PRE-TRIB

The reason I am saying that this present church age is an interpolation is because since Moses and the Law were at one end the Kingdom Age, the Millennium, the 1,000 year reign of Christ are at either end with the age of the church in the middle.

In John 1:11 God through John is telling us that the Israelites will, and in fact, did reject Christ as their Messiah. The John 1:12 speaks of the church age and Acts 1:6 is a more than clear indication that Jesus, after the Second Coming of Christ, will restore {not the Kingdom of God only, but 'the Kingdom of Israel.'

Another explanation of the restored Kingdom of Israel is found in Romans 11:23 & 24.

'If they do not abide in unbelief, they shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again . . . . How much more shall these, {Israelites} which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own Olive tree.'

In Acts 1:6 the Jews thought that perhaps even as they talked with our Lord that they might see the Kingdom of Israel restored; it never happened in their lifetime. After Jesus statement about the Great Commission [vs. 8] He ascended into Heaven [vs. 9] It must have been very lonely for the twelve apostles after Jesus was gone.

We do know in 70 A.D., as a result of their lack of response to their Messiah/Lord, God Providentially allowed the Romans to kill many Israelites, some fled for their lives to other nations, and their sacred Temple was destroyed. This was the price that they paid for their rebellion against His Divine will and plan for their nation and personal salvation.

As we know the Apostle Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, the Church Age, and when this era is ended as described in Paul's words, 'and when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in,' [Romans 11:25e] then the Kingdom Age, our King/Jesus will 'restore again the Kingdom of Israel.' [Acts 1:6] Knowledgeable Christians and theologians call this new era of time, the Millennium-the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. [Revelation 20 & Zechariah 14]

The reason I am saying that this present church age is an interpolation is because since Moses and the Law were at one end the Kingdom Age, the Millennium, the 1,000 year reign of Christ are at either end with the age of the church in the middle.

In John 1:11 God through John is telling us that the Israelites will, and in fact, did reject Christ as their Messiah. The John 1:12 speaks of the church age and Acts 1:6 is a more than clear indication that Jesus, after the Second Coming of Christ, will restore {not the Kingdom of God only, but 'the Kingdom of Israel.'

Another explanation of the restored Kingdom of Israel is found in Romans 11:23 & 24.

'If they do not abide in unbelief, they shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again . . . . How much more shall these, {Israelites} which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own Olive tree.'

In Acts 1:6 the Jews thought that perhaps even as they talked with our Lord that they might see the Kingdom of Israel restored; it never happened in their lifetime. After Jesus statement about the Great Commission [vs. 8] He ascended into Heaven [vs. 9] It must have been very lonely for the twelve apostles after Jesus was gone.

We do know in 70 A.D., as a result of their lack of response to their Messiah/Lord, God Providentially allowed the Romans to kill many Israelites, some fled for their lives to other nations, and their sacred Temple was destroyed. This was the price that they paid for their rebellion against His Divine will and plan for their nation and personal salvation.

As we know the Apostle Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, the Church Age, and when this era is ended as described in Paul's words, 'and when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in,' [Romans 11:25e] then the Kingdom Age, our King/Jesus will 'restore again the Kingdom of Israel.' [Acts 1:6] Knowledgeable Christians and theologians call this new era of time, the Millennium-the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. [Revelation 20 & Zechariah 14]

Probably some of the apostles never knew when the Millennial Age would take place. But, when the Apostle John received the message on the Isle of Patmos he might have had a full concept of when this event would take place. Many of the apostles probably had died by then and were elevated to see the beatific vision. With good Protestant or nonCatholic exegesis we know even more than some of the apostles knew. Evangelical, dispensational theology explains all the answers to the questions that Christians might be asking.

 

Sorry for the double writing in this one post.

Ray

 

Eric,

You said, 'But Christ never said that in the church was "His Kingdom on Earth".

Ray is saying, 'I think you will agree that we can see the church, the called out ones, in our world, but not all are saved; some are tares or chaff. Also, when Jesus was saying, in effect, that His kingdom was not of this world, He was saying that the kingdom is in our hearts, at least His Presence--the Spirit is in our lives.

