Brother Bob
New Member
Sorry webdog;
Your post beat mine and I didn't see it.
You said; (we decided to join SBC, who is we?)
Your post beat mine and I didn't see it.
You said; (we decided to join SBC, who is we?)
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Preach/Sing in "Other" Denominations
- Thread starter SOGOSINGER
- Start date
Real world? Get off your high horse.
Constitutions are all well and good as long as they don't consider them on par with scripture and are scripturally consistent. This need for consistency is especially important when you approach issues of member discipline.
Yes. I do but not for something as arbitrary and meaningless as using too much bold type. That example doesn't even closely parallel the OP issue.
If they decide to put me off for doctrinal or practical reasons then I have every confidence that they will have a sound biblical foundation for it. I have seen people put off before. One guy here long before you came was an abject liberal on every account. He was skeptical of virtually every scriptural teaching and Baptist distinctive. Incredibly he was a pastor in Atlanta. I don't know all of the details but I do know that he was eventually put out on a biblical basis.
Court of law? Who said anything about suing a church for being put out? We are talking about what is right and wrong not what is legal or illegal. Christians should abide by the scriptural standard... not man-made statutes... or church constitutions.
The NT defines what a church is and isn't... not human constitutions.
"Protect the church"? Do you mean "protect the church" from challenges to provide a scriptural basis for their actions? That seems to be what you are saying. That the church constitution provides cover when a church fails to behave biblically or to institute biblically consistent rules.
Obviously the poster in question read 1st Corinthians and isn't taking a brother to law. In fact, he has attempted to take those "brothers" to the scriptures for judgment and they appear to have refused.
If leaders are presumptive enough to value their constitution and the human protection it affords over the scriptures and the protection God affords... the I am absolutely certain they will reap the consequences.
So does that constitution trump scripture in a situation like this?
The church has a primary rule... the New Testament.
Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Brother Bob
New Member
You surely are not in the leadership for they worry about getting sued all the time. We didn't used to but times have changed.
Never cease to amaze me how unlearned some are and you started this not me. Who asked you to take over the post.
You have no idea but the Bible is not allowed as a defense in a court of law and if you don't have a constitution then you will be caught with your ignorance showing. This tell me all I want to know about your use of advice and Scriptures.
Just shows that you do err not knowing the Scriptures that they sneak in unawares. Jeepers
I am not alone, all Primitive, Old Regular, United and so on have a constitution. What kind of church are you in or is it they don't consider you enough to show you the constitution, seems so anyway. I guarnatee you that your church has a constitution for there must be some there wiser than you. Seems to me they have found you out and don't want you to know.
Try using it if one of your members takes you to court.
Proverbs, chapter 10
"14": Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.
Instead of taking some good advice --------------
You surely are not in the leadership for they worry about getting sued all the time. We didn't used to but times have changed. [</font>[/QUOTE] I am in the leadership and I know that this is a modern concern... but a concern that should never, ever get in the way of doing the right thing even if it costs us.
The Apostles and early Christians were very frequently jailed, persecuted legally, and even executed for sticking to the Bible rather than men's statutes... Why would we expect different?
Never cease to amaze me how unlearned some are and you started this not me. Who asked you to take over the post.</font>[/QUOTE] Is that supposed to be a "learned" response. No one asked me... or YOU. This is a debate forum. You made statements that I believe are wrong and responded to them with factual, reasoned answers... that is the way debates work. If you want to state unchallenged opinions then this isn't the forum for it.
You have no idea but the Bible is not allowed as a defense in a court of law and if you don't have a constitution then you will be caught with your ignorance showing.</font>[/QUOTE] Not true. The Bible is a legal shelter under the establishment clause as well as freedom of association.
Anyone can sue for any reason... that doesn't mean they'll win.
The most concerning lawsuits come from things like injuries and "child abuse". Those aren't going to be solved by an effective church constitution. OTOH, if you have real data showing that members are successfully suing churches for being biblically disciplined and put out then I'd like to see it.
You aren't suggesting that we use Scriptures. You say that we should depend on a church constitution. I agree that it has its place... a place that is ALWAYS subordinate to the letter and spirit of God's Word.
Just shows that you do err not knowing the Scriptures that they sneak in unawares. Jeepers</font>[/QUOTE] Good grief
. Are you really so impressed with your own opinion that you think you stating an unfounded, unproven conclusion makes it true? Where exactly do you think I have "erred"?We are commanded not to take each other before civil courts. Why? Because it harms the gospel and the testimony of the Church. The text teaches that it is better to suffer loss than to defame Christ.
I am not alone, all Primitive, Old Regular, United and so on have a constitution.</font>[/QUOTE] Notably you didn't answer the question. I don't really care what any of these churches did, do, or will do. The Bible remains the only sound final authority for matters of faith and practice. Even the best church constitutions ARE NOT inspired by God nor are they infallible.
