- The Apostle's Creed contains this faith affirmation: "I believe in the communion of saints." The doctrine of the Communion of Saints refers to the interconnected community, living and dead, of all saints on Earth, in Heaven, and yes, even in Purgatory. Hebrews 12:1-2 provides one biblical anchor for this inspiring doctrine:
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses ("martyres"), let us also lay aside every weight and sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith."
This text offers a beautiful image of the Christian life as a great athletic contest taking place in a huge stadium, a contest witnessed by deceased saints who have entered similar athletic contests in ages past and are now cheering us on and supporting us as we strive for victory.
This image cannot be limited to the examples of the OT heroes of faith listed in Hebrews 11 because we are not simply preceded by witnesses; we are currently surrounded by them.
Indeed, in Hebrews the Greek word "martyres" always means "eyewitnesses."
In our worship the kingdom of God has truly come to us and we literally come to the invisible realm of "the heavenly Jerusalem" and to the deceased "spirits of the righteous" who have gone on before us:
"But you have come...to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,...and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits [deceased, but now alive] of the righteous made perfect (Hebrews 12:22-23)."
What a thrilling revelation it is to learn that our deceased loved ones can monitor our progress and remain informed about what God is doing in earthly lives:
"I tell you, there will be more joy in Heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance (Luke 15:7)."
This joy and awareness of earthly events are shared by angels and deceased saints alike:
"Suddenly they [Peter, James, and John] saw 2 men, Moses and Elijah, talking to Him. They appeared in glory and were speaking of His departure, which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem (Luke 9:30-31)."
And how do deceased saints support us and send us aid? Primarily through their intercessory prayers. Catholics pray to deceased saints to obtain their prayer support in making effective petitions before the throne of God:
"I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the witness they had been given; they cried out, "Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?" They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little while until their number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brethren who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed (Revelation 6:9-11)."
John offers his apocalyptic version of the Catholic doctrine of the Communion of Saints:
"When He [the Lamb, Christ] had taken the scroll,...the 24 elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and a golden bowls, full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (both living and deceased--Revelation 5:8)."
Dr. Eugene Boring's Commentary explains the historical background and role of these elders:
"The triumphant authority of these 24 is signified by their crowns and white garments (cp. 2:10; 6:11; 7:9)...These 24 elders represent...a kind of heavenly counterpart to the continuing People of God on Earth (12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles...who are called to reign through faithfulness (p. 106)."
"The title "Lord and God" (4;8) is paralleled by Domitian's insistence that he be addressed by this title. The 24 elders may be influenced by the 24 lictors who surrounded Domitian. The act of the 24 elders placing their crowns before the throne om 4:10 calls to mind Tacitus's report that the Parthian King Tiridates placed his diadem before the image of Nero to give homage to the Roman emperor (p. 103)."
The most dramatic example of effective intercessory prayer offered by deceased saints is reported in 2 Maccabees 12:38-46. Right before the decisive battle against the Syrian Greeks, Judas Maccabaeus, the Jewish military leader, shares his vision of the late high priest Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah praying for their victory:
"Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it, he addressed him thus: "Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries (12:15-16)."
Jeremiah's role in the improbable Maccabean victory prompts some of Jesus' followers believe that He ministers as Jeremiah raised from the dead (Matthe
- Evangelicals have no adequate response to the biblical basis for the Catholic doctrine of Communion of the Saints as spelled out in this thread. Ironically, Evangelicals have no biblical basis for their common practice of praying directly to Jesus in direct defiance of His expressed wishes.
Jesus confesses: "My Father is greater than I (John 14:28)," and so, Jesus' model prayer teaches us to pray to "Our Father," not to Jesus! Jesus teaches us to pray to the Father in Jesus's name: "On that day you will ask nothing of Me. Very truly I tell you, if you ask anything of the Father in my name, He will give it to you (John 16:23)." Or perhaps Evangelicals might appeal to inspired Catholic traditiand use that as a basis for directing prayers to Jesus. As a Pentecostal United Methodist, I have never prayed to the saints myself. Catholics testify to many spectacular miracles achieved by doing so and I find their biblical case for the practice intriguing. We rightly ask other believers to pray for us. Why shouldn't we ask deceased saints to do the same?
