians who faithfully reject the veneration of dead bodies. Veneration of the dead (dead bodies and the spirits of the dead) are typically forms of worship NOT endorsed by non-Catholics. Obviously.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BrianT:
This is easily disproven simply by looking at scripture, where "ekklesia" is used but NOT referring to a "local" assembly, but the church as a whole. Or don't these scriptures count either, for determining defintion?

Not so easy as you think. If you are interested in this discussion start another thread on it. Many of us have already been down this road already.
DHK

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by DHK:
Not so easy as you think.

Maybe for people who don't know how to use a concordance and other tools, to find out where/how words are used in the Bible.

If you are interested in this discussion start another thread on it. Many of us have already been down this road already.

Not interested.

 

[BobRyan]

Trying2Understand --
Jesus was talking to people before His sacrifice was finished. Right?

So it wouldn't apply anymore after His sacrifice was finished.

(I don't think this myself, just offering a sola scriptura type answer)

So Curits, why do you pray to God even though the sacrifice is finished?

A classic error - but in this case it is practically spelled out for the objective reader.

Christ did NOT say in Matt 28 "Teaching them to observe ALL the things I commanded you in the last Five minutes BUT NOTHING that I actually SAID while alive BEFORE My crucifixion".

EVEN the RCC - "tries to teach others" about the John 6 - "PRE CROSS" teachings of Christ.

EVEN the RCC - "tries to teach others" about the PRE-CROSS statements of Christ in Luke 22:14.

ALL the NT Gospel writers who were Acting ON the Matt 28 instruction to TEACH what Christ taught - ALL of them - focus almost EXCLUSIVELY on the TEACHINGS of Christ BEFORE the Cross.

(Read the Gospels and notice that fact.)

The line above that attempts to "trash the statements of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for His followers AFTER the Cross" - is an extreme case that CAN't even be supported by the RCC.

Surely as Christians - we can all reject such cut-and-paste approaches to God's Word.

So rejecting T2U's suggestion above - let us embrace the teaching of Christ in Matt 6 "When you Pray - pray in this way". And let us observe that Christ directs us ONLY to God - alone.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:
...is that the RC position has been that that it is NOT the spirit of the dead that "you must not conjur" but rather the "corpse of the dead" because ONLY the corpse IS dead - conjuring up their spirit is NOT conjuring up the dead or speaking to the dead - because the dead are really not dead.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brian T --
Even though you have repeatedly made this slanderous accusation, you have so far failed to cite a single teaching of the Church which states (or even implies) that anyone is permitted to "conjure up" anything - body or spirit.

Your response "only works" for the reader that has NOT followed the Catholic posts so far.

The RC position has been.

#1. Samuel IS REALLY being brought UP from the DEAD in 1Sam 28 - AND he is NOT actually DEAD - only his BODY is DEAD.

#2. Moses is REALLY being brought up from the DEAD in Matt 17 - AND he is NOT actually DEAD -- only the BODY is DEAD.

#3. The Bible restriction AGAINST communicating with the dead - conjuring up the dead CAN ONLY apply to that WHICH IS dead - which is ONLY the body. NOTHING else is actually DEAD.


These are the positions taken by the RC posts on THIS thread.

How can you "pretend" not to understand the sequence above and observe how it turns the text to ONLY restrict communication with dead corpses BY NOT including the SPIRIT of the dead as BEING DEAD and thus ALLOWING the 1 Sam 28 and Matt 17 actions of supposedly "DEAD people".???

Hello!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by BrianT:
Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Do you plan on spending eternity in the body you are in now? I would hope not, and since I can assume you don't think that I must ask you what you think Jesus is going to resurrect?

Actually, yes I do. Christ will resurrect my body (not give me a new body unrelated to my current body), and it will be changed so that it is glorified and incorruptible (1 Cor 15). Just like Jesus, who was the first-born of the dead, who still had his nailprints in his hands - he didn't get a new body either, but a glorified, incorruptible one.

Ok, you are right, I didn't make myself clear enough. Do you plan on spending eternity in your body the way it is NOW is what I meant! Then it should be simple for you. WHY would God send you to heaven at death, and then have Jesus return you to your body when the Second Advent occurs? Jesus, did HE go to heaven before He was Glorified? We are going to do EXACTLY what He did, otherwise He would be the ONLY fruit from the dead! We are going to do EXACTLY what He did. From the time He died, until the time He was raised from the dead by God, DID HE GO TO HEAVEN?

If YOU are already in heaven, WHY would He resurrect your old decaying dead body? There is a reason. Because you are in it.

You previously talked about the spirit leaving the body. At the resurrection, the spirit returns.

There is absolutely NO scriptural support for that. There is not one single verse that states that YOU leave your body in the form of a spirit, go to heaven, and then are going to be brought back down in spirit form, reinserted into your body, and then changed. YOU are going to SLEEP, just as the Bible said. It DOES NOT say that your BODY is sleeping. It said the SAINTS are sleeping. It said that the DEAD IN CHRIST are sleeping. It does not say the BODY is sleeping.

You are not a mixture of spirit and body, but a mixture of clay and breath.
I am both.

Ok, that was a trick statement. body=clay and spirit=breath. You caught it! You are not A spirit and A body. You are a living soul, a nephesh chay, made up of clay and breath or body and spirit.

