jonathan.borland
Active Member
So God is still creating, i.e., he didn't stop on the 7th day? And in your view is the human pre-soul fetus no higher than an animal fetus? You said it has "value" but I don't know what you mean.
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Pre Mil, pre-trib (or mid trib) question
- Thread starter webdog
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So God is still creating, i.e., he didn't stop on the 7th day? And in your view is the human pre-soul fetus no higher than an animal fetus? You said it has "value" but I don't know what you mean.
beameup
Member
Souls are being saved on a daily basis "in real time".
"New Creations in Christ" are continually added "in real time".
God exists "outside of time". Christ died for lost souls. - Rom 5:6
But you already knew this, if you are a Christian of any maturity at all.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: - 3 Cor 5:17a
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, - Eph 1:4a
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Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day
there were added unto them about three thousand souls. - Acts 2:41
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jonathan.borland
Active Member
I would not say that God creates a new soul for each person when he/she gets saved, but rather transforms that person's soul and one day will glorify that person entirely, both body and soul. Becoming a "new creation in Christ" is imagery to describe this regeneration. I take it by your response that you think God still creates souls in real time ex nihilo? What about my other question: In your view is the human pre-soul fetus (i.e., before the baby takes its first breath according to your view) no higher than an animal fetus?
beameup
Member
According to scripture, God places "value" on birds (as an example):
Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. - Luke 12:6
Does this mean that we should not eat birds because God places a "value" on them? You have to decide that for yourself.
There is no mention in the scriptures of one-celled zygotes frozen inside a test-tube,
and yet there are many Christians (some on this very forum) who feel that they are human beings.
There are Christian's today that feel that even interruption of the attachment of a fertilized egg
to the wall of the uterus is a Sin against God. Certainly to them this is a very high priority concern.
I am guessing that there are some on this forum who place a high value on trees and would
chain themselves to a tree if they felt the tree was in danger of being cut down.
Perhaps there are those here on this forum that there are members of PETA as well. Recently, PETA
requested that the Killer Whales at SeaWorld be subpoenaed to appear in court to testify that
they were being held as virtual slaves by SeaWorld.
If you feel that God has called you to save endangered and abandoned animals, then by all means
follow what you feel God has called you to do. If you are continually confronted by fetuses and
you feel the call of God to protect them, then by all means follow what you feel is the call of God.
I have personally have enough on my hands, being continually surrounded by lost souls that are going to HELL.
Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. - Luke 12:6
Does this mean that we should not eat birds because God places a "value" on them? You have to decide that for yourself.
There is no mention in the scriptures of one-celled zygotes frozen inside a test-tube,
and yet there are many Christians (some on this very forum) who feel that they are human beings.
There are Christian's today that feel that even interruption of the attachment of a fertilized egg
to the wall of the uterus is a Sin against God. Certainly to them this is a very high priority concern.
I am guessing that there are some on this forum who place a high value on trees and would
chain themselves to a tree if they felt the tree was in danger of being cut down.
Perhaps there are those here on this forum that there are members of PETA as well. Recently, PETA
requested that the Killer Whales at SeaWorld be subpoenaed to appear in court to testify that
they were being held as virtual slaves by SeaWorld.
If you feel that God has called you to save endangered and abandoned animals, then by all means
follow what you feel God has called you to do. If you are continually confronted by fetuses and
you feel the call of God to protect them, then by all means follow what you feel is the call of God.
I have personally have enough on my hands, being continually surrounded by lost souls that are going to HELL.
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Beameup gets his heretical doctrine from a false prophet named Peter Ruckman.
Ruckman holds lunatic beliefs & yet so many still follow him. This is because certain sects of Baptist have been conditioned to follow their self-appointed shepherds without question. It is a cult following that refuses to examine every teaching, every statement by those they follow & praise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xor0GPaFSHI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xH9PBLdjKA&feature=player_embedded#!
Ruckman holds lunatic beliefs & yet so many still follow him. This is because certain sects of Baptist have been conditioned to follow their self-appointed shepherds without question. It is a cult following that refuses to examine every teaching, every statement by those they follow & praise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xor0GPaFSHI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xH9PBLdjKA&feature=player_embedded#!
beameup
Member
It figures that someone who has no solid scripture on the matter would instead resort to slander.
It figures that someone who's theology completely ignores vast portions of Gods Word concerning His promises to his own people, genetic Israel;
and does not even believe in the blessed hope of the rapture of the church,
would, in desperation, retort with accusations and mischaracterizations.
The charge of heresy is used, however, it would be most fitting by looking in your own mirror.
He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool. - Prov. 10:18
It figures that someone who's theology completely ignores vast portions of Gods Word concerning His promises to his own people, genetic Israel;
and does not even believe in the blessed hope of the rapture of the church,
would, in desperation, retort with accusations and mischaracterizations.
The charge of heresy is used, however, it would be most fitting by looking in your own mirror.
He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool. - Prov. 10:18
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Sure there is. Right next to the part about genetically modified Nephilim offspring.
And you think they are human beings, but soulless, correct?