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Praying to the Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective
- Thread starter Deadworm
- Start date
JoeT
Member
Communion with the Saints is part of the Catholic Sacred Tradition handed down from the Apostles in the Apostles Creed. There is one Church, one Kingdom, consisting of the Church militant (those of the Kingdom on earth), the Church suffering (those in purgatory), and the Church Triumphant (those in heaven). We commune with them in each Mass every day, in each community, in each nation - except maybe China. The only witnesses we have to 'the good news' are the Apostles. If you leave out, "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen," then you don't believe the Apostles. As such, how do you believe the Bible, Alone or otherwise; they wrote the Sacred Scriptures?
Do you often pick an chose what is taught by the Apostles in the Scripture? Assuming an even distribution of the saved, wouldn't you want a full 1/3rd of your congregation praying for you? I do, I also ask for their prayers of guidance and strength of virtue. I also pray for those in purgatory, for an end of their suffering, I would hope others would do the same for me. What do you pray for, yourself?
JoeT
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God expressly forbis any and all attempts to speak to those who have died, and that ONLY we are to pray to The truine God Himself, period!
3rdAngel
Member
Your promoting a pagan practice within the Chuch that has no basis in the scriptures and trying to use sources outside of the bible to justify this abomination. You have not provided a single scripture in your OP that supports praying to the dead but tried to read into the scriptures that which is not there. The true Apostles creed is the bible. Not the source you have provided that is not from the bible.
PRAYING TO THE DEAD (MARY AND THE SAINTS) - A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE
DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 says that we are not to try to communicate to the dead. The Hebrew words הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim with דּרשׁ; dârash that make up necromancy mean to inquire or ask something of the dead. The Hebrew word דּרשׁ; dârash emphesizing the inquiring or asking part of the scripture in application to prayers (asking and inquiring) to the dead in application here to your OP would be in reference to your practice of praying to Mary and the saints.
I believe that in DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 the Hebrew words for necromancer have application to prayers to the dead which can includes Mary and the saints because praying to the dead is seeking to have contact with the dead because it is the dead you are praying to and asking or inquiring which is the meaning of the Hebrew words.
Another words trying to contact the dead through prayer could be viewed as performing the duty of a necromancer because by praying to the dead your trying to communicate to the dead.
Looking at the Hebrew word meanings what is the difference between someone praying and trying to communicate to the dead and a necromancer when that is the role of a necromancer?
The true apostles creed (the scriptures) teach that if someone is dead then we are not to try and communicate to them.
Praying to the dead goes against the scriptures in God's WORD. As shown above it is an abomination to God and also goes against these scriptures below from the NEW Testament...
JOHN 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
1 TIMOTHY 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
1 TIMOTHY 2:5-6
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
MATTHEW 6:9-13 Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
ACTS 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
ECCLESIASTIES 9:5-6 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
On top of these scriptures brother did you know that praying to the dead has its origin from the pagan cultures of the world? So in summary praying to the dead has its origin in the practice of Necramancy which is an abomination forbidden by God.
Finally where in God's WORD are we told to pray to the dead (Mary and the saints)?
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No, Jesus' disciples spoke to the dead and now alive Jesus and Moses and Elijah conversed with Jesus about his mission on the mountain. The Bible only condemns necromancy, a form of mediumship. Remember, what Catholics are praying for is this: that Mary and the saints join in their intercessory prayer for human need in keeping with the intercessory prayers of saints recorded in Revelation and 2 Maccabees.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Was Lazarus dead when our Blessed Lord spoke to him? ---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...44&version=KJV
Was Tabitha dead when St. Peter spoke to her? ---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...40&version=KJV
3rdAngel
Member
Rubbish! Your continued quoting of sources outside of God's WORD and reading things into the scriptures that are not there in contradiction to other scriptures is disturbing. JESUS disciples did not pray to the dead and you have no scripture that says so. According to God's WORD praying to the dead is an abomination DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12. According to the scriptures Elijah NEVER died. The story recorded in 2 Kings 2 tells us unmistakably that Elijah was taken to heaven without dying. Verse 11. Moses was resurrected from the dead according to the scripture posted in Jude.
None of the disciples of JESUS prayed to MOSES or ELIJAH or even spoke to them.