WHY would Jesus come to the earth, and take those who are ALREADY in heaven to their old bodies and put them back, only to turn around and give them new bodies? That just doesn't make sense.
Because it's NOT "new" bodies, it's the old bodies made glorified and incorruptible.

Ok, it's not that part that doesn't make sense. You are missing the point and arguing semantics. I say 'new' you say 'changed'. Please respond to the POINT. Why would Jesus come to earth, and take those who are ALREADY in heaven to their old bodies but them back, only to turn around and change them? You don't get it do you? You don't have anything that can go to heaven yet! Did you see that question? I posted it to someone else, I think.

Show me from the Bible where it says that man has ANYTHING that can go to heaven RIGHT NOW.

Here is what makes sense. Jesus is coming for the DEAD in Christ. Those who died, and are waiting, in an unconscious sleep for His return. He will 'bring' those with Him to the Living in Christ because He is going to raise them from the dead before the living are caught up! It is simple.
No, that does not make sense, because you are completely changing the meaning of "bring with" (dictionaries are wonderful things!). I believe Christ will *bring* with him those that have died, and resurrected their bodies.

Well of course it doesn't make sense, you cut the paragraph in half! I am NOT changing the meaning of BRING. He is bringing the dead in Christ with Him because He is going to raise them from the dead BEFORE He changes the living. So MID AIR He is going to raise and change the dead, BRING them with Him to earth, and change the living. WE WILL NOT prevent those who are ASLEEP.

He is going to raise the dead first, just as the passage says, for we who are alive will not PREVENT those who are 'asleep'. NOW, unless you think you are going to be sleeping in heaven, that word is referring to the dead in Christ.
Not if only our bodies are sleeping, and are spirits go to heaven. If only our bodies are sleeping, and our spirits go to heaven, the passage of Christ *bringing* people with him while at the same time resurrecting their bodies makes perfect sense.

I issue you a challenge. Find one verse that says that your spirit is going to go to heaven. Just one. Also, show me in that passage where it says just your body is going to be sleeping. When Lazarus of Bethany died, and Jesus WOKE HIM UP was it just his body that was sleeping? Where did his spirit go for 3 days? This should be good.

Think about this: consider the parable (a parable is not a fable!) of the rich man and Lazarus.

I'm glad you noted that. The rich man and lazarus is a wonderful parable. There are others too.

They are conscious after their bodies have died. Now ask yourself: Why would Jesus, who was certainly wise enough to have instead told a parable where the events were not only doctrinally true but also describe a real event, tell a parable that contained lies and a scenario that was exactly opposite to what actually happens???

Because THAT is what a parable is.

Remember, a parable is not a fable, they are very different. A fable is a made up story, often containing impossibilities (talking animals, etc.) to make a point. A parable is a story that is contains events that are both possible and literal, to make a point.

Interesting perspective, so are you rocky soil or thorn infested soil? Are you one of the virgins that had oil, or did you run out? A parable is not a story at all, it is an object lesson. It is intended to make you think. You read it, and you must use wisdom to perceive what should replace the words used, to gain the understanding. Why is it that everyone wants to take the Rich man and Lazarus parable literally? Why do you? Do you take all the others literall? Are you going to starve yourself so that you can shrink and be the size of a grain of mustard seed? There are LOTS of parables in the teachings of Christ, and not ONE of them are LITERAL! They are all 'cloaks' so that only the wise know what He meant.

I simply cannot understand how those who believe in soul sleep, who if they were present when Jesus told this parable, would have said "Jesus, that's a lie, people aren't conscious after their bodies die".

I guess they were all hoping to end up in Abrahams bosom. Right? That's why it is the ONLY place in scripture that place is spoken of, right? That's why ALL the Jew's said to their loved ones, 'I'll see you in Abrahams bosom'!!!! RIGHT??? DO you know what the OT Saints said when they knew they were dying? "I am going to SLEEP with my fathers". SLEEP. Not 'my body will sleep while I go to Abrahams bosom', but I AM going to sleep!

Do you know how rediculous that is? The idea that all the Jews ACTUALLY believed that they were going to a place in the lower parts of the earth with a great gulf fixed between them where they would be able to see the wicked being tormented, while they sat in Abrahams lap!

Here is what they believed:

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

1Ki 1:21 Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

And suprisingly enough, SO DID the Apostles!

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

And for some odd reason they thought that it had been going on SINCE CREATION!!! What a bunch of wackos!

Seriously though. Even the wackos knew what was going to happen to them when they died!

You want to know how we know the truth? READ THE WORD.

Unlearned men, and learned men alike can READ THE WORD.

Where is David? Is he in heaven right now? Do you think he is hanging out with Samuel and Jacob?

The Bible tells us where he is.

READ THE WORD.

"So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David." 1 Kings 2:10

Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (speaking of Jesus)
Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

David spoke of Christ, in a Messianic prophecy, that HIS SOUL would not see corruption. Not His body, but HIS SOUL. That is because your body, without the SPIRIT (the breath of LIFE) is DEAD. When Christ DIED, the Spirit which animated Him went back to God, and He was DEAD. D.E.A.D. DEAD. But God did NOT leave His SOUL in HELL!!! What the hell would Jesus's SOUL be doing in HELL!!! That is simple. Hell is the GRAVE. And on top of all that, Jesus's body did not corrupt. It didn't start to decay, not even one bit. He woke up on the third day, in perfect condition, and with His wounds healed to boot!