There will come a time after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ [Revelation 19:11; Zechariah chapter fourteen and Revelation chapter twenty, which will explain that His theocracy and throne will rest securely in Jerusalem, while His fame and followers will live in all parts of the world [Zechariah 14:9]and will be encouraged to come and worship God, [Zechariah 14:16] in His glorified body, even the Messiah.

 

My view is closer to yours in this respect. What I was pointing out was that only in a rather loose sense can we see the Church as the Kingdom on earth. It is a body of people who have Jesus as their King, so it can be called a kingdom, just as it is called a "nation" (1 Pet.2:9). But otherwise, you are right, that the true 9eternal) kingdom is not of the world, etc. so I don't see how the preterists can think that this church age (including all its sin and corruption) could possibly be the eternal Kingdom following the second coming. </font>[/QUOTE]This is key - the preterist never even get to the rapture once they wrench the text and ignore the "details" to the point that they can ignore the words of Chrisd as HE says His kingdom is NOT of this world and teaches His followers (which ARE members of His kingdom since the fall of Adam) to pray "THY Kingdom come".

As Paul says in Hebrews - the followers of Christ ARE strangers and aliens on this world.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Ray,

You wrote, "Jesus will be among us! What a great, great day that will be."

Jesus is among us already. See Matthew 28:20. I spend an hour with him in the Blessed Sacrament every morning.

Practitioners of the Occult recognize this truth - with unfortunate consequences (e.g. attempts to steal the Blessed Sacrament for the desecration of the Black Mass). Why can't you, one who professes faith?

 

When the Jews said to Jesus "Why do the disciples of John fast but your disciples do not fast" Jesus said that when the bridegroom left - his disciples would fast. We see Paul fasting in Acts 21. Jesus said "I AM with you always" but recognized that in fact "I go to prepare a place for you -- " as well as "Where I am go you can not go" John 14.

In John 17 He spells it out in His prayer saying that He is going to the Father - and HIs followers are left IN this world but not OF this world.

In John 16 He said to His followers that He was going away but that He would send the Holy Spirit.

We have the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Bob

 

But the Holy Spirit's presence in us is described somewhere as a "downpayment" on what we will have in the Kingdom. We have one member of the Godhead while the other two are physically [for lack of better term] away. This is not what is promised us for the future, but is a temporary arrangement, so once again, you cannot make this the final fulfillment of Christ "dwelling" with us, but once again, is yet another foretype.

 

Carson Weber,

I too agree with the fact that Jesus lives in our hearts/lives right now. We are indwelled by the Spirit of God. [Matt. 28:20 & I John 3:9] We are one spirit with our Lord. [I Cor. 6:17]

But when I speak of being with Christ in the Millennium I am saying that we will have a glorified body like our Lord's and we will function as the people of God, and be members of His Kingdom Age when He sits on His throne in Jerusalem. [Zechariah 6:12-13 & 14:17] Zechariah 6:13 cannot be any more clear that what is said by the prophet.

It sure would be nice if you would respond to my exegesis of Scripture rather than giving us you party-line views from within Catholicism. If you disagree with my view of the Kingdom Age one might guess that you would want to try to dismantle this erring view. Give it you best shot, in the posts that I have already penned.

You said, 'Jesus is among us already. See Matthew 28:20. I spend an hour with him in the Blessed Sacrament every morning.

Ray is saying, 'You Eucharistic feast is only a memorial of His death, which is very important for us to do, but there is no magic in receiving the wine and the bread which reminds us of His coming to us with salvation. Anyone who has not personally received Christ, [John 1:12] and said come into my heart Lord Jesus, is still on the outside of Christ with no union to Him.

 

