Pre Tribulation Rapture Questions

[Lodic]

Where is this found in the Bible?

Not in the Bible. This is conjecture from history. Most "futurist" end-times theories are no less conjecture than my "past" views.

 

[Lodic]

Heresy

No more heretical than recognizing that God "came" in judgment many times in the OT. His "coming" didn't have to be physical or literal.

 

[Yeshua1]

There wouldn't be any mention of AD 70 if Revelation was written during the late 60s, and not in the 90s as many believe. As a matter of fact, the fact that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple is missing from Scripture (except in the Olivet Discourse) is one of the main reasons that I believe all the NT was written by the late 60s.
I completely agree that there will be only one Second Coming. You will note that God "came" in judgment many times in the OT. That doesn't mean that He literally came down from Heaven to Earth. It's all in the language.

Israel will be restored back at time of Coming of Christ, so here was no judgment upon Israel, but upon her spiritual leaders themselves!

 

[Yeshua1]

No more heretical than recognizing that God "came" in judgment many times in the OT. His "coming" didn't have to be physical or literal.

There is NO passages that state Jesus either would come or did come in AD 70!

 

[Lodic]

There is NO passages that state Jesus either would come or did come in AD 70!

There are NO passages that ever state the date when God came in judgment upon a nation. Jesus did say that they (His disciples) would see the Temple's destruction, which did happen in AD 70. This was at the end of the Jewish War (AD 66-70).

Israel will be restored back at time of Coming of Christ, so here was no judgment upon Israel, but upon her spiritual leaders themselves!

Do you have a passage that points to this? If the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was not judgment, what was it? If it had just been judgment upon her spiritual leaders, God wouldn't have destroyed the whole city.

 

[Revmitchell]

No more heretical than recognizing that God "came" in judgment many times in the OT. His "coming" didn't have to be physical or literal.

Brother, you seem like a very gracious person and I realize my response was strong but you are caught up in one of the biggest lies of our day. His coming always must be literal.

 

[Lodic]

Brother, you seem like a very gracious person and I realize my response was strong but you are caught up in one of the biggest lies of our day. His coming always must be literal.

Thank you for you kind words, Brother. I didn't take it personally, as I realize you are very passionate about "rightly discerning the word". If you don't mind my asking, why would Christ coming in judgment have to be literal? I ask because of all the times when God came in judgment in the Old Testament. Having said that, I agree that THE SECOND COMING will be very literal.

 

[Yeshua1]

There are NO passages that ever state the date when God came in judgment upon a nation. Jesus did say that they (His disciples) would see the Temple's destruction, which did happen in AD 70. This was at the end of the Jewish War (AD 66-70).


Do you have a passage that points to this? If the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was not judgment, what was it? If it had just been judgment upon her spiritual leaders, God wouldn't have destroyed the whole city.

He answered the question of what would be happening now, and what would be happening at time of His second coming... Preterists blend the answers all together!

 

[Revmitchell]

Thank you for you kind words, Brother. I didn't take it personally, as I realize you are very passionate about "rightly discerning the word". If you don't mind my asking, why would Christ coming in judgment have to be literal? I ask because of all the times when God came in judgment in the Old Testament. Having said that, I agree that THE SECOND COMING will be very literal.

Well you are going to have to quote scripture where it says "God came in judgment".

 

[Lodic]

He answered the question of what would be happening now, and what would be happening at time of His second coming... Preterists blend the answers all together!

That is no different from a Preterist saying that "Futurists" just apply a double-fulfillment, or that He changes the time frame during His answer. This seems to really come down to how one interprets the passages. Since there are so many different eschatological views, we can be thankful that our salvation is not dependent upon our view of the End Times, but on following Christ as our Savior.

 

[Lodic]

Well you are going to have to quote scripture where it says "God came in judgment".

I'm sorry. I should have included passages earlier. Isaiah chapters 13 through 27 speak of His coming judgment on several nations. Chapter 13 concerns Babylon; Moab's judgment is pronounced in chapter 15, Damascus is the subject of chapter 17. Each of these passages use symbolic language to describe the coming destruction.

 

[David Kent]

Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Jer 30:6-9

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:1 trouble In LXX same Greek word found in Matt 24:21

Prophetically speaking are Jer and Dan speaking of the same time frame and it being the same time frame of Matt?

Isn't the language of Dan the same as Matt. IMHO and I may be wrong it appears to me the Great Tribulation is Jacob's trouble.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

How many kinds of trouble can there be, such as was not?

You said, "danger", I said, "grave danger", you said, "is there any other kind.".
1Lieutenant Junior Grade Daniel Kaffee

Jeremiah was speaking of the coming desolation by Nebuchadnezzar whichj was the worst on the Jews till that time.
Daniel was speaking of the same event as Jesus in the olivet discourse which was the end of the Jewish economy and priesthood in the Roman war. Jesus commanded the Jews to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, the abomination of desolation. Eusebius said no Christians were killed in that war. Daniel 12:1 said "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Speaking of the same event. The Christians at the time, those whose names were written in the book, fled the city and country in accordance with the Lord's command.

 

[David Kent]

4. Matthew 24 in talking about Christs' second coming, not the great tribulation. At the calling out, we meet Jesus in the air, He does not come to earth.

Nonesense. He will descend from heaven and we will meet Him in the air,

If someone comes down from London on a train and I meet them at the station they come back with me.

 

[David Kent]

Well you are going to have to quote scripture where it says "God came in judgment".

• Matthew 31:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
• 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
• 35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
• 36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
• 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
• 38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
• 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
• 40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
• 41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
• 42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• 44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
• 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

 

[Lodic]

• Matthew 31:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
• 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
• 35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
• 36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
• 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
• 38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
• 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
• 40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
• 41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
• 42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• 44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
• 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Thanks, Brother David.

 

[percho]

Jeremiah was speaking of the coming desolation by Nebuchadnezzar whichj was the worst on the Jews till that time.
Daniel was speaking of the same event as Jesus in the olivet discourse which was the end of the Jewish economy and priesthood in the Roman war. Jesus commanded the Jews to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, the abomination of desolation. Eusebius said no Christians were killed in that war. Daniel 12:1 said "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Speaking of the same event. The Christians at the time, those whose names were written in the book, fled the city and country in accordance with the Lord's command.

I think you need to re-read ----- Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Jer 30:6-9

That has nothing to do with Neb, it is relative to the tabernacle of David being raised up. It is a prophesy to Israel and Judah. Israel had been gone for over, at the very least, 95 years.

For them hear Jeremiah's prophesy, they would have to read of it years later.

 

[church mouse guy]

So a Jew who is not washed in the Blood of the Lamb has no more hope of salvation than a Gentile who is not covered by the Blood. BTW - We are carrying on two conversations. Could we combine them into one for simplicity?

Only Christians go to Heaven.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[Squire Robertsson]

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