Praying to the dead - conjuring the dead

[3AngelsMom]

Carson,

I didn't address those verses, because I already have, more than once.

If the 'cloud of witnesses' that surrounds us are people in heaven, how are they surrounding us? IS heaven on earth?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[BobRyan]

Brian T --
Phil 1:21-23 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. [22] But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. [23] For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:" (Why would Paul prefer death? Because it means to depart and to be with Christ!)

2 Cor 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle [our physical body] were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. [2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:"

2 Cor 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

What the text does Not say is "To BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord".

Rather it states that these are TWO different things - desiring to be absent from the earthly decaying body AND also to BE present with the Lord.

In 2Cor 5 there are THREE states mentioned.

1. Alive in this decaying body.
2. Naked and unclothed with any body at all
3. Clothed with our ETERNAL heavenly body.

1Cor 15 already addressed the point to the Corinthians of our ETERNAL heavenly body - at the resurrection.

Brian T
Matt 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (how can men kill the body but not kill the soul, if the soul doesn't live on?)[/b

As my previous post shows - the NT position is NOT the BODY sleeps. The BODY is KILLED even by bad guys here - they can KILL a good person's body.

But because the "spirit of ALL mankind goes back to God who gave it" at death - the Soul is in fact dormant - and preserved in death. "the PERSON" sleeps. "Our Friend Lazarus IS asleep. I go that I may WAKE HIM". John 11.

If you had addressed that point in my post you would not have the question about "the body" vs the PERSON or the Soul.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account." (Phil 1:21-24).
[/quote]

No - Paul has already stated in 1Thess 4 (and in 1Cor 11) that the DEAD in Christ - are in fact those PERSONS that are "asleep" in death.

However in Philippians 1 Paul makes the point that from the standpoint of the one who is dying - death is the gateway to heaven. We do not "see a long period of active conscious waiting" in the grave for those who die. They "know nothing" their "thoughts perish" they don't have any concept of "God". As Christ said "God is not the God of the dead but of the living" when arguing FOR the "Resurrection" - Matt 22.

From the standpoint of the one dying - it is the blink of an eye - instant gateway to the resurrection.

Carson said --
Paul has departed, and Paul is with Christ as we speak. You can even ask him to pray for you in heaven if you wish, for we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1).

#1. Paul never mentions our "praying to anyone in heaven but God -- Alone". Nor does any other NT writer mention it. Nor does any other Bible writer.

#2. The Matt 27 list of saints raised - could well be those mentioned in Heb 12. However EVEN in that case of LIVING saints in heaven - no mention of "praying to them".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Well the subject sure has moved along...

One of my regrets of late is that I don't really have the time to debate, at least in real time.

But since Jesus taught his disciples to pray to his father, and nowhere does he instruct us to do otherwise, the case should be closed. It is with me.

 

[BobRyan]

Well said.

In fact there are no examples of anyone recommending prayer to anyone but God alone in all of the OT AND the NT.

Christ - in his model prayer TEACHES us to pray directly to the Father. NTHER example is given.

No possibility of coming up with the doctrines of praying to the dead - not ancestors, not religious leaders - no one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The interesting point (that has been made by an RC post on this thread already) is that IF you believe that the dead in Christ are in fact very active IN Heaven IN eternal bodies made without hands - AND that they still love care for and minister to the saints on earth - THEN the Matt 17 scenario with Moses PRE-Cross and Christ pre-Cross is very "reasonable" EVEN THOUGH it would be "Conjuring up the dead" by all normal accounts (IF Moses was still dead at that point.)

And of course - there is no real "living Moses" answer for the Matt 22 "argument for the resurrection" when it is observed "God is NOT the God of the dead but of the living".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

We have seen many posts explaining why the RC view is that praying to the "Dead in Christ" 1Thess 4 should be done frequently.

What has received dead silence (though the question has been asked many times) is WHY are there not ANY cases in the 66 books of scripture of ANYONE praying to those that the RCC prays to so frequently - the non-God beings of heaven - or the (dead saint, sleeping saints, sleeping friends of the living saints on earth).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Carson,

I didn't address those verses, because I already have, more than once.

If the 'cloud of witnesses' that surrounds us are people in heaven, how are they surrounding us? IS heaven on earth?

God Bless,
Kelly

Since Carson seems to want to ignore this, is there any other person that agrees with him, who can answer this?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[BobRyan]

I believe our RC bretheren have "run out of texts" on this subject.

In Christ,

Bob