Let's first look at number 4 where I can get definite time periods:
Okay, I'll anticipate that you're planning on answering my other questions as well...
revmwc said:
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
which is a 3 1/2 year period.
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
the second 3 1/2 year period in which the woman not the bride of Christ but the Woman which had the man child, normally a reference to Israel as the Nation in Which Christ would come.
These times make 7 years.
Well you begin in Revelation (which has all kinds of problems) and take a specific futurist interpretation of the book. Why not a historicist interpretation? Why not an idealist interpretation? Why not an eclectic view? Why only futurist?
Now you mention the first and second period of trial. Are the two period conjoined? Are they unique? Are they separated?
Also, this is an important question, do you take all the uses of numbers in Revelation to be exact or "literal" uses?
Notice how the first (according to you) set is 3.5 years (its actually 3.45 years) and the second 3.5 years are separated by significant space in terms of the account of Revelation. Why is that?
revmwc said:
Of course the Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Yeah, that's interesting in Daniel. I've always asked (and never gotten a good answer) why is it that the 69 weeks in Daniel are "literal" but the 70th week isn't?
revmwc said:
70 weeks are determined, from history of this we know that these weeks involved 7 year periods for whn Jesus came and was cut off there had passed 483 years of time and messiah was cut off. The balance of the 70 weeks was not fulfilled by Christ nor has yet happened. The abomination which will stand in the temple has yet to happen. So this is a 7 year period that must be fulfilled. We are told in Revelation that Christ will reign for 1000 years at His return and the 7 years of this end will not see the abomination standing in the temple as Christ said so when does it happen? Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
But the math doesn't work out then does it? If you begin from Christ's crucifixion and count backwards (which is an error laden methodology) you end up with a problematic dating. If you use traditional rabbinic dating you fall short of Jesus' era.
revmwc said:
Here is the midst of the 70th week of Daniel 42 months or 3 1/2 years. The 1st of the week seen in
The 1 st 42 month of the 84 or 7 years is seen here.
revmwc said:
Where is the church, Reveleation 3:10 gives the ANSWER:
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
The church is promised to be kept from the time of trouble or affliction or Tribualtion.
Hour (gr Hora) of temptation Periasmos
Hora
a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
the daytime (bounded by the rising and setting of the sun), a day
a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, (the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun)
any definite time, point of time, moment
Peirasmos an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:
the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy
an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
an internal temptation to sin 1b
of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness
temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men
rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves
Please don't just cut and paste from Strongs. Besides, are you saying
for an hour the trial will commence? and only last for that period?
This is the hard part about eschatological interpretation: you have to, at some point, use figurative language to describe what you might consider a literal event.
revmwc said:
Notice Christ says it is a time coming which will try them that swell upon the earth and yet the church will be kept from it. Those who keep the word of His patience, those who trust Chirst. Throughout Revelation and with Daniel and Christ telling the church that they will be kept from the time of adverstiy affliction or trouble. The middle verses of Revelation give us the time period for this and we see that the Nation Israel not the Church is under attacke in this period.
Revelation 4:1 coupled with 1 Thessalonians 4 shows the church being snatched out, 1 Corithians 3 shows the believers receiving rewards at the judgement seat of Christ not at the Great White throne in which the unbelievers face at the end of the Tribulation and we see a church in Heaven while the time of affliction lasting 7 years is occuring on the earth.
Pretty clear their is a tribulation period coming and it will last 7 years.
You haven't made your case.
How do you handle the constant use of the term, we translate "tribulation/trial/persecution", without affixing any temporal delimitation? How do you handle that there is never a direct link between these two 3.45 years and the point that the faithful are present within them? How do you work through the trouble that there is often a point (particularly in the Olivet Discourse) that believers are going to be part of this period?
Remove your points from Revelation (which I take, mostly, as a historical account of past events, though chapters 19-22 are futuristic) and you have no real accounting for a seven year period. Even in Revelation you don't get seven years, but 6.9 years. Trails, or tribulations (as it often occurs in plural form), are to be expected by the believer but it is not an eschatological sign or moment. It is an ongoing trial whereby we find out faithfulness proven.
The trouble with using Revelation is that it is a ranging book that uses highly Jewish symbolism to speak about events so curious that they are hard to imagine as real.
So let's talk about the rest of my points.
