Actually, Moses is in PARADISE. No human is yet in heaven.
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Praying to the Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective
- Thread starter Deadworm
- Start date
Actually, Moses is in PARADISE. No human is yet in heaven.
Luke 16:
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
While the rich man was aware of his past, he couldn't see what his brothers were up to on earth, nor influence them in any way. While this story is a parable, it's an accurate description of a few things in hades, the temporary abode of all the souls of the dead.
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .
AFTER the Resurrection of Christ - there are souls in Heaven. they are NOT in Hades.
This parable does NOT address what is taught in Hebrews 12:1, wherein, there is "so great a cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles."
This verse tells us we are being watched by those who have gone to Heaven before us - so we should behave accordingly.
Wrong.
We read about them in Rev. 5:8 - and they are interceding for us.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Experience has led me to conclude the stereotype that most Protestants know the Scriptures is a false one.
It is demonstrated in real-time here on these threads.
Hollow Man
Active Member
We can quibble about that later, but even Walpole, who has admitted twice that he is stupid, understands what I mean.
Luke 2
13And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
14“Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”
The Angels multitude of those in heaven, praising God. God is pleased with men.
Here is direct prayer Requesting angels to Bless the Lord, For the host of those who serve him doing his will, For ANYONE created in all places, all dominions.
Pslams 103
20Bless the LORD, you His angels,
Mighty in strength, who perform His word,
Obeying the voice of His word!
21Bless the LORD, all you His hosts,
You who serve Him, doing His will.
22Bless the LORD, all you works of His,
In all places of His dominion;
Bless the LORD, O my soul!
Here is a direct prayer to angels, men, sun, moon, stars, sky, waters, space, sea monsters, fruits, trees, vegatables cats and dog requesting they praise God.
Psalm 148
1Praise the LORD!
Praise the LORD from the heavens;
Praise Him in the heights!
2Praise Him, all His angels;
Praise Him, all His hosts!
3Praise Him, sun and moon;
Praise Him, all stars of light!
4Praise Him, highest heavens,
And the waters that are above the heavens!
5Let them praise the name of the LORD,
For He commanded and they were created.
6He has also established them forever and ever;
He has made a decree which will not pass away.
We even pray to everyone, to hear the gospel.
Mark 16
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
7Praise the LORD from the earth,
Sea monsters and all deeps;
8Fire and hail, snow and clouds;
Stormy wind, fulfilling His word;
9Mountains and all hills;
Fruit trees and all cedars;
10Beasts and all cattle;
Creeping things and winged fowl;
11Kings of the earth and all peoples;
Princes and all judges of the earth;
12Both young men and virgins;
Old men and children.
13Let them praise the name of the LORD,
For His name alone is exalted;
His glory is above earth and heaven.
14And He has lifted up a horn for His people,
Praise for all His godly ones;
Even for the sons of Israel, a people near to Him.
Praise the LORD!
13And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
14“Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”
The Angels multitude of those in heaven, praising God. God is pleased with men.
Here is direct prayer Requesting angels to Bless the Lord, For the host of those who serve him doing his will, For ANYONE created in all places, all dominions.
Pslams 103
20Bless the LORD, you His angels,
Mighty in strength, who perform His word,
Obeying the voice of His word!
21Bless the LORD, all you His hosts,
You who serve Him, doing His will.
22Bless the LORD, all you works of His,
In all places of His dominion;
Bless the LORD, O my soul!
Here is a direct prayer to angels, men, sun, moon, stars, sky, waters, space, sea monsters, fruits, trees, vegatables cats and dog requesting they praise God.
Psalm 148
1Praise the LORD!
Praise the LORD from the heavens;
Praise Him in the heights!
2Praise Him, all His angels;
Praise Him, all His hosts!
3Praise Him, sun and moon;
Praise Him, all stars of light!
4Praise Him, highest heavens,
And the waters that are above the heavens!
5Let them praise the name of the LORD,
For He commanded and they were created.
6He has also established them forever and ever;
He has made a decree which will not pass away.
We even pray to everyone, to hear the gospel.
Mark 16
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
7Praise the LORD from the earth,
Sea monsters and all deeps;
8Fire and hail, snow and clouds;
Stormy wind, fulfilling His word;
9Mountains and all hills;
Fruit trees and all cedars;
10Beasts and all cattle;
Creeping things and winged fowl;
11Kings of the earth and all peoples;
Princes and all judges of the earth;
12Both young men and virgins;
Old men and children.
13Let them praise the name of the LORD,
For His name alone is exalted;
His glory is above earth and heaven.
14And He has lifted up a horn for His people,
Praise for all His godly ones;
Even for the sons of Israel, a people near to Him.
Praise the LORD!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Oh no! According to Protestant theology, this prayer of David’s to the saints in heaven is sinful.
Just like some of the other things we do that they castigate us for. They claim we engage in "repetitive" prayer which according to them is forbidden, but if we go to Rev 4:8 it states:
8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,
who was, and is, and is to come.”
Gee, if repetitive prayer is okay in heaven it seems to me it should be likewise okay for us here on earth. Just sayin.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Very true. Plus we have the example of our Blessed Lord Himself...
—> “So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again.” - Mt 26:44
Hollow Man
Active Member
Deadworm said:
Oh, JonC is going to love you.
Providentially, the other night I saw an excellent example of effective prayer to the saints on a Travel Channel documentary. A young man's house was haunted by a huge horned apparition of an entity identifying itself as Belial, a term for Satan. The young man went to his pastor for help and the pastor came to the house, only to be paralyzed with terror when Belial appeared and assaulted him. With great difficulty the young man helped drag the pastor from his home, but was again confronted by Belial. Belial forced him to the ground and began to sap the life force out of him. But in desperation, he recalled and meditated on a saying his deceased Christian grandpa taught him to recall, "No life is more powerful than merciful love." This meditation summon his grandpa's spirit who initially appeared as orbs of light but then appeared in luminous full-bodied form. An overpowered Belial was forced to depart and leave the young man alone.