Pre Tribulation Rapture Questions

[Lodic]

There is no regular premill.

Historic premill sees the rapture coming at the end of the great trib, whereas dispensational premill has the church raptured before the trib/great trib. Historic premill and amill are lockstep except in their views of the millennium.

Thank you. I don't know if I'll ever understand all the different views of the End Times.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Thank you. I don't know if I'll ever understand all the different views of the End Times.

Then there’s mid trib...

 

[Lodic]

Then there’s mid trib...

No wonder I'm so confused. I guess that's why so many people just give up and take the "it will all pan out" attitude.

 

[church mouse guy]

Interesting questions. I refer to Abraham's spiritual descendants as either "Christians", or "Spiritual Israel". I'm not sure about calling them (us) Jacob, since that is before God changed him. That might be like saying "Abram's spiritual descendants", when God changed him to Abraham. Regarding the Black Hebrew Israelites who say they are Jews, I confess that I'm not very familiar with them. However, since the genealogical records were largely lost in the Diaspora, I have my doubts. Regardless, whether a person is a descendant of Israel or not doesn't really make any difference. As Paul tells us in Galatians 3:28-29, "there is neither Jew nor Gentile". Backing up to verse 7, he says that "only those of the faith are the children of Abraham". My apologies for a convoluted answer.

Paul also says that there is neither male nor female so does that mean that we should all use the same toilet?

 

[Lodic]

Paul also says that there is neither male nor female so does that mean that we should all use the same toilet?

Good one . He was saying that there is no advantage in being a Jew, and there is no advantage in being a man. His main point was in Gal. 3:29 - "if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

 

[Lodic]

Especially when the definite article is used The Thousand Years

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Isn't that just a matter of using proper grammar?

 

[HankD]

Isn't that just a matter of using proper grammar?

In English - yes.

In Koine Greek - yes, but it also adds the nuance of ID specificity because there is no indefinite article in koine other than "anarthrous" (no definite article).

 

[church mouse guy]

Isn't that just a matter of using proper grammar?

No.

 

[Lodic]

In English - yes.

In Koine Greek - yes, but it also adds the nuance of ID specificity because there is no indefinite article in koine other than "anarthrous" (no definite article).

So John could have made a reference to the 1,000 years in a different way and still have it be grammatically correct? Could you provide an example? (I don't want to put you on the spot, but if you happen to know, I'd appreciate it.)

 

[Lodic]

No.

@HankD was just explaining that to me. Interesting, but it doesn't change my view. On another note, I just realized that part of your signature is a link to a song, and I was just watching it. Absolutely beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

 

[church mouse guy]

Good one . He was saying that there is no advantage in being a Jew, and there is no advantage in being a man. His main point was in Gal. 3:29 - "if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The problem is that it has to mean the same thing for everything. It does not mean that there are no longer slaves because we know there are white slaves and slaves galore in Islam. We know that there are still two genders. And we know that there are still Jews and gentiles.

That verse is not capable of being twisted by preterism because preterists are Greeks who are free and who are either male or female.

 

[church mouse guy]

Interesting questions. I refer to Abraham's spiritual descendants as either "Christians", or "Spiritual Israel". I'm not sure about calling them (us) Jacob, since that is before God changed him. That might be like saying "Abram's spiritual descendants", when God changed him to Abraham. Regarding the Black Hebrew Israelites who say they are Jews, I confess that I'm not very familiar with them. However, since the genealogical records were largely lost in the Diaspora, I have my doubts. Regardless, whether a person is a descendant of Israel or not doesn't really make any difference. As Paul tells us in Galatians 3:28-29, "there is neither Jew nor Gentile". Backing up to verse 7, he says that "only those of the faith are the children of Abraham". My apologies for a convoluted answer.

Jacob refers specifically to the Jews and it is talking about the flight of the Jews after AntiChrist says that he is God. The Jews have been persecuted from ancient times until today.

I am very happy that you like the song "To Be Like Jesus"! I think that we Baptists should borrow it from the Salvationists who wrote it.

 

[Lodic]

The problem is that it has to mean the same thing for everything. It does not mean that there are no longer slaves because we know there are white slaves and slaves galore in Islam. We know that there are still two genders. And we know that there are still Jews and gentiles.

That verse is not capable of being twisted by preterism because preterists are Greeks who are free and who are either male or female.

Agreed - those contrasting groups are still with us. Paul was not talking in a literal sense, but was speaking of our spiritual inheritance. Jews and Gentiles, men and women, slave and free all have the same spiritual blessing when they put their faith in Christ Jesus. I'm not trying to twist any verses. The meaning seems very clear to me.