They are all sleeping.

Look up Solomon. Look at what happened when he died. Look at Jeraboam. They ALL slept with their fathers.

Now unless you think there was some incest going on, you must agree that means that they were dead.

If it means they were dead, then not only did the Jews believe in Soul Sleep but so did Peter.

I doubt very seriously that Peter would have told that entire group at Pentecost that David was dead and in the grave where they buried him if he was indeed in heaven with Christ!

Think about it.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[thessalonian]

Matthew 27:52
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.


How do you know David wasn't among this group? Seems likely to me he was.

How could the theif on the cross be with him in paradise if he was ALL asleep in the ground? We know of course that his body was.

How could Abraham talk to the man across the divide if he was asleep.

You have no proof of soul sleep and in fact it is a heresy condemned by the one true Church. It's a lie.

Blessings

 

[BobRyan]

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

This is AFTER Matt 27 - by the way.

And the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" WITHOUT trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the PERSON is in fact NOT dead).

1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".

1Thess 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.>>

John 11:
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''[/b]
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,

1Cor 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
…
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as We have borne the image of the earthy, We will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1Thess 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

Now "here" is a "real problem". Already on this subject area it has been speculated "that bring with Him" means "those who are ALIVE in heaven and not in fact sleeping or in any way Dead".

But the text directly refutes that "those He brings are NOT asleep".

bring with Him those who have fallen Asleep in Jesus

How can we "edit that" so it wont say that anymore?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Ok, you are right, I didn't make myself clear enough. Do you plan on spending eternity in your body the way it is NOW is what I meant! Then it should be simple for you. WHY would God send you to heaven at death, and then have Jesus return you to your body when the Second Advent occurs?

Because *if* our spirits go to heaven while our bodies remain in the ground, the resurrection of our bodies would require the spirit to be reunited with the body, or else you have both your living body and your living spirit in different places at the same time.

Jesus, did HE go to heaven before He was Glorified? We are going to do EXACTLY what He did, otherwise He would be the ONLY fruit from the dead! We are going to do EXACTLY what He did. From the time He died, until the time He was raised from the dead by God, DID HE GO TO HEAVEN?

I'm not sure what happend to Christ during those three days, and I'm not sure what he did with and without his body. I do know that we WON'T do exactly as he did, for Acts 2 tells us his body didn't see corruption, which I understand to mean it didn't start the decomposition process at all.

If YOU are already in heaven, WHY would He resurrect your old decaying dead body? There is a reason. Because you are in it.

You previously talked about the spirit leaving the body. At the resurrection, the spirit returns.

There is absolutely NO scriptural support for that. There is not one single verse that states that YOU leave your body in the form of a spirit, go to heaven, and then are going to be brought back down in spirit form, reinserted into your body, and then changed.[/quote]

First, to expand my last answer a bit, if we are already in heaven, resurrection of our bodies would still be necessary, because redemption includes everything, not just our spirit. All of creation was affected by the fall of Adam and Eve, and all of creation must be either destroyed or restored.

As to verses, numerous scripture talks about "giving up the ghost" when we die, including Christ. When Stephen was stoned he said "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." In Rev, we see souls under the altar in heaven. Rev 19 talks about armies *in heaven* that return with Christ, clothed in "fine linen, white and clean" which just a few verses prior says "the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." Rev 7 has a great multitude of humans in heaven around the throne, before Christ returns, who are definitely conscious. Jude 1:14 says Christ comes "with" saints, not just "for" saints. These are just the ones off the top of my head, there are probably others.

YOU are going to SLEEP, just as the Bible said. It DOES NOT say that your BODY is sleeping.

Sometime "you" in scripture means just your body, sometimes it means more. So "sleep" *could* just be referring to the physical body.

Ok, that was a trick statement. body=clay and spirit=breath. You caught it! You are not A spirit and A body. You are a living soul, a nephesh chay, made up of clay and breath or body and spirit.

While it's true the word translated as spirit can often mean "breath", it also sometimes means much more. Would it make sense for Stephen to say "receive my breath"? In 1 Thess 5:23, Paul talks of preservation of "your whole spirit and soul and body". Yet in your system, preservation of the spirit does not happen. In other places, he says "The Lord Jesus Christ [be] with thy spirit." Is he saying he wants Jesus to simply be with our breath? Rev 4 has John transported to heaven, and he says "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." He was in his breath? Rev 18:2 mentions foul spirits - is this just "bad breath".

Why would Jesus come to earth, and take those who are ALREADY in heaven to their old bodies but them back, only to turn around and change them? You don't get it do you? You don't have anything that can go to heaven yet! Did you see that question? I posted it to someone else, I think.

Yes, I get what you're saying, I just disagree. I believe at dead I *do* have something that can go to heaven, a spirit. My body, as part of physical creation, is still under the curse of sin and must therefore remain behind until he makes "all things new", and resurrect our bodies incorruptible. Meanwhile though, my spirit, because of redeption through Christ, is able to go to heaven.

I am NOT changing the meaning of BRING. He is bringing the dead in Christ with Him because He is going to raise them from the dead BEFORE He changes the living.

