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Praying to the Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective
- Thread starter Deadworm
- Start date
WRONG.
The Mosaic prohibitions on contacting the dead were against seeking oracles (gleaning information) from the dead. If talking to the dead was sinful - then Christ sinned for talking to Moses during the Transfiguration.
Moses was still alive at that time!
Uhhhhh, no.
Moses was dead and buried centuries before the Transfiguration in Moab (Deut. 34:5),
God is the god of the living, not of the dead, but thatwas God Himself allowing them to see Moses, not the norm, God exemption!
Uh huh, because he is very much ALIVE in the presence of God - just like the saints in Heaven . . .
Moses' EARTHLY BODY is dead, not his SOUL. And God sent his soul back to earth to speak with Jesus at the "Transfiguration".
Right now, Moses does not see nor hear what's going on here. And neither does Mary nor any other saint of the past.
The RCC is faith PLUS the traditions of men, in direct violation of Jesus' admonition against mixing mens' traditions with the commands & precepts of GOD.
Right now, Moses does not see nor hear what's going on here. And neither does Mary nor any other saint of the past.
The RCC is faith PLUS the traditions of men, in direct violation of Jesus' admonition against mixing mens' traditions with the commands & precepts of GOD.
Hollow Man
Active Member
Deadworm said:
"Literally?" Really?
Nothing in scripture indicates that our loved ones in Heaven "monitor" us.
And if my loved ones are in Heaven, why would I want to distract them from the bliss of Heaven with the sinfulness of Earth?
Except that the point isn't whether or not they pray for us, but whether or not it's permissible for us to violate the Bible's prohibition and condemnation of praying to the dead. Thanks for being honest enough to admit that your cult does pray to the dead. You'd be amazed how many of your fellow cultmembers try to weasel out of this.
Not Catholic. Don't care. As Christians, we get our doctrines and understandig of God and the things of God from the Bible, not from extra-canonical Catholic sources.
You still haven't demonstrated that your necromancy is supported by scripture.
Hollow Man
Active Member
Peter didn't speak to the dead. He only spoke to Jesus to tell Him he was going to make three tents. Jesus is God. He can speak to anyone He wants.
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Hollow Man
Active Member
And I guess a very dead Jesus was wrong to speak to His disciples after His resurrection!
Perhaps you missed the point of the resurrection. Jesus wasn't "very dead" after His resurrection. He was very alive. That's the whole point of the resurrection.
This is absolutely false and shows an ignorance of Scripture.
Heb. 12:1 explicitly states:
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of WITNESSES, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us.
A witness is somebody who sees and hears - otherwise they are NOT a witness.
As to your use of "RCC" - that also is also coming from a point of ignorance - so allow me to educate you . . .
"Roman" or "Latin" refers to the Liturgical Rite - of which there are TWENTY that comprise the Catholic Church. Some others include the Melkite Rite, the Maronite, The Byzantine, the Coptic, the Ruthenian, etc. They are ALL in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, the Pope. The differences are largely ethnic in nature, not doctrinal.
The official name of the Catholic Church is - "The Catholic Church."
It is not the "Roman" Catholic Church. That is an ignorant fallacy.
Do you even know what "necromancy" is??
Apparently NOT - so let me educate you . . .
Necromancy is seeking oracles from the dead - trying to glean information from them.
That is what "necromancy" is.
Asking a deceased brother or sister in Christ who is very much ALIVE in the eternal presence of God to pray for you is the same as asking a brother or sister in Christ here on earth to pray for you. They are STILL part of the Body of Christ - whether YOU like it or not . . .
Do you even know WHY you reject the 7 Deuterocanonical Books of Scripture??
Apparently NOT - so let me educate you . . .
About 40 years after Jesus died and rose from the dead, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. The Temple was desecrated and completely destroyed. Jesus foretold that this was going to happen in Mark 13: 1‐4.
Not long after this, a group of Rabbis asked permission from the Roman authorities to hold a Rabbinical school at Jabneh (or Jamnia).
One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians. The name, "Septuagint", comes from the number of scholars (70) who translated the Hebrew texts into Greek.
At this gathering, they decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel) that they felt were uninspired. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ.
According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an "official" council with binding authority to make such a decision.
It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see over 200 references to them.
The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiva, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kohkba was the real Messiah during the 2nd Jewish revolt (circa 132 AD).
So – YOU adhere to a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon that was declared by a FALSE prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE Christ (Simon Bar Kohkba).
Good job . . .
Wanna BET??
As I already educated you - Heb. 12:1 explicitly states:
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of WITNESSES, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us.
A witness is somebody who sees and hears - otherwise they are NOT a witness.
Furthermore - Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in Heaven TAKING OUR PRAYERS to God - and Rev. 8:4-5 shows the Angels in Heaven doing the SAME thing.
STUDY your Bible , , ,
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Not according to Jesus...
---> "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." (St. Luke 15:7)
---> "So it is, I tell you, with the angels of God; there is joy among them over one sinner that repents." (St. Luke 15:10)
Walpole
Well-Known Member
According to St. Luke, he spoke to the dead Tabitha...
Acts 9:36-43 ---> "Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and alms deeds which she did. And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in a"Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and alms deeds which she did. And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber. And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them. Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them. But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, 'Tabitha, arise.' And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up. And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord. And it came to pass, that he tarried many days in Joppa with one Simon a tanner."
Hollow Man
Active Member
Neither of those verses mention Moses or any person in Heaven observing the living on Earth.
Hollow Man
Active Member
One would have to have reached an AOC level of stupidity to not understand the difference between communicating with the dead for the purposes of supplication or intervention and performing a miracle by speaking life into a person who had died.
Peter was not praying to her. He was raising her from the dead.
And one would have to reach an Adam Schiff level of dishonesty to say that asking as fellow member of the Body of Christ to pray for you is "necromancy" . . .