Pre-Trib Rapture

[Jeremiah2911]

Yes, you could very well be correct. I simply threw out some issues that have always bothered me and that is what we are looking for is the interretation of the original text and what it means to us today. I did not mean to lay out an absolute conclusion; simply point out some questions I have had trouble answering and yes, that is a very good interpretation which could fit the bill. I did not grow up as a preterest, but in trying to justify the pre-trib rapture, I have found the Bible lacking in clear descriptions in this area. I am not a Biblical 'future-world' expert and simply throwing out some remarks that seem to be taken out of context when Mathew 24 is read in its entirety. It appears there is some discussion relating to the people Jesus is talking to and to the future; but, which is which? That's my only point.

Amen and I have the same issues with clear Biblical direction concerning the "Rapture"--I have a hard time seeing it or "connecting the dots" as one must in order to arrive there.

I had a pastor come in (well, he's not a pastor, but he fills in for some pastors at small churches sometimes; who came into the church building one Sunday talking about a new evil theology called 'preterism' that is destroying many Baptist churches. One church in Colorodo split over this. I would say that if the church split over this issue, the water runs deeper and there are more problems there than just the date of the rapture/tribulation.

You are exactly right--being dogmatic over something that isn't crystal clear to most is, IMO, detrimental and foolish. I always preach that the Bible teaches us to be prepared. [We don't know the day or hour]

But, I often get the same reaction as being called "Mr. Preterest" and I do not do a good job at memorizing dates that I don't often use.

Actually, I had never heard the term "Preterist" before this thread, but it isn't new as I have read others who believed parts of Matt. 24 had occurred in AD70 [Matthew Henry and others], but I don't think I had heard it as eloquently as you put it

Thank you for the response you gave and the manner in which it was given. That's how Christians should debate these issues. Have a good day. :thumbsup:

Amen thank you--we aren't supposed to "bite and devour" one another, although it seems some are intent on trying

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Even those in academic dispensationalism critique the view that distinguishes between the K of God and the K of heaven. The real question is, "What does the word 'kingdom' actually mean?" For me, it primarily means reign or rulership or kingship mostly because that is the primary meaning of the word, not a locale or kingdom (though it can mean that on occasion).

Amen I'm not a Bible scholar but they must have separate meanings [Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven]

 

[Grasshopper]

Amen I'm not a Bible scholar but they must have separate meanings [Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven]

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/kingdom.html

 

[Jeremiah2911]

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/kingdom.html

And here's one for you
http://www.kjvbible.org/thekingdoms.html

--Brother, I understand where you are coming from, but this is an issue a person could argue till he was blue in the face, and I'm not willing to be dogmatic on issues I'm not sure about, but I rather believe they are different, but I could certainly be wrong!

 

[Amy.G]

Like I was saying, no "iron scepter."

Rev 2:27
rabdoV rhabdos hrab'-dos
from the base of 4474; a stick or wand (as a cudgel, a cane or a baton of royalty):--rod, sceptre, staff.

Ps 2:9
jbv shebet shay'-bet
from an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, i.e. (literally) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figuratively) a clan:--X correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe.

 

[Luke2427]

Okay Brothers and Sisters, here goes. Y'all have this all wrong if you think that the Kingdom will be set up here on earth. Here is where Jesus stated that the Kingdom is now.




Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.




When you are saved, God places the Kingdom in you, and is now reigning over you from heaven.


When He comes in the Cloud, He will gather His children from all the earth and take them Home for eternity.


I Thess. 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.






Now, look at this passage in 1 Coronithians 15:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


The new body we get is what I bolded. When we die, our natural body goes in the ground. When Jesus comes to call us out of the ground, when we come out, we will appear as He is.

1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.




1 Cor. 15:51-58
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.





Now, when Jesus comes, this world we live on now, will be burned up, and her works with it.


2 Peter 3:7-18
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.




This world is going "bye bye" when the Lord comes to gather His children. When He calls my name, I will join Him in the Cloud, and He's going to take me Home. And Home sure ain't here.

Copying and pasting a preponderance of verses to prove one's point is about as useless a thing as anyone can do.

When you do this, it is as if you are unaware that the people you are debating are VERY familiar with every one of these passages.

In fact, I venture to say that most of us could quote verbatim most of these verses from memory. Are you under the impression that we did not know these verses were in the BIBLE????

To put a dozen or so verses up that we already know by heart, have already studied thoroughly- is pointless.

Since when did proof texting become a legitimate form of argumentation?

Nothing coud be more useless than posting a bunch of verses and saying basically- "There! You see. I'm right and you're wrong."

The question is not, "Can you provide 50 verses that you feel support your view on the matter." No really thoughtful student of Scripture would be interested in that.

The question is- What is this verse saying and how did you come to understand it to be saying that?

That's all that REALLY matters in a doctrine debate.

ANYBODY can copy and paste a bunch of verses and say- THERE!

 

[webdog]

Let's talk about waste of time...