[snip rant]
do people wear a Cross around their necks and not worship Christ?
beameup
Member
No, I'm afraid that Genesis chapter 6 has been completely deleted out of your Bible or when you go there somehow it cannot be seen by your eyes.
Not to worry though, when Enoch and Elijah come back during the Great Tribulation, Enoch will explain all things to you
concerning the world before the Great Flood.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness,
to be reserved unto judgment; and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness,
bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; - 2 Pet 2:4-5
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For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; - 2 Tim 4:3a
beameup
Member
Ah, you assume too much. Careful and attentive reading will solve that problem in most cases.
Here is a "hint" for you: look up the word zygote.
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And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 1 Cor 15:45
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Quit being obtuse and answer the question.
beameup
Member
The question is too vague and imprecise. Are you asking if a zygote is a "human being"? It would depend on your definition of "human being".
Adam was a fully-formed human... and then God gave him a SOUL.
In the post you referenced, I was not referring to myself except in the very last statement:
"I personally have enough on my hands, being continually surrounded by lost souls that are going to HELL."
Perhaps, in the body of the post I was unknowingly making referencing you?
Perhaps you take the "Catholic Position", since there appear to be many
on this forum that in most ways are "essentially Catholic" in their theology? I don't know.
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Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation,
and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man,
he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. - Phil 2:6-8
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If you are going to reference Adam, who of course was a special case in human history, I will reference Jeremiah, whom God knew before he was in the womb and was sanctified before he was born. Pretty hard to sanctify someone without a soul.
Jer. 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb.
Luke 1:14(b)...He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
So, I don't buy your argument that God gives humans a soul at the time of their birth.
Really? You are saying I'm a lost soul because I disagree with you on this issue. :BangHead:
beameup
Member
You assume too much. Do you always make vast conclusions from half-vast information?
Adam is the pattern established in the Word of God.
Of course, God has "foreknowledge" of everyone who will believe in his Son, and most extrapolate this to include all fully-formed human beings.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. - Rom 8:29 (speaking to believers).
So, as I stated, there are many on this very board who believe that a one-celled fertilized egg (zygote) in a test-tube and
frozen with liquid nitrogen is a human being. This is the Catholic Doctrine. I'm assuming that you are ascribing this Catholic Doctrine to yourself?
You might want to do your "homework" a bit better.
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost,
even OUT OF [ek] his mother's womb. - Luke 1:15
In other words, John the Baptist received his SOUL and was filled with the Holy Spirit upon being born.
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Mr. Kettle meet Mr. Pot!
And do you maintain that every person who is born received their soul at the moment of birth?
Extrapolating, do you believe that human clones would be soulless individuals?
If Adam is the pattern, then why aren't we all formed from the dust of the ground as fully formed adults? You are making an assumption that is not supported by the text. The creation of Adam was unique in every way. God never said that He would give every subsequent person a soul in the same manner. If Adam is the pattern for men, then why is Eve not the pattern for women? God did not create my wife from one of my ribs. Is the Spirit only passed on to new believers by the laying on of hands as Paul exampled in Acts 19? How do you pick & choose which one is a pattern & which ones are not when Scripture does not proclaim any of them to be a pattern?
Your position is eisegesis at its worst. Your desperate attempt to defend Ruckman doctrine reveals a lack of spiritual maturity. Proper Biblical discernment does not add to what is actually written within the text to support your false doctrine.
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Not if they took a breath of air apparently! I wonder if he thinks Jesus was soulless until he was born and breathed as well. His whole thing has to do with breath, so if it has a human body and breathes it's a human (soul). That's why abortion is amoral in their view. But hitting a woman and causing her supposed soulless baby to die carried serious consequences in the OT:
Amos 1:13 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of the children of Ammon, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have ripped up the women with child of Gilead, that they might enlarge their border:
beameup
Member
I was able to listen briefly to this Ruckman fellow on the link provided by Johnathan Borland, however, I cannot quite "tune in" to him.
At any rate, it seems that on this one issue that we have come to the same conclusion; beyond that, I don't know of his teaching.
Interesting question, but since we don't have any clones then it is mere "speculation". Creating corrupted human hybrids was the Devil's plan in Genesis 6 to prevent a Savior for "sons of adam". I have no doubt that a similar plan will be hatched by Satan during the Tribulation involving the "mark of the beast". I believe the precondition of Christ's return is that his brethren, the (genetic) Israelite remnant, petition for Him to return - Hosea 5:15.
As far as the other comments from Michael-Acts 17:11, they simply make no sense at all. He is referring to one-celled zygotes and undeveloped fetuses.
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Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared for me: - Heb 10:5
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made to be a quickening spirit. - 1 Cor 15:45
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. - Mt 26:38
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<Sigh>
Yes or No
Do you maintain that every person who is born received their soul at the moment of birth?
Yes or No
Do you maintain that every person who is born received their soul at the moment of birth?
Those whose doctrine is based upon man's words instead of the Word of God can only avoid questions & give excuses for not answering them. Beamup is loyal to & defends Ruckman doctrine. I am loyal to God & defend His word.