Yes, you are changing the meaning of "bring". I see you are from California. Let's say you were going to come up and visit me in Canada, and you were going to "bring" with you some tomato plants. Now, I already have some *dead* tomato plants here. By very definition of "bring", bringing tomato plants with you means you have tomato plants in California that you pack with your luggage, and the accompany you until you get to my house. "Bringing tomato plants with you" does NOT mean you leave home empty-handed and just resurrect the dead ones I already have when you get here.

I issue you a challenge. Find one verse that says that your spirit is going to go to heaven. Just one.

I believe the passages I mentioned above suffice.

Also, show me in that passage where it says just your body is going to be sleeping.

I probably can't find one that explicitly sais that, but numerous passages talk of the "body" being resurrected. None speak of the spirit being resurrected. Can you show me any?

When Lazarus of Bethany died, and Jesus WOKE HIM UP was it just his body that was sleeping? Where did his spirit go for 3 days? This should be good.

Yes, I believe just his body was "sleeping", and that his spirit was in heaven (or at least in "Abraham's bosom", which is perhaps where the righteous went until Christ's resurrection/ascension.) I doubt the Lazarus that Jesus resurrected was the same Lazarus as in the parable, but it wouldn't surprise me too much if it was.

They are conscious after their bodies have died. Now ask yourself: Why would Jesus, who was certainly wise enough to have instead told a parable where the events were not only doctrinally true but also describe a real event, tell a parable that contained lies and a scenario that was exactly opposite to what actually happens???

Because THAT is what a parable is.

No, that is NOT what a parable is, that's what a FABLE is. A fable is a short, false or litrally impossible story that teaches a moral or makes a point. A parable is a short, literally possible story that teaches a moral or makes a point. Are you saying that Jesus, the Son of God, employed falsehoods in his teaching, especially when he didn't have to (ie. could have made his point *without* using falsehoods)???

Interesting perspective, so are you rocky soil or thorn infested soil? Are you one of the virgins that had oil, or did you run out?

No, you misunderstand. A parable doesn't require all it's symbols apply to me personally, but it does require that all it's symbols be literally possible. Rocky soil exists. Virgins with oil is physically possible. Fables (like with talking animals) are not physically possible. All people, objects, events in parables must be phyiscally possible - that's what differentiates a parable from a fable.

A parable is not a story at all, it is an object lesson. It is intended to make you think. You read it, and you must use wisdom to perceive what should replace the words used, to gain the understanding.

True, but so does a fable. The difference between a fable and a parable is that a fable uses impossible scenarios to accomplish this, while a parable does not.

There are LOTS of parables in the teachings of Christ, and not ONE of them are LITERAL! They are all 'cloaks' so that only the wise know what He meant.

By definition, the scenarios used must be literally possible. Jesus taught by parables, not by fables. Was Jesus being stupid or deceitful, in that he used falsehoods in his stories when he could have used true events?

Do you know how rediculous that is? The idea that all the Jews ACTUALLY believed that they were going to a place in the lower parts of the earth with a great gulf fixed between them where they would be able to see the wicked being tormented, while they sat in Abrahams lap!

Why did Jesus use this "ridiculous" scenario then, when he could have used a different, true scenario? Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH, and the life. Everything he said must be true. Everything. Regardless how "ridiculous" you or anyone else thinks it is.

Where is David? Is he in heaven right now? Do you think he is hanging out with Samuel and Jacob?

Yes, his spirit is, his body is decayed on earth somewhere, sleeping.

The Bible tells us where he is.

READ THE WORD.

"So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David." 1 Kings 2:10

Yes, his body is.

Look up Solomon. Look at what happened when he died. Look at Jeraboam. They ALL slept with their fathers.

Yes, we are not in disagreement about this. We are simply in disagreement about *what* is sleeping.

I doubt very seriously that Peter would have told that entire group at Pentecost that David was dead and in the grave where they buried him if he was indeed in heaven with Christ!

Why? David's body was dead and buried. That doesn't preclude his spirit being with God in heaven.

Brian

 

[BobRyan]

In the Bible it is ALWAYS the PERSON that "sleeps" never "their body".

"Our Friend Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM". John 11.

The speculation that has been offerred us as an alternative is "Our friend Lazarus is ALIVE and living in Heaven but HIS body is asleep rotting in the ground I go that I may awaken IT".

hmmmm - PERSON or Body that "sleeps".

Is "sleep - decaying into DIRT" or is "sleep" innactive spirit in heaven - the PERSON?

This is going to be a hard one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[3AngelsMom]

Part ONE:

Originally posted by BrianT:
Because *if* our spirits go to heaven while our bodies remain in the ground, the resurrection of our bodies would require the spirit to be reunited with the body, or else you have both your living body and your living spirit in different places at the same time.

Yes, and *if* the Bible said that, we would all believe it. But, since it DOES NOT SAY THAT, we must look at the whole of scripture on this topic, and not base our doctrine on one parable, and a few obscure comments made by the Apostles.

I'm not sure what happend to Christ during those three days, and I'm not sure what he did with and without his body. I do know that we WON'T do exactly as he did, for Acts 2 tells us his body didn't see corruption, which I understand to mean it didn't start the decomposition process at all.

Ok, so you have completely ignored the question. DID Jesus go to heaven when He died? Jesus died, was buried and then was resurrected, regardless of whether His body saw corruption, it is the BEST example we have of what will happen to us. DID He go to heaven between the time He died and the time He was resurrected?