I have been in my current BBFI church for about 3 years. The pastor who has been ministering for about 30 years recently conferred a license to preach to me. I didn't ask for it and considered it for several weeks before agreeing. He wanted to do it for me because I submit to exercising my gifts within the church in support of him, the church, and the gospel. Prior to that, he nominated me as a deacon and I received congregational approval. I don't say these things to boast... only to demonstrate the utter foolishness of your presumption.
FTR, my church does have a constitution. It along with the statement of faith were among the first things I asked for after deciding to consider the church for membership. We drive 30 miles each way to church with at least 7 Baptist churches closer. I am very, very careful who I join with.
Personal attack aside. I never said it wasn't wise to have a good constitution... only that the church's constitution NEVER trumps scripture. If at any point a churches constitution puts them in a position to enforce an extrabiblical view or rule... then it is time to change the constitution.
Seems that you are not nearly as clairvoyant as your pride causes you to think.
Try using it if one of your members takes you to court.</font>[/QUOTE] I certainly would... then again, I don't think we'd be putting someone out without following the biblical steps and without having a very sound biblical case.
Further, I would say it probably isn't a bad idea to restate the biblical method of church discipline in the church constitution.
You have neither proven what I have said is foolish nor offered any "good" advice. I would never accept as "good" the suggestion that doing what is scripturally right should be made subordinate to any human statute, rule, agreement, covenant, or constitution.Proverbs, chapter 10
"14": Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.
Instead of taking some good advice
I would love to be wrong and have you correct me but this seems to be what you are suggesting.
[ May 02, 2006, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]
Brother Bob
New Member
I knew it!!!!
A constitution in Scott J's church what about that. This old dog don't get fooled too easy.
Even though you throw slander at me I wish you well in your ministry. I pray God will bless you according to His will.
I think I understood you to say "with congregational approval"
What you know, Scott J has majority vote too after attacking me.
Lets see He attacked me on "Constitution" when in fact they have one.
Then he attacked me on majority vote when in fact he recieved a license to preach by approval of the majority.
let me see do we go this way or that!!!
A constitution in Scott J's church what about that. This old dog don't get fooled too easy.
Even though you throw slander at me I wish you well in your ministry. I pray God will bless you according to His will.
I think I understood you to say "with congregational approval"
What you know, Scott J has majority vote too after attacking me.
Lets see He attacked me on "Constitution" when in fact they have one.
Then he attacked me on majority vote when in fact he recieved a license to preach by approval of the majority.
let me see do we go this way or that!!!
Brother Bob said:
If the majority of a Church says that you have broken their rules, it don't have to be Scripture then you are gone I am sorry to say. The Church has great power.
Can the church err?
Is the church itself not to be held to the standard of Scripture? Since when did "majority rule" trump God's standards?
If the majority of a Church says that you have broken their rules, it don't have to be Scripture then you are gone I am sorry to say. The Church has great power.
Can the church err?
Is the church itself not to be held to the standard of Scripture? Since when did "majority rule" trump God's standards?
HAY, you're right, I just read the first paragraph and though it was the same, but "HIT AINT".
Here's the "real Mc Coy".
http://www.bbc-cortland.org/faith-covenant.php
Yep... your insight was right on the money.
BTW, I edited my post so you may want to re-read.
Yeah buuuuudddddy.
Please cite where I slandered you. I didn't. I responded to what you said. If you don't like it perhaps you should consider your own provocations.
I didn't attack you. I disagreed with what you said and with the implications of what you said.
I didn't attack having a constitution or even that they were useful. I said and still say they should always be subordinate to scripture. As with anything else, if a church constitution or even human law conflicts with the Bible we should obey God rather than man.
Maybe I missed the specifics or maybe they weren't given by the original poster about what kind of church he'd ministered in. Depending on how far off they were doctrinally, I might even favor biblical correction... but both the standard and the method should be consistent with scripture first and foremost. If the church constitution cannot be enforced while remaining true to scripture then the constitution must be corrected.
When did I "attack" you about "majority vote"?
A majority of people agreeing on a constitution never supercedes the Bible nor does it mean the majority is right. The Bible is always right. Majorities are not... but that is not an "attack" on you. It is a simple statement of fact.
Your evasion/diversion effort to make me look like a hypocrite is dishonest. Just deal with the facts and we'll be fine.
If I am wrong about what I think you are suggesting feel free to correct me. I have confronted (you believe "attack") you and you have not given a response of substance so either I am correct or you have been unable to formulate a response for some other reason.
I like debates because they allow people to exchange ideas and have their own beliefs challenged. I have changed my mind about some things and grown more certain of others. If you don't like to be challenged then you shouldn't put your opinions out there. If you don't like "rough" debating then don't use an accusatory style yourself.