The root to the meaning of 2Thes. 2:3 lies in the first verse(2Thes.2:1). This is the same gathering that is revealed in Matt.24:31(see also Matt.16:27,28). This was something Jesus said(whether you choose to believe it or not!) would happen in the generation he was speaking to(Matt.24:34). I agree with a statement made earlier by someone who said Matthew 24 was concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, except I believe all of Matthew 24, including verse 27, was fulfilled. In 2Thes.2 Paul was explaining to the church that some had erred in saying these events had already unfolded. He went on to correct this misunderstanding by telling them that first two things must transpire first: 1) The apostasy(rebellion or falling away); 2) The man of Lawlessness is revealed. Paul then added, "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work"(2Thes.2:7). This event had not already happened as some had supposed, but the beginnings of it seems apparent! This apostasy is the same to which John spoke concerning antichrist which he said was in progress(1John 2:18). Take out your concordance and look up 'antichrist' and you will see it was not concerning a particular person, rather an event concerning numerous people. Look at 1Tim. and 2Tim. and also Jude and you will see predictions of this very event. And this is also the very thing that Jesus spoke about in Matt. 24 as happenening in their generation. That Greek word 'genea' refers to the contemorary generation to which he was speaking, not some yet future generation, nor does it mean the race of the Jews as some would posit. I know many will have problems accepting what I say here, but I believe Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said! Please be like the Bereans and search the scripures to find out whether these things are so. Go with God.

 

Indeed "Christ in you the hope of Glory" Col 1-

For whever two or three are gathered in My Name - said Jesus Christ - there I AM in their midst.

We have the mind of Christ (1Cor 2) and indeed the very presence of Christ outside of the literal 2nd coming of Christ that will happen as Rev 19 describes it - with the first resurrection.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Still, this neglects Biblical typology. Generally, it is held that since the scriptures are for believers throughout the chrch age, that "this generation" refers to the one which sees the final desecration of the Temple. Of course, there was a destruction of the Temple in the first century (but no "abomination of desolation" like you had in the Maccabean period), but there must also be a future antetypical fulfillment of these passages.
Else, how do you really explain 24:30 and 31? Has Christ ever returned in the clouds, like He ascended? (Acts 1:11) Do you really think that the rise of Church hierarchy was this return? If anything, with all the corrpution they would bring, it was actually part of the very fulfillment of 2 Thess. that you discuss! Who/where were the angels? And what was the "gathering"? The growth of the Church as a large organized body? The church was already "gathered" as the apostles wrote, so how do you think this would be fulfilled later, unless you hold the organized Church as it was recognized by the Empire as the Kingdom? And in 16:27, how has everyone been rewarded already? V. 26 tells us that if anyone says "here he is over here, or there he is over there" not to believe it, because there would be false Christs, and that His return would be out of the sky.
16:28 is harder to answer, but we must search the whole scripture (yes, like the Bereans) and not take one not in light of the others and use it to set up a concept that contradicts everything else.

 

I can see your use of Matt 24:34 to date this chapter in the first century. However this verse should not be separated from the surrounding verses:

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

The four verses together form a complete thought. The fig tree is representative of the nation Israel. When the leaves come forth (meaning the restoration of Israel that happened in 1948), it is seen as a sign that the time is coming close. "Even at the doors", Jesus says. The generation mentioned in verse 34 is the generation that sees the fig tree with leaves.

Or in other words, our generation...

Ed

 

Tamborine Lady,

I agree with your first three paragraphs.

If you and I are alive Jesus will take us out of this wicked world to be with Him. [I Thess. 4:17] Some Christians don't like what Jesus said via Paul's words. Only the 'dead in Christ' [vs. 16] will be raised from their graves at the time of the Rapture. The wicked dead will rise from their final resting places after Jesus 1,000 year Theocracy on this earth, [Revelation 20:5] and will be quickly moved to the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation 20:11]

 

Eric B,
Lets discuss some 'Biblical typolgy' as you assert that I neglect. Speaking of 'coming in the clouds' as you mentioned earlier. In Is.19:1 concerning Babylons going against Egypt God says: See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud. I ask you this, was the Lord seen riding(or surfing) literally atop a cloud, of this language TYPIFIED as God being behind a certain judgment or action? Similar language has God on Clouds against Assyria(Is.30:27;Nah.1:3),and against Jerusalem by the Babylonians(Jer.4:13)(see also Ps.18:9;68:4;104:3). Were these events literal or symbolic? If it were as you suppose, then God was seen numerous times literally coming on the clouds in front of these conquering armies! Then how are we to understand New Testament apocalyptic literature if these were in fact symbolic and not literal? If the above stated verses are in fact symbolic then where was it presented to us to now interpret these literal? I am only adhering to 'Biblical typology' as given to us in His word. In Acts 1:11, as you have shown, said "in the same way." Well how was Jesus seen as departing? In a "cloud"! So haw shall he return? In a "cloud". Can this be the same language 'typified' in the Old Testament accounts?
Second. On the case of 'this generation'. This phrase is used in the NT seventeen times(Matt.11:16;12:41,42;23:36;24:34;Mk.8:12;13:30;Lu.7:31;11:29,30,31,32,50,51;17:25;21:32). How many of these would you have as meaning some future generation? Most assign the ones only in the Olivet discourse. Yet the phrases are the same. If you find Matt. 16:28(by which 16:27 is connected) difficult, how about Matt. 10:23;Jo.21:22,23;Heb.10:37;Jam.5:8,9;1Pet4:7. These are truly challenging verses but we must be consistant in our interpretation.