First, to expand my last answer a bit, if we are already in heaven, resurrection of our bodies would still be necessary, because redemption includes everything, not just our spirit. All of creation was affected by the fall of Adam and Eve, and all of creation must be either destroyed or restored.

I'm glad you pointed out your apparent contradiction. If redemption includes your body, what the heck are you doing in heaven? We are going to be redeemed ONCE. Jesus is BRINGING something with Him when He returns, our REWARD. That reward is Eternal Life, Immortality. Something YOU DON'T HAVE YET.

As to verses, numerous scripture talks about "giving up the ghost" when we die, including Christ. When Stephen was stoned he said "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (pneuma 1)a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze)
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

What happened there? Stephen fell asleep. He said 'receive my spirit'. Let the Bible interpret itself.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ruwach 1) wind, breath, mind, spirit)

What spirit would that be?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.(n@shamah 1) breath, spirit 1a) breath (of God) 1b) breath (of man) 1c) every breathing thing)

Three different words all having the same meaning. All saying the same thing.

1. Spirit=pneuma 1)a current of air, i.e. breath
2. Spirit=ruwach 1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
3. Spirit=n@shamah 1) breath, spirit

In Rev, we see souls under the altar in heaven.

Ok, you know what a soul is. It is a LIVING person. Dust and breath. Body and Spirit. WHAT would LIVING SOULS be doing in heaven, under an altar, being told to GO BACK TO SLEEP??? Try again. It's figurative.

Rev 19 talks about armies *in heaven* that return with Christ, clothed in "fine linen, white and clean" which just a few verses prior says "the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

First of all, Revelation is not in cronological order. Secondly, the people who were HEARD by John were not IN heaven, but the sound he heard came from heaven because that is where the vision was coming from. The end of chapter 19 is the Second Coming of Christ. When the first resurrection will take place, and the Dead in Christ will rise first, and the living in Christ will be caught up together with Him in the air. THEN will we be with the Lord forever. Not until then.

Rev 7 has a great multitude of humans in heaven around the throne, before Christ returns, who are definitely conscious.

Again, Revelation is not chronological. Chapter 7 is a summary of events that will take place over several days, perhaps even weeks, some estimate years. But we do know that it is not going to take place BEFORE the 7 plagues fall, and those aren't told until chapter 15! It would be impossible for those who die during the tribulation to be in heaven, at the same time that the 144,000 are being sealed. Because, only those who are sealed will be able to resist the mark of the beast. Only those who are sealed by God will die in the tribulation. So, the sealing takes place, then immediately John sees people in heaven? It isn't chronological. Remember that.
14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Jude 1:14 says Christ comes "with" saints, not just "for" saints.

That verse is talking about the Great White Throne judgment, which takes place AFTER the Millenium, which takes place after the Second Coming, so Jude 14 doesn't have anything to do with people who are dying RIGHT NOW.

These are just the ones off the top of my head, there are probably others.

There aren't.

Sometime "you" in scripture means just your body, sometimes it means more. So "sleep" *could* just be referring to the physical body.

Where does 'you' just refer to your body? Show me some. Sleep can mean more than one thing, it can mean taking rest in sleep, or it can mean death. In every verse that I have shown where dead is the subject, it is called sleep, and in not ONE of those verses does it say it is only talking about the body.

While it's true the word translated as spirit can often mean "breath", it also sometimes means much more. Would it make sense for Stephen to say "receive my breath"?

Absolutely, as shown above through scripture.

In 1 Thess 5:23, Paul talks of preservation of "your whole spirit and soul and body". Yet in your system, preservation of the spirit does not happen.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And what indication do you have that this passage is speaking of death? Do you think that your body is going to be preserved until the coming of Jesus? It is not a LITERAL preservation Paul is talking about. He is talking about you being preserved BLAMELESS. Paul is praying that THEY, their spirit, their body, their soul, be preseved BLAMELESS until the coming of Christ, so that AT the coming of Christ, THEY get to go to heaven!
Does that mean that each man has a body, with a spirit and a separate soul in it? We went through the composition of man a few times now, and God told us already what we are made up of and what happens at death. Let's stick with that, and quit speculating based on ONE verse that Paul wrote. Remember Peters warning about Pauls writings. We don't want to use Pauls writings as a crutch for an entire doctrine. That is the ONLY verse in the Bible which says anything about a man having a body, a spirit, and a soul. Another point is that in this very chapter, which is actually about the second coming, Paul states that there will be two groups at the second coming 1.the sleeping and 2. the awake. But we know one thing for sure:
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

In other places, he says "The Lord Jesus Christ [be] with thy spirit." Is he saying he wants Jesus to simply be with our breath?

No. It is not your breath. The Spirit of God which animates all living creatures is not OUR Spirit, or breath, but God's!
Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Look at the spirit that Paul spoke of in
1 Cor 5:4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
When? When will that spirit be saved? When it died? NO. In the DAY of the Lord Jesus. That is the Second Coming. NOT the day they die.

To be continued........

 

[3AngelsMom]

Part TWO

Rev 4 has John transported to heaven, and he says "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." He was in his breath?

He was in the Spirit of God. The Spirit of Prophecy, in vision.

Rev 18:2 mentions foul spirits - is this just "bad breath".