 

[convicted1]

Copying and pasting a preponderance of verses to prove one's point is about as useless a thing as anyone can do.

And yet you've done the very same thing NUMEROUS times.

When you do this, it is as if you are unaware that the people you are debating are VERY familiar with every one of these passages.

We are quite familiar with the verses YOU post, so what's the difference, Brother Luke?

In fact, I venture to say that most of us could quote verbatim most of these verses from memory. Are you under the impression that we did not know these verses were in the BIBLE????

Nope.....

To put a dozen or so verses up that we already know by heart, have already studied thoroughly- is pointless.

Follow your own advice, then, Brother Luke.

Since when did proof texting become a legitimate form of argumentation?

What I posted wasn't proof texting, it was the Word the way I have been led to believe, through much prayer, meditation, and studying. I'd venture to guess you do the same thing, Brother.

Nothing coud be more useless than posting a bunch of verses and saying basically- "There! You see. I'm right and you're wrong."

Red herring.

The question is not, "Can you provide 50 verses that you feel support your view on the matter." No really thoughtful student of Scripture would be interested in that.

Red herring part two.....boy you caught a bunch on your last fishing trip, Brother Luke.

The question is- What is this verse saying and how did you come to understand it to be saying that?

That's all that REALLY matters in a doctrine debate.

ANYBODY can copy and paste a bunch of verses and say- THERE!

I put in my post what I though the scriptures meant. Whenever someone refutes a post that doesn't have one verse cited, people call them out on it. I used several verses, and still get call out on it.


I guess I need to post what the London Baptist confession, Calvin, Pink, MacArthur, Beza, and Bunyan have to say regarding this. You'll accept what they say!!:thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

I understand there is a lot of debate concerning this [had this discussion with other brothers and sisters more than once]; however, there are many [including myself] who would differ in opinion with you.

If we all agreed on here, then there would be no need of a Baptist debate forum. Debate is good, as long as both side keep it civil. Too many times on here, threads detinate(sp?) because uncivility abounds.

Revelation 21:1-2 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So I think you are half right--this old earth is going to have to be renovated to receive the city built by God [also, whether you consider the New Jerusalem a city as I do, or the Church, it still is to be placed here in the New Earth]

First off, show me where in the bible it states that this earth is going to be renovated. It can't be found, or I believe it can't be found.

Greek word used for "fervent heat": kausoōκαυσόω

Thayer's definition:
1) to burn up, set fire to

2) to suffer with feverish burning, be parched with fever

"elements": stoicheion στοιχεῖον

Thayer's definition:
1) any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal

a) the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds

b) the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe

c) the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside

d) the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline

1) i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry

"melt': lyō λύω

Thayer's definition:
to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together
to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act
to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy
to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy
metaph., to overthrow, to do away with


So as you can see, this earth will be dissolved and will no longer be in existance.

When you say Kingdom, isn't the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven 2 different things?

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. That would be like saying that the Lamb of God, and the Son of God are different, and we know they are the exact same thing.

So when we die, in your opinion, where are we? Lazarus, in Luke 16, seems to be with Abraham--[the rich man, not so much]

The soul, when it leaves the body, if they are saved, goes back to God(Ecc. 12:7). The body is laid in the heart of the earth, and will return to the dust. When Jesus comes in the Cloud, that body that has turned back to dust, will come out with the new Spiritual body, fashioned after the likeness of Jesus' glorious body.

Yes, we shall be changed, but until then, we aren't in a hole in the ground.

The body will return to the dust when it dies, and decomposes over time. It will stay there until Jesus calls it out of that grave, and get the new Spiritual body.

Amen!!

Glad we agreed on *something*!! LOL :laugh:

Again, from my earlier statement, it seems as though the New earth is right here where the old one was, just my [and many others] opinion. God bless

New Jerusalem comes down from God, gathers Her children, and the rest are cast into the lake of fire. Then we will go Home to be with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghsot for all eternity!! I am thankful to God that I am ready for Him to call my name at any time!!

 

[Luke2427]

And yet you've done the very same thing NUMEROUS times

.

It's certainly possible.

We are quite familiar with the verses YOU post, so what's the difference, Brother Luke?

I don't know. You'll have to be more specific.

Follow your own advice, then, Brother Luke

.

I'll try.

What I posted wasn't proof texting, it was the Word the way I have been led to believe, through much prayer, meditation, and studying. I'd venture to guess you do the same thing, Brother

.

No, Willis. It appears that you think you have a point if you can put up a whole bunch of verses. I'm trying to get you to see that that isn't so.

You do not make a point by pasting a verse or by pasting a thousand verses. You only make a point if you do exegesis on the verses you post- in other words, your argument is utterly meaningless unless you tell us WHAT the verse is saying and HOW you came to understand it to say that.

Otherwise you insult the intelligence of the person with whom you are debating by insinuating that they had not considered that these verses are even in the Bible.

Red herring

.

No it isn't

Red herring part two.....boy you caught a bunch on your last fishing trip, Brother Luke.