I see the main point of the Galatians 3 as we are redeemed from the curse of the Law. I'm sure we agree that justification by faith is a key point. That very point is why it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or Gentile, etc. If I may ask, what do you think Paul is saying here?

 

[percho]

Jacob's mtrouble was a prophecy for that time and has long since passed.

Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Jer 30:6-9

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:1 trouble In LXX same Greek word found in Matt 24:21

Prophetically speaking are Jer and Dan speaking of the same time frame and it being the same time frame of Matt?

Isn't the language of Dan the same as Matt. IMHO and I may be wrong it appears to me the Great Tribulation is Jacob's trouble.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

How many kinds of trouble can there be, such as was not?

You said, "danger", I said, "grave danger", you said, "is there any other kind.".
1Lieutenant Junior Grade Daniel Kaffee

 

[Lodic]

Jacob refers specifically to the Jews and it is talking about the flight of the Jews after AntiChrist says that he is God. The Jews have been persecuted from ancient times until today.

I am very happy that you like the song "To Be Like Jesus"! I think that we Baptists should borrow it from the Salvationists who wrote it.

So one should not refer to Abraham's spiritual descendants as "Jacob". For the record, I don't believe in "the AntiChrist", but that's may be a topic for another day.

 

[church mouse guy]

So one should not refer to Abraham's spiritual descendants as "Jacob". For the record, I don't believe in "the AntiChrist", but that's may be a topic for another day.

I will tell you about the Great Tribulation very briefly. There will be 3 1/2 years of worldwide peace even in Israel where the 3rd Temple will have been built in the place where Solomon's Temple was. Animal sacrifices will have been resumed by the Jews. Then the AntiChrist will enter the Temple and proclaim himself god and require everyone to take 666 as a tattoo. The Jews will flee to Petra and everyone else will run for their lives. Those caught who refuse the mark of the beast will be executed. Those who take the mark will go to hell when they die. At the end of 7 years Jesus will return.

 

[church mouse guy]

Agreed - those contrasting groups are still with us. Paul was not talking in a literal sense, but was speaking of our spiritual inheritance. Jews and Gentiles, men and women, slave and free all have the same spiritual blessing when they put their faith in Christ Jesus. I'm not trying to twist any verses. The meaning seems very clear to me.

I see the main point of the Galatians 3 as we are redeemed from the curse of the Law. I'm sure we agree that justification by faith is a key point. That very point is why it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or Gentile, etc. If I may ask, what do you think Paul is saying here?

All it means is that Jesus loves you the same as everybody else no matter what you are and it means that the ground at the Cross is level and it means that there is room for you at the Cross where my Saviour died. It means that you must be washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

 

[Lodic]

I will tell you about the Great Tribulation very briefly. There will be 3 1/2 years of worldwide peace even in Israel where the 3rd Temple will have been built in the place where Solomon's Temple was. Animal sacrifices will have been resumed by the Jews. Then the AntiChrist will enter the Temple and proclaim himself god and require everyone to take 666 as a tattoo. The Jews will flee to Petra and everyone else will run for their lives. Those caught who refuse the mark of the beast will be executed. Those who take the mark will go to hell when they die. At the end of 7 years Jesus will return.

A few questions, my Brother. I apologize up front, as I do not want to appear confrontational. Just looking for a deep discussion, and you strike me as a true Biblical scholar.
1. Where do you find 3 1/2 years of worldwide peace in Scripture?
2. Where do you find a 3rd Temple built in Scripture.
3. Where do you find animal sacrifices resumed?
4. Why would animal sacrifices resume? Jesus was the Ultimate Sacrifice.
5. Where is "the AntiChrist" in Revelation? (I am guessing you are referring to the Beast that comes out of the sea in Rev. 13.)
6. Where do you find the Jews fleeing to Petra?
7. Where do you find 7 years of tribulation in the Bible?

 

[Lodic]

All it means is that Jesus loves you the same as everybody else no matter what you are and it means that the ground at the Cross is level and it means that there is room for you at the Cross where my Saviour died. It means that you must be washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

So a Jew who is not washed in the Blood of the Lamb has no more hope of salvation than a Gentile who is not covered by the Blood. BTW - We are carrying on two conversations. Could we combine them into one for simplicity?

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree with that except that the believers left the city when Cestius surrounded it. All those whose names were in the book were saved. Daniel 12:1

Jesus spoke to the tribulation of AD 70, AND to the future Great tribulation!