Funny. There is several definitions of spirit. I showed that above. As well as different words. There are spirits, angels and demons, Spirit, of God, and Spirit, of man. The Spirit of God, is what GOES BACK to God, who gave it. Your spirit sleeps, because it isn't really a spirit at all, but rather your mind, which is poetically called 'spirit'. A TRUE spirit can move about unseen. Angels, demons, God. Your person, your psyche, or mind, is a 'spirit' in the Bible. It is not a ghost. This is all pagan theology that you are standing on, and you aren't going to get the Bible to support it. The bible clearly teaches that we sleep awaiting the reserrection. There is not ONE SINGLE verse that states that the Resurrection is of the body only.

Yes, I get what you're saying, I just disagree. I believe at dead I *do* have something that can go to heaven, a spirit. My body, as part of physical creation, is still under the curse of sin and must therefore remain behind until he makes "all things new", and resurrect our bodies incorruptible. Meanwhile though, my spirit, because of redeption through Christ, is able to go to heaven.

That makes no sense. Your spirit is YOU. You are a living soul, with a mind, which is your spirit. Your mind cannot go to heaven, until your body is redeemed from the earth. YOU are under the curse of sin, not just your body. Where are you coming up with this stuff? Your 'spirit' EVEN IF it was a separate entity, COULD NOT go to heaven until Christ comes and chages us. Nothing about a man in immortal. NOTHING. Yet.

Yes, you are changing the meaning of "bring". I see you are from California. Let's say you were going to come up and visit me in Canada, and you were going to "bring" with you some tomato plants. Now, I already have some *dead* tomato plants here. By very definition of "bring", bringing tomato plants with you means you have tomato plants in California that you pack with your luggage, and the accompany you until you get to my house. "Bringing tomato plants with you" does NOT mean you leave home empty-handed and just resurrect the dead ones I already have when you get here.

Big difference between me flying to Canada and landing. Jesus isn't going to land. He is coming and in mid air will raise the dead, then we who are alive will be CAUGHT UP with Him. Then we will all go back to heaven. The earth will be desolate from all the plagues and hail, and satan will be bound on the earth for 1000 years with no one to tempt. During that time the saints will be in heaven going through the 'books' and judging the dead. The wicked. Anyway, Jesus isn't going to land. Plus, I don't have the power to resurrect dead tomato plants, trust me, I've tried.

I issue you a challenge. Find one verse that says that your spirit is going to go to heaven. Just one.
I believe the passages I mentioned above suffice.

Ok, all you had to say was you couldn't find one. Admit it, you can't find one.

Also, show me in that passage where it says just your body is going to be sleeping.
I probably can't find one that explicitly says that, but numerous passages talk of the "body" being resurrected. None speak of the spirit being resurrected. Can you show me any?

What verses talk of a body being resurrected? Can you show me any? All the verses regarding the resurrection say the 'resurrection of the DEAD'. It doesn't say 'body of the dead'. It said 'the dead'. Your spirit will be sleeping, because all your spirit is is your mind. Your mind is what you think, believe, feel. It will sleep awaiting the resurrection, and when Jesus comes, with the voice of Michael, and the Trumpet of God, the dead will have life put back in them, through the same Spirit that animated them before! Then they will be alive again. That Spirit that animated them before, was the Breath of Life FROM GOD.

When Lazarus of Bethany died, and Jesus WOKE HIM UP was it just his body that was sleeping? Where did his spirit go for 3 days? This should be good.
Yes, I believe just his body was "sleeping", and that his spirit was in heaven (or at least in "Abraham's bosom", which is perhaps where the righteous went until Christ's resurrection/ascension.) I doubt the Lazarus that Jesus resurrected was the same Lazarus as in the parable, but it wouldn't surprise me too much if it was.

Well it would suprise me, becuase Lazarus of Bethany wasn't a poor man who was laid at the gates of a rich man's house! And secondly the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus was told before Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead! ALSO, there is no evidence of Lazarus telling anyone ANYTHING about anything he saw while dead. Don't you think that was kind of strange?

No, that is NOT what a parable is, that's what a FABLE is. A fable is a short, false or litrally impossible story that teaches a moral or makes a point. A parable is a short, literally possible story that teaches a moral or makes a point. Are you saying that Jesus, the Son of God, employed falsehoods in his teaching, especially when he didn't have to (ie. could have made his point *without* using falsehoods)???

Absolutely. He appealed to the intellect of the general populous. The majority of them had no idea what He was talking about. Are you even aware of the fact that the RM&L parable has a meaning? And it isn't that we die and go to Abrahams bosom!

Interesting perspective, so are you rocky soil or thorn infested soil? Are you one of the virgins that had oil, or did you run out?

No, you misunderstand. A parable doesn't require all it's symbols apply to me personally, but it does require that all it's symbols be literally possible.

WRONG. Parables are symoblic, whether possible, or impossible, they were all symbolic. WHY do you want to take the Rich man and Lazarus parable literally?

A parable is not a story at all, it is an object lesson. It is intended to make you think. You read it, and you must use wisdom to perceive what should replace the words used, to gain the understanding.
True, but so does a fable. The difference between a fable and a parable is that a fable uses impossible scenarios to accomplish this, while a parable does not.