No, I didn't

I put in my post what I though the scriptures meant

.

No- not enough for it to be meaningful. You did almost NO exegetical work. You did not tell us at all WHY you think those verses support your view and what process of interpretation led you to think that.
If you don't do this, you are just blowing hot air.
The crown does not go to the one who can quote the most verses.

Whenever someone refutes a post that doesn't have one verse cited, people call them out on it. I used several verses, and still get call out on it.

That's why balance is called for. There SHOULD be Scripture in a debate about doctrine. But it should be Scripture rightly divided (exegesis) and the process of doing so ought to be clear in the post.

Yours is not.

I guess I need to post what the London Baptist confession, Calvin, Pink, MacArthur, Beza, and Bunyan have to say regarding this. You'll accept what they say!!

No sir. But you would do well to learn from these men how to reverently, humbly, intelligently and Christocentrically interpret Scripture and how to make worthwhile Scriptural argumentation.

 

[kyredneck]

Rev 2:27 ‘ He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—

Psalm 2
7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”

In Daniel 2 it was foretold that in the latter days 'a stone' [Christ] was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon its feet that were of iron and clay [Roman Empire], and brake them in pieces. Two feet, ten toes; read Eastern and Western Roman Empire and the ten Germanic tribes, the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Alamanni, and the Lombards. Rome was first ruled by the Caesars and then the Germanic tribes. These are also the ten horns of the seventh head of Revelation and the ten horns of the fourth beast of Daniel.

 

[thomas15]

Like I was saying, no "iron scepter."

Check the NIV and the HCSB. Also, refer to Vincent and Robertson's word studies. And while you are at it, explain the functional difference between the concept of a rule with an iron rod vs. iron scepter.

In post 56 I ask the question: "The K of God or the K of heaven. Which one does Jesus rule with an Iron Scepter?"

 

[Greektim]

Check the NIV and the HCSB. Also, refer to Vincent and Robertson's word studies. And while you are at it, explain the functional difference between the concept of a rule with an iron rod vs. iron scepter.

In post 56 I ask the question: "The K of God or the K of heaven. Which one does Jesus rule with an Iron Scepter?"

Just a term I was not familiar w/.

I'll answer your question, but first, let me say that your question is not only loaded but not even the issue. Jesus uses the terms interchangeably. Plus, the word "kingdom" likely is not the best translation and should rather be thought of as the rule/reign/kingship of God or heaven. With that in mind, the answer to you question is both since they refer to the same thing, the reign of God (an essential part of the gospel and likely where the apostles thought to use the term ευγγαλιον for this message of God also from which Isa. 52:7 is the first instance of the word in the LXX and ties it to the rule of God).

 

[ituttut]

QUOTE=Jeremiah2911;1745558] answering Grasshopper.
Brother, I understand where you are coming from, but this is an issue a person could argue till he was blue in the face, and I'm not willing to be dogmatic on issues I'm not sure about, but I rather believe they are different, but I could certainly be wrong![/QUOTE]


If you can bear with me for a moment, when you get time. Jeremiah2911, I believe you are right, which doesn't mean much; but I believe the Bible will back us up. I'm probably not telling you any thing new, but perhaps it is the way OF looking at things, and I know what I see. The best link I know on this subject begins in Genesis 1:1. I believe it will show that God created heaven. And our God, who is very good at separating, and dividing, also created the Earth. God had a plan, and so this is how He started it.

In time He made a man, and then took out a people for Himself. I believe Himself to be the Lord of Hosts who says in II Samuel 7:14, " I will be his father, and he shall be my son…". So we see in time a New man is produced by the Holy Ghost of the Lord of Hosts (Yahwehw) ho is the Father of His Son, Jesus Christ. God was able to keep His word for by David came Mary to deliver that Holy thing conceived in her by the Holy Ghost. Surely Messiah, the King will sit on the throne of David on this earth, and then Satan loosed for a short time from the pit, then on to his place prepared for him. Death and hell pitched in too.

Before we ever hear about the Kingdom of Heaven all we are told is about the Kingdom of God, and before the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, the God of Hosts made promises to His chosen people that come from the loins of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God looks to me to have Two KINGDMS in His plan. One on earth, and another in Heaven. Who will come to worship God in heaven, other than those on the earth?

It looks to me scripture will bear out there is a Kingdom of God, and a Kingdom of Heaven. We also notice God the Father has for Himself the people of Israel, and His Son, Jesus Christ has those that are in the Body of Christ. His people Israel, and only they are promised the earth. But what of we today? Are we Israel? I can't believe this for scripture tells me differently. Ephesians 1:3-5, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children b y Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

My post on page 5 of this thread speaks to the Body of Christ in this age we live in. Are we not told that Heaven will come down to earth? As I live I have chosen Heaven. I believe those who chose the Earthy will go though the Tribulation. We are adopted so we did not come through Israel. WE gained Heaven through Jesus Christ, and I believe that is where He will be for eternity, after time is no more.