Praying to the Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Walpole]

Neither of those verses mention Moses or any person in Heaven observing the living on Earth.

---> "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." (St. Luke 15:7)

---> "So it is, I tell you, with the angels of God; there is joy among them over one sinner that repents." (St. Luke 15:10)

One cannot rejoice over the repentance of those on Earth unless one was made aware. Ergo, they “observe” that which happens here.

Are you now arguing Moses is not in heaven?

 

[robycop3]

This is absolutely false and shows an ignorance of Scripture.
Heb. 12:1 explicitly states:
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of WITNESSES, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us.9/color]

The ignorance of Scripture is YOURS.

The witnesses of Heb. 12 are the other live Christians, as seen from Heb.11, which speax of the line of faithful Israelis from Moses til then. Neither Moses nor any other saint of the past sees (nor cares about) anything occurring on earth, til Jesus returns, an event He said will be seen by ALL, even those who pierced Him.

God made exception & sent the soul of Samuel to communicate to Saul at Endor. Sammy's appearance even startled the necromancer who'd "summoned" him, as she knew her other summonings were phony.

A witness is somebody who sees and hears - otherwise they are NOT a witness.

The other Christians then alive on earth were those witnesses.

As to your use of "RCC" - that also is also coming from a point of ignorance - so allow me to educate you . . .
"Roman" or "Latin" refers to the Liturgical Rite - of which there are TWENTY that comprise the Catholic Church. Some others include the Melkite Rite, the Maronite, The Byzantine, the Coptic, the Ruthenian, etc. They are ALL in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, the Pope. The differences are largely ethnic in nature, not doctrinal.

The official name of the Catholic Church is - "The Catholic Church."
It is not the "Roman" Catholic Church. That is an ignorant fallacy.

Say whatcha want. However, many RC officials call their church "Roman Catholic" or "Holy Roman Catholic Church". No getting away from that. It's on PUBLIC RECORD many times !

And again, the RCC is a mixture of faith with the traditions of men, in direct violation of Jesus' words against such a mixture !

 

[robycop3]

Not according to Jesus...

---> "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." (St. Luke 15:7)

---> "So it is, I tell you, with the angels of God; there is joy among them over one sinner that repents." (St. Luke 15:10)

Angels can see things on earth; dead humans' souls cannot.

 

[Deadworm]

Hollow man: "Nothing in scripture indicates that our loved ones in Heaven "monitor" us."
I refuted your claim with several texts, and you have no answer except mindless pontifications.

HolloAnd if my loved ones are in Heaven, why would I want to distract them from the bliss of Heaven with the sinfulness of Earth?



Except that the point isn't whether or not they pray for us, but whether or not it's permissible for us to violate the Bible's prohibition and condemnation of praying to the dead. Thanks for being honest enough to admit that your cult does pray to the dead. You'd be amazed how many of your fellow cultmembers try to weasel out of this.



Not Catholic. Don't care. As Christians, we get our doctrines and understandig of God and the things of God from the Bible, not from extra-canonical Catholic sources.



You still haven't demonstrated that your necromancy is supported by scripture.[/QUOTE]

 

[Hollow Man]

Are you now arguing Moses is not in heaven?

One would have to be pretty stupid to read my post and think I'm arguing Moses isn't in Heaven.

Clearly. I'm pointing out that the verse doesn't say anything about Moses, which anyone who can read can see.

 

[Hollow Man]

I refuted your claim with several texts, and you have no answer except mindless pontifications.

Not one of the verses you quoted show what you claim.

 

[Deadworm]

Hollow Man: "Literally?" Really?"
To deny that Hebrews 12:22 is literal is to deny that it is true; and its truth is one of many reasons that decisively refutes you.


Hollow Man: "Nothing in scripture indicates that our loved ones in Heaven "monitor" us."
I just refuted your claim with several texts. Your mindless pontifications don't exempt you from the need for the hard work of critical engagement with the relevant texts.

Hollow Man: "And if my loved ones are in Heaven, why would I want to distract them from the bliss of Heaven with the sinfulness of Earth?"
Heaven is not an insipid glorified Disney World in which believers no longer care about suffering humanity below.


Hollow Man: ""Except that the point isn't whether or not they pray for us, but whether or not it's permissible for us to violate the Bible's prohibition and condemnation of praying to the dead. Thanks for being honest enough to admit that your cult does pray to the dead. You'd be amazed how many of your fellow cultmembers try to weasel out of this."
You have no clue as to what bibliomancy is; it is a form of channeling.



Hollow Man: "Not Catholic. Don't care. As Christians, we get our doctrines and understandig of God and the things of God from the Bible, not from extra-canonical Catholic sources."
Duh, the Maccabee brothers were Jewish freedom fighters, not Catholics! And 1-2 Maccabees are pre-Catholic Jewish books on the Maccabean revolt against the Syrian Greeks in 175-163 BC.

 

[Hollow Man]

Hollow Man: "Literally?" Really?"
To deny that Hebrews 12:22 is literal is to deny that it is true; and its truth is one of many reasons that decisively refutes you.

First of all, in typical Catholic fashion, you're dishonestly citing this verse out of context.

Just a little tip for you that those of us who can read are already aware of, any time a verse begins with a conjunctive phrase, that tells you that is not the beginning of the verse.

Second, you are not the Hebrews refered to in Hebrews 12:22.

I just refuted your claim with several texts.

No, you cited several verses that say nothing about our loved ones and then declared that they say our loved ones "monitor us".

Your mindless pontifications don't exempt you from the need for the hard work of critical engagement with the relevant texts.