Says who? Where do you come up with this stuff? Parables were the way that Jesus taught the people, in object lessons, that taught them things, but they had to have 'an ear' to hear. Fables are cunningly devised FALSE doctrines that the Pharisees, and NOW the Pharisees of today, the Apostate Churches teach! FABLES. Jesus taught using a NEVER BEFORE HEARD OF senario that DOES NOT EXIST to explain a moral that YOU most likely don't even get. Because you are so blinded by your LITERAL interpretation of it, you haven't stopped to think about what it means! Back up, take off your tradition goggles and think about what it might MEAN. The meaning is RIGHT THERE IN THE PARABLE! Just like all the other parables! That are IMPOSSIBLE.

By definition, the scenarios used must be literally possible.

Wrong. Who defines this for you? It is not literally possible for all MEN and WOMEN to be virgins waiting for the second coming! So, is that not a parable? It is impossible for me to be a place of stony ground, and seeds to fall on me and try to grow, so is that not a parable too? You aren't making sense here. Parables don't have to be possible, they are meant to convey a message that is NOT in the actual words of the parable. You must replace the words in the parable with the meaning. THEN they are possible.

Jesus taught by parables, not by fables. Was Jesus being stupid or deceitful, in that he used falsehoods in his stories when he could have used true events?

That's rediculous. Stupid or deceitful? He used impossible senarios to make the people have to think. His Apostles asked Him why He did that! He told them He was doing it on purpose because they were too hard headed to get it in the first place!

Do you know how rediculous that is? The idea that all the Jews ACTUALLY believed that they were going to a place in the lower parts of the earth with a great gulf fixed between them where they would be able to see the wicked being tormented, while they sat in Abrahams lap!
Why did Jesus use this "ridiculous" scenario then, when he could have used a different, true scenario? Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH, and the life. Everything he said must be true. Everything. Regardless how "ridiculous" you or anyone else thinks it is.

Everything He said must be true? So then I must have a mustard seed in me, so I can walk up to mountains and move them? HELLO???? Do you know what figurative means? Jesus described something to the people, that IS NOT REAL, so that they would have to think about what He meant. You know there were people there who got His meanings? They perceived that Jesus was speaking AGAINST them. The Jews. The RML parable has a meaning.

Where is David? Is he in heaven right now? Do you think he is hanging out with Samuel and Jacob?
Yes, his spirit is, his body is decayed on earth somewhere, sleeping.

SO I guess Peter is a liar. He was only lying when he said that David has not gone to heaven. RIGHT? You know he said that right?

Yes, we are not in disagreement about this. We are simply in disagreement about *what* is sleeping.

David, and his son Solomon and his son Jeraboam are all sleeping in the ground. They are together in the ground. Sleeping. THEY ARE. Not their bodies, but the actual person. Even THEY KNEW THAT!!

Why? David's body was dead and buried. That doesn't preclude his spirit being with God in heaven.

Do you have any idea what Peter was talking about when he said this? He was talking about the resurrection of the dead, Jesus to be exact. Jesus was resurrected from the dead, after NOT GOING TO HEAVEN when He died, but sleeping in the grave. He didn't go anywhere while He was dead. He ALSO said, 'into your hands I commit my spirit' before He died, but yet DID NOT GO TO HEAVEN the day He died.

Peter made it clear. You want to deny it, that's your right.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[BrianT]

3AngelsMom,

I'm not interested in getting this involved in this debate. It's getting too lengthy, and to circular. I've made it clear that I believe that "sleep" refers to the body only, yet many of your responses try to make me look self-contradictory because *you* apply "sleep" to more than the body. I am not contradicting myself, because I am not using your definition in the first place. It appears we interpret scriptures quite differently, and I'll leave it at that.

One point I do want to clairfy, not so much to continue the debate but to simply clear up a misunderstanding:

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
It is not literally possible for all MEN and WOMEN to be virgins waiting for the second coming!
....
Everything He said must be true? So then I must have a mustard seed in me, so I can walk up to mountains and move them.

Again, you misunderstand what I'm saying. I said "A parable doesn't require all it's symbols apply to me personally, but it does require that all it's symbols be literally possible. Rocky soil exists." When I'm talking about the literally possible aspects of parables, I'm NOT talking about the symbolism and scenarios being literally applied (ie. I become a virgin woman, you have a mustard seed in you), but about the symbolism and scenarios being literally possible before the point of the parable is applied. I'm saying a fable uses allegory where the *scenario* is false or physically impossible, while a parable uses allegory where the *scenario* is NOT false or physically impossible.

For example: Christ's parable about the 10 virgins with lamps of oil - it is literally possible for 10 virgins to have lamps of oil. Period. This scenario is not impossible, like it would be if there were talking foxes with lamps of oil instead. In Christ's parable about the woman looking for the coin - it is literally possible for a woman to loose a coin and sweep her house looking for it. Period. In the parable of the sower - it is physically possible for someone to spread seed on different types of ground, and for birds and weeds to affect the planting. Period. In the parable of the nobleman leaving to receive a kingdom and leaving his servants behind, it is literally possible for this to happen. Period.

All the parables are like this: the events of the parable, before you even deal with the interpretation of the parable, are literally possible scenarios. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the scenario has to be literally possible as well, or it is not a parable, but a fable (and would also be completely unique in that it was NOT literally possible when all other parables are, and would also be completely unique in that Christ is using a *false, impossible* scenario when Christ could have told a different parable instead that used a literally possible scenario.) Regardless of what the "point" or interpretation of a parable is, what makes it a parable in the first place is that the scenario in the story is physically possible - and this must include the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where people's spirits were conscious, and sent to appropriate places, after death.