MATTHEW 17:1-7 [11]And after six days Jesus takes Peter, James, and John his brother, and brings them up into an high mountain apart, [2], And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. [3], And, behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. [4], Then answered Peter, and said to Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if you will, let us make here three tabernacles; one for you, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. [5], While he yet spoke, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear you him. [6], And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. [7], And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
As shown through the scriptures above in the previous post the scripture give a different definition to "NECROMANCY" than you do or does society. DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 says that we are not to try to communicate to the dead. The Hebrew words הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim with דּרשׁ; dârash that make up necromancy mean to inquire or ask something of the dead.
Your asking people to enquire or ask something of the dead which is forbidden in God's Word and is unbiblical.
3rdAngel
Member
You are confused and do not know the scriptures and are twisting them to your own destruction instead of hearing God's Word and believing it.
JoeT
Member
We know where the confusion lies, we know who is the cause of the confusion, and we know it doesn't include our friend Jesus Christ.
JoeT
3rdAngel
Member
Indeed, than believe God's Word and be blessed.
We don't believe in your doctrine of Soul Sleep. Made-up doctrine of your false prophetess, Grounded in no warrant of scripture but rather repugnant to the word of God.
3rdAngel
Member
The origin of death as a sleep is only found in God's WORD which you deny in order to follow man-made teachings and traditions that are not biblical. I am sorry, I cannot help you as you have no interest in discussing scripture or do you seek to know the truth of God's Word.
God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him.
Did they return back to life, so they were not staying dead in the physical sense?
The dead in Christ are not to be prayed to, for we have but one Mediator between God and Man, and Mary/ and the Apostles can do NOTHING that He cannot do for us! To speak to anyone but God in prayer is both blasphemy and idolatry!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Yes, they were most certainly physically dead. Regarding Lazarus, St. John provides an awful lot of detail to make it explicit that at Jesus's words, the dead Lazarus arose. He is clear that Lazarus was physically dead before the words our Blessed Lord spoke to him...
Jesus explicitly tells the disciples Lazarus is most assuredly dead. ---> John 11:14
When Jesus arrives in Bethany, Lazarus had been dead and in the grave for four days. ---> John 11:17
Martha warns Jesus that because he had been dead for four days, if He opens the grave, he will stinketh. ---> John 11:39
Jesus commands the dead Lazarus to come forth. ---> John 11:43
The dead Lazarus comes forth AFTER our Lord's command. ---> John 11:44
The risen Lazarus is still covered in his burial clothes, which Jesus then orders to have removed. ---> John 11:44
Regarding Tabitha at Joppa, St. Luke too provides details to make it explicit that at St. Peter's words, the dead Tabitha arose. He is clear that Tabitha was physically dead before the words St. Peter spoke to her...
Tabitha was sick and died ---> Acts 9:37
When St. Peter arrives, he is brought to the grieving family of Tabitha ---> Acts 9:39
St. Peter commands the dead Tabitha to arise ---> Acts 9:40
The dead Tabitha arrises and is presented to her family ---> Acts 9:41
Now, were Jesus and St. Peter wrong to speak to the dead?
They were still there in the body, came back to physical life, they did not speaks to Ghosts!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Their bodies were still there, but they were DEAD...
John 11:14 --> "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, 'Lazarus is dead.'"
Acts 9:36-37 ---> "Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and alms deeds which she did. And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber."
***** Question you have not answered ****** ---> Were Jesus and St. Peter wrong to speak to the dead?
YOU just prayed to Walpole (in RED).
"Pray" dimply means to ASK.
Definition of the word “PRAY”:
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
To worship or adore is a SECONDARY definition of the word "Pray".
The PRIMARY definition is to ASK. We ASK the saints in Heaven to pray FOR us because they are members of the Body of Christ just like those on earth are. James said the prayers of a righteous person are powerful (James 5:16) and ONLY those in Heaven are truly righteous.
The Mosaic prohibitions on contacting the dead were against seeking oracles (gleaning information) from the dead. If talking to the dead was sinful - then Christ sinned for talking to Moses during the Transfiguration.
Get over it already . . .
God is against speaking to dead people period, as ONLY God Himself to be address ed and prayed to by us, anyone else is idolatry!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
So were Jesus and St. Peter wrong to speak to the dead????