Sadly, your lying is typical of Catholicism. You and your cult are truly children of your father, the Devil.

Heaven is not an insipid glorified Disney World in which believers no longer care about suffering humanity below.

In other words, you can't answer the question.

Duh, the Maccabee brothers were Jewish freedom fighters, not Catholics!

And 1-2 Maccabees are pre-Catholic Jewish books on the Maccabean revolt against the Syrian Greeks in 175-163 BC.

And yet, every Catholic Bible contains Maccabees, just as I said.

 

[Walpole]

Angels can see things on earth; dead humans' souls cannot.

We are told there is joy in heaven by those "with the angels." (v. 7, 10)

Logic 101: Who is in heaven with God in the presence of the angels?

 

[Walpole]

One would have to be pretty stupid to read my post and think I'm arguing Moses isn't in Heaven.

Clearly. I'm pointing out that the verse doesn't say anything about Moses, which anyone who can read can see.

Please pardon my stupidity, but you did say, “Neither of those verses mention Moses or any person in Heaven observing the living on Earth.”

Is Moses in heaven with God and “with the angels” or not?

 

[Hollow Man]

Please pardon my stupidity

That's getting to be a full time job.

Is Moses in heaven with God and “with the angels” or not?

What does that have to do with you lying about those verses mentioning Moses?

According to your cult, to say Moses is in Heaven would be the "sin of presumption".

I believe he is, but you can't say he is without going against your cult's teachings.

 

[Walpole]

That's getting to be a full time job.

I am grateful for your patience with my stupidity.

What does that have to do with you lying about those verses mentioning Moses?

According to your cult, to say Moses is in Heaven would be the "sin of presumption".

I believe he is, but you can't say he is without going against your cult's teachings.

Thank you for your concession and torpedoing your entire argument.

If Moses is in heaven, he would thus know what is happening to the faithful on Earth, per the words of Jesus.

Checkmate.

 

[MarysSon]

The ignorance of Scripture is YOURS.

The witnesses of Heb. 12 are the other live Christians, as seen from Heb.11, which speax of the line of faithful Israelis from Moses til then. Neither Moses nor any other saint of the past sees (nor cares about) anything occurring on earth, til Jesus returns, an event He said will be seen by ALL, even those who pierced Him.

God made exception & sent the soul of Samuel to communicate to Saul at Endor. Sammy's appearance even startled the necromancer who'd "summoned" him, as she knew her other summonings were phony.

The other Christians then alive on earth were those witnesses.

Say whatcha want. However, many RC officials call their church "Roman Catholic" or "Holy Roman Catholic Church". No getting away from that. It's on PUBLIC RECORD many times !

And again, the RCC is a mixture of faith with the traditions of men, in direct violation of Jesus' words against such a mixture !

Perhaps then, YOU can show me some official documents that pertain to the Holy "Roman" Catholic Church?? This should be easy for you . . .

As to Heb. 12:1 - it IS talking about those who died in faith - and the fact they are are now "so great a cloud of witnesses". It goes on to say that we should therefore behave accordingly since they ARE witnesses.

A "witness" sees and hears - otherwise they are NOT witnesses . . .

 

[MarysSon]

Angels can see things on earth; dead humans' souls cannot.

Can you show me where the Bible differentiates??
Chapter and Verse, please . . .

 

[MarysSon]

According to your cult, to say Moses is in Heaven would be the "sin of presumption".
I believe he is, but you can't say he is without going against your cult's teachings.

Another exercise in complete ignorance.

The Church proclaims Moses to be in Heaven.
WHY would you claim that is would be "sinfully presumptuous" for a Catholic to agree with the Church??

 

[MarysSon]

And yet, every Catholic Bible contains Maccabees, just as I said.

And, as I educated you back in post #33 - the Bible that Jesus and the NT writers studied from ALSO had the Maccabean Books - and the other 5 Deuterocanonical Books you reject,

YOU hold to a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon that was declared by a FALSE Prophet who also declared a FALSE Christ.

Good job . . .

 

[Hollow Man]

If Moses is in heaven, he would thus know what is happening to the faithful on Earth, per the words of Jesus.

Except that Jesus didn't say that. But I guess when your cult has such contempt for God's Word, it's only natural you would have no trouble lying about it.

Not one verse you cited even mentions Moses, much less says those in Heaven are aware of what goes on on Earth.

 

[Walpole]

Except that Jesus didn't say that. But I guess when your cult has such contempt for God's Word, it's only natural you would have no trouble lying about it.

Not one verse you cited even mentions Moses, much less says those in Heaven are aware of what goes on on Earth.

Jesus says exactly this...

--> "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." (St. Luke 15:7)

---> "So it is, I tell you, with the angels of God; there is joy among them over one sinner that repents." (St. Luke 15:10)


One cannot rejoice and have joy over the repentance of those on Earth unless one was made aware of what goes on on Earth.

Checkmate.

 

[Hollow Man]

Jesus says exactly this...

--> "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." (St. Luke 15:7)

---> "So it is, I tell you, with the angels of God; there is joy among them over one sinner that repents." (St. Luke 15:10)


One cannot rejoice and have joy over the repentance of those on Earth unless one was made aware of what goes on on Earth.

Checkmate.

Once again, nothing about Moses and nothing about our loved ones in Heaven "monitoring" us.

 

[Walpole]

Once again, nothing about Moses and nothing about our loved ones in Heaven "monitoring" us.

You already sunk your own boat by conceding Moses is in heaven.

One cannot rejoice over the repentance of those on Earth unless one was made aware. Ergo, they “monitor” that which happens here.

It’s checkmate for you.