Christ told parables, not fables.

Brian

 

[BobRyan]

In the "parable" of the Rich man and Lazarus - Abraham "alone" is in sovereign control of all dead saints. The Lost in hell appeal DIRECTLY to Abraham ALONE. Abraham alone renders the decisions.

Parables are NOT news accounts of local Jerusalem news.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
In the Bible it is ALWAYS the PERSON that "sleeps" never "their body".

"Our Friend Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM". John 11.

The speculation that has been offerred us as an alternative is "Our friend Lazarus is ALIVE and living in Heaven but HIS body is asleep rotting in the ground I go that I may awaken IT".

hmmmm - PERSON or Body that "sleeps".

Is "sleep - decaying into DIRT" or is "sleep" innactive spirit in heaven - the PERSON?

This is going to be a hard one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BrianT]

Phil 1:21-23 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. [22] But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. [23] For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:" (Why would Paul prefer death? Because it means to depart and to be with Christ!)

2 Cor 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle [our physical body] were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. [2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:"

2 Cor 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Matt 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (how can men kill the body but not kill the soul, if the soul doesn't live on?)

 

[3AngelsMom]

BrianT,

You didn't want to answer my question, so I will answer it for you.

You don't have anything that is immortal right now, and the Word of God will prove it.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

'breath of life'-
05397 n@shamah {nesh-aw-maw'}
AV - breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24
1) breath, spirit 1a) breath (of God) 1b) breath (of man) 1c) every breathing thing 1d) spirit (of man)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

'spirit'- (ruwach), breath, wind, blast.

Job 27:3 (KJV)
3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

'breath'- (nashama)-breath
'spirit'-(ruwach)- breath, wind, blast.

Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

'breath'- (ruwach) breath, wind, blast (note same as spirit in last verse)
Note: In the day he dies HIS THOUGHTS perish
Perish- 06 'abad {aw-bad'}
AV - perish 98, destroy 62, lose 10, fail 2, surely 2, utterly 2, broken 1, destruction 1, escape 1, flee 1, spendeth 1, take 1, undone 1, void 1; 184

1 Timothy 6:15 (KJV)
15Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Note: the PRESENT TENSE of the verb HATH. That means JUST HIM, HATH IMMORTALITY. That means RIGHT NOW He is the ONLY one who is immortal. HATH. RIGHT NOW.

Romans 2:7 (KJV)
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Let's see, this was a LONG time ago, and they were SEEKING immortality. Who was? Those who were ALREADY serving God. THE SAVED. So if they were ALREADY saved, why were they seeking immortality and eternal life? If they already have it why seek it? HMMMM

1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV)
51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Lets see, at the last trump, THEN we will put on immortality, THEN we will be changed. ALL will be changed. None of us are already immortal, otherwise why would we need to change?
Note: the 8 instances of the word 'shall' those are all FUTURE tense.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV)
17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Those who are 'dead', or not alive in their bodies anymore, DO NOT praise the Lord. Now, if you die, and you go straight to Heaven, don't you think you will be praising Him? This verse likens the dead people to those who are mute. The mute do not speak just as the dead do not speak.

Psalm 6:5 (KJV)
5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Those dead do not remember anything, nor give thanks. If they were in heaven, don't you think they would remember and give thanks?

Job 19:25 (KJV)
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

HMMM, sounds like this person, Job, knows that worms will eat his body, and that in the last day he will be resurrected with a new body to see God. Doesn't sound like he believed in dualism.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

'soul' 05315 nephesh {neh'-fesh}
AV - soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8....

This is the same 'soul' used in Genesis 2:7 when God made Adam a 'living soul' out of dirt and 'spirit' or breath as it is called there.

The SOUL shall die. DIE. Why is that a confusing term for some. If a bug dies what is it? DIRT. The same

 

[3AngelsMom]

Continued........

The same breath that makes you alive makes that bug alive, and when you die, you too return to DIRT.

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wage (payment) is death. YOU are saved, and again, you have NOT spent that 'redemption' yet.

2 Timothy 4:7 (KJV)
7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

It is laid up, or put away, 'saved', and the Lord 'shall' (there's that future tense again) give it to us at THAT day. Which day? The day He appears.

Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

IF Jesus has the reward with Him, how could you already have it? (uh oh, there's that shall again)

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

They KNOW nothing, and have no memory. They DO NOT HAVE their reward.

'For the living know that they shall die.'

Perhaps, that is YOUR problem, you don't think you will die.

You have been duped by the first lie ever told to mankind.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

But what did God tell them?

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now let's compare those:

Ye shall not surely die -SATAN
thou shalt surely die. -GOD

Notice that Satan added just ONE word to God's and started every bit of this doctrine that you hold so tightly to.

That's all it takes. Just a little false to make the WHOLE thing a lie.

God ALONE HAS immortality.

If you cannot dismiss this, THIS DOCTRINE IS FALSE.

By merit of His Glorification by God, Jesus now is immortal.

We are not granted immortality until Christ returns.

Therefore, you don't have anything that could even GO to heaven right now.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Carson Weber]

Kelly, you didn't address the following verse, which Brian presented:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor 5:8).

Also, Paul says the following, which is substantially problematic for your soul annihilation theory:

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account." (Phil 121-24).

Paul has departed, and Paul is with Christ as we speak. You can even ask him to pray for you in heaven if you wish, for we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1).