Pre-trib, pre-what?

[gekko]

hello everybody.

has anybody heard of the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the church?

i certainly have. i havn't read too much into it. but i agree with it so far. i think it saying that the church will be "raptured" just before the seven vials are played out. there's some other things in there too. i don't know a whole lot about it.

what are your thought?

 

[Tim]

I believe there will be one judgement day in which both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected, as Jesus indicated:
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[JackRUS]

Gekko.
I have been studying this position for some time now since a deacon at my old church taught this view a number of years back. But I must say that I am in disagreement with this view.

A fellow named Robert Van Kampen started this view, and his main disciple Marvin Rosenthal works with him at Sign Ministries and has books of his own on the subject.

Van Kampen believes that most of the things that happen in the Tribulation are Satan's wrath, and that God's wrath only starts at the Bowl judgements. He believes that the last trumpet blast starts the Bowl judgements, and therefore God's wrath at the first woe. His time-line has the Rapture occuring somewhere in the middle of the second 3 1/2 year period also known as the Great Tribulation.

But if you look at Scripture the first 2 woes are during the first half of the Tribulation. Between the 2nd and 3rd woes in chapter 11 we have the Jews still worshiping in the Temple. And as anyone knows the Anti-Christ causes the Temple worship to cease at the mid-point of the Tribulation. So that alone puts his timeline for the Rapture off by a few years.

There are many other holes in his escatology that are two numerous to mention in this post. My recomendation is to stay away from his works. I also am in a way pre-wrath rapture. But I believe that God's wrath starts at the first trumpet blast. Not the seventh.

 

[just-want-peace]

Just suppose that God responds to each according to his belief!?!?

IE, the pretribbers are correct for themselves, the prewrathers are correct for themselves, the posttribbers are correct for themselves, and last but not least those who think it's ( the rapture) all allegory are kept here till the final boom!

Should that be the case, I'll be smiling down on y'all who missed the boat. If I'm wrong, I'll be miserable just like all the rest of you!

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by just-want-peace:
Just suppose that God responds to each according to his belief!?!?

IE, the pretribbers are correct for themselves, the prewrathers are correct for themselves, the posttribbers are correct for themselves, and last but not least those who think it's ( the rapture) all allegory are kept here till the final boom!

Should that be the case, I'll be smiling down on y'all who missed the boat. If I'm wrong, I'll be miserable just like all the rest of you!

No, actually you will happy with the rest of us when you are raptured before the Tribulation.

 

[Ed Edwards]

IMHO the first half of Daniel's 70th week
is covered by Revelation 4-13;
the second half by Revelation 15-19.
IMHO the first half of Daniel's 70th week
is Tribulation Lite; the second half
Tribulation HEAVY (AKA: Great Tribulation).

Rev 6:15-17 (Geneva Bible):

And the Kinges of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men,
and the chiefe captaines, and the mighty men,
and euery bondman, and euery free man, hid
themselues in dennes, and among the rockes of the mountaines,
16 And said to the mountaines and rocks, Fal on vs,
and hide vs from the presence of him that sitteth
on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lambe.
17 For the great day of his wrath is come, and who can stand?

Rev 9:6 (Geneva Bible):
Therefore in those dayes shall men seeke death,
and shall not finde it, and shall desire to die,
and death shall flie from them.

The first half, which i've called "tribualation lite" is
a fate worse than death. The first half of the wrath
of man; the second half of the 70th week the wrath of God.

Revelation 14:10 describes the second half, the wrath of God
to come, the Great Tribulation:

Rev 14:10 The same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is powred out without mixture
into the cup of his indignation,
and
hee shall be tormented with fire and brimstone,
in the presence of the holy Angels, and in the presence of the Lambe:

No more baby Jesus, meek and mild. Not only will the followers
of the Beast from the Sea/Satan suffer the Great Tribulation
but also TOAST in HELL. And Jesus will do it to them.

Don't go into the second half of the Tribulation.
Praise God we get to escape the Tribulation 7-year-day
before the Tribulation.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Tim:
I believe there will be one judgement day in which both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected, as Jesus indicated:
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I think you will find that means there is
a JUDGEMENT DAY FOR EVERYONE.
It may not happen all the same
48-hour day.

--------------------------------------------
Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by gekko:
hello everybody.

has anybody heard of the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the church?

i certainly have. i havn't read too much into it. but i agree with it so far. i think it saying that the church will be "raptured" just before the seven vials are played out. there's some other things in there too. i don't know a whole lot about it.

what are your thought?

What is it about the pre-wrath (mid-trib?) position that has convinced you so far?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Tim:
I believe there will be one judgement day in which both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected, as Jesus indicated:
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I agree with you. Christ is returning ONCE and there will be ONE JUDGEMENT. It's amazing the lengths to which some people will go to get around the central fact of the MA 25 and REV 20 descriptions of THE JUDGEMENT, that Christian works count for everything. Notice I said Christian works. By that I mean what we have done in His name after accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

Amen, Brother Ed Edwards -- Preach it!

Strange how the DEAD CERTAINTY of judgement
gets folks confused that there will be
one and only one 'day' in which God can Judge.
God is a judging God and if He wanted to He
can judge each of us on our own seperate day.

The Bible teaching of one judgement day pertains
to the certainty of Judgement

StraightAndNarrow: // It's amazing the lengths to which some people will go to get around the central fact of the MA 25 and REV 20 descriptions of THE JUDGEMENT, that Christian works count for everything.//

Because every person (including the unsaved)
must be judged - how can those unsaved be
judged by thier non-existant Christian works?