 

All of that is hypothetically possible, but if "coming in the clouds" means "judgement", then what "judgement" was there in the first century? You could say the destruction of the temple was judgment on Israel, but then the same Romans persecuted the Church as well. When the Church became big and powerful, then what was the judgement? Its own persecution of people?
And if "coming in the clouds" was only a symbol of "judgement", then what was departing in the clouds?
It's these contexts that force the literal meaning. Just because it was once symbolic doesn't mean the antetype must be also. Else, then people really could say "The Kingdom is over there" in that church, in that holy city, in those "Christian cultures", etc., which Jesus told us at least twice we were not to believe. The return of Christ marks the end of the age. You have to show that the age has ended, and all sin is put away in the world to prove that we are really now in the final Kingdom.

 

Eric B,

Good post!

It's time for some Christians to come out of the Middle Ages away from the priests who used to chain the Bible to the pulpit, because no one could explain truth but God's agent, the priest.

 

Eric B
Wow. There is so much to explain here, so I will attempt to do this with several posts.
First you ask, "then what 'judgment' was there in the first century?" This surprises me that you are unaware! The NT is about the single biggest event that could affect a christian today. It was a covenant changing judgment upon Israel that would show how inferior the Law was and superior the shed blood of Christ is; the shedding of blood that could remove sin as no shed blood of any animal could do. This old system was to be removed, and as of the time Hebrews was written(62-64 AD) is had not totally run its course, but was slowly fading away(Heb.8:13;10:9). And what was to replace it was about to come! In Hebrews 9:11 and 10:1 the Greek word 'mello' here means 'to be about to be or happen'. Unless you know the Greek and have access to a Greek bible this translation is missed by many modern translations. Ready the entire book of Hebrews will give you the understanding of the covenants in contrast and the changing that was needed. The Roman armies were just an instrument used by God to accomplish His will, just as He had done in using the Assyrian and Babylonian armies to punish and judge OT Israel.
Second you stated, "Just because it was once symbolic(which apparenty means you agree with me that in OT times it was) doesn't mean the antetype must be also." Well I ask you by what authority can such a claim be made? Where in the NT did God say that he has now changed this to be literal? I do know this, though. When the apostles were having so much trouble understanding this figurative language Jesus said, "In the past I have spoken to you figuratively but now I will explain this to you plainly." When He explained this to them they replied: "Yes in the past you have spoken to us figuratively but now you have spoken to us plainly." This tells you that Jesus was using figurative language and because they were having a hard time understanding He explained it to them. And afterward he continued to speak figuratively as the apostles worked to understand, which they eventually did. Also you said that "It's these contexts that force a literal meaning. Else, then people really could say 'The Kingdom is over there.'" Well I believe you have misquoted. It was false Christs not Kingdoms to Jesus warned the disciples to watch out for(Matt.24:23,24;Mk.13:21,22)!
Thirdly you said,"The return of Christ marks the end of the age. You have to show that the age has ended, and all sin is put away in the world to prove that we are really now in the final Kingdom." Definitely I would love to discuss the matter of the Kingdom, but that will have to be later. What I do urge is for you to take out your concordance and look up 'age.' You will see that on many occations ages were ending or nearing an end. In particular read Hebrews 9:26. This will tell you that Christ has already put away sin. And there are other passages that support this as well.
Eric B please forgive me if I seem to be too harsh with you. It is not my intention. I enjoy having this discourse with you even if we disagree. Go with God.