Brother Bob
New Member
Sure the church can err even if they are using Scriptures. Everyone on BB is certainly not always right. Why do you think there is Articles of Faith, Constitution, Rules of Decorum. Its because we all err so we have it written down that we all can alway fall back. Now I know you will say fall back on the Scriptures but it better just be you!! For if it the entire congregation then you got problems "unless" you have the rulesssssss.
Now if you want to hold to what you said so be it but I will tell you same as I told Scott J. I guarantee your church has a constitution too and everyone must abide by it including you.
Tell me do you pull out the Bible when you hire a Pastor. Do you believe in the Scripture that they will seek out your liberty and come among you unawares (my words but the jest). Anyone who says that you don't need a constitution and says that the majority in their church don't have the final say then I doubt it.
Scott J;
I will see you in jail. You did attack me told me to come off my high horse what is that, showing christian love?
For if it the entire congregation then you got problems "unless" you have the rulesssssss.
If when I am right, I stand with Scripture against the entire congregation, then I'm in good company: Martin Luther and Athanasius, just to name two.
Now if you want to hold to what you said so be it but I will tell you same as I told Scott J. I guarantee your church has a constitution too and everyone must abide by it including you.
Once again . . . the original post said nothing about the church's constitution.
Tell me do you pull out the Bible when you hire a Pastor.
Yes, as a matter of fact I do.
If when I am right, I stand with Scripture against the entire congregation, then I'm in good company: Martin Luther and Athanasius, just to name two.
Now if you want to hold to what you said so be it but I will tell you same as I told Scott J. I guarantee your church has a constitution too and everyone must abide by it including you.
Once again . . . the original post said nothing about the church's constitution.
Tell me do you pull out the Bible when you hire a Pastor.
Yes, as a matter of fact I do.
Brother Bob
New Member
Tell me do you pull out the Bible when you hire a Pastor.
Yes, as a matter of fact I do.
Does anyone else have anything to say or just you.
Do you believe in the "thorn in the flesh".
After you have chosen a Pastor then is he approved by the membership?
If the entire congregation is against you don't you think you should take a second look at your stance. I have been wrong over the years and would give anything to take some of it back but I can't. If I had of listen to the majority I wouldn't got out of line.
And no one is saying majority trumps God's standards. All the rules have stood the test of time and have been either changed or prevailed.
Yes, as a matter of fact I do.
Does anyone else have anything to say or just you.
Do you believe in the "thorn in the flesh".
After you have chosen a Pastor then is he approved by the membership?
If the entire congregation is against you don't you think you should take a second look at your stance. I have been wrong over the years and would give anything to take some of it back but I can't. If I had of listen to the majority I wouldn't got out of line.
And no one is saying majority trumps God's standards. All the rules have stood the test of time and have been either changed or prevailed.
Does anyone else have anything to say or just you.
Why? Am I privileged somehow?
Do you believe in the "thorn in the flesh".
What does this have to do with the price of rice in China?
After you have chosen a Pastor then is he approved by the membership?
If the congregation later realizes that the pastor was not the man they thought he was, and they vote to fire him, was one of their decisions an error?
If the entire congregation is against you don't you think you should take a second look at your stance.
And if I do, and I'm still convinced by Scripture and plain reason that I'm the one in the right, then what?
Why? Am I privileged somehow?
Do you believe in the "thorn in the flesh".
What does this have to do with the price of rice in China?
After you have chosen a Pastor then is he approved by the membership?
If the congregation later realizes that the pastor was not the man they thought he was, and they vote to fire him, was one of their decisions an error?
If the entire congregation is against you don't you think you should take a second look at your stance.
And if I do, and I'm still convinced by Scripture and plain reason that I'm the one in the right, then what?
Ro 16:17
¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Ro 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Ro 16:19
For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
2Co 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
The OP wanted Scripture; not bandying back and forth by a couple of adolescents.
To the OP;
I do not know anything about your church. However, in my home church these are the main Scriptures we take our doctrine of seperation from. Accordingly, if you as a member of my church were to be "singing/preaching" in other churches which do not line up with our Statement of Faith and Practice, then you would be called on it and told to stop. If you did not stop, then you would be meeting with the deacons. If you still would not stop then you would be brought before the whole church. If you still did not stop, then you would be sent packing. (Matt 18)
¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Ro 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Ro 16:19
For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
2Co 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
The OP wanted Scripture; not bandying back and forth by a couple of adolescents.
To the OP;
I do not know anything about your church. However, in my home church these are the main Scriptures we take our doctrine of seperation from. Accordingly, if you as a member of my church were to be "singing/preaching" in other churches which do not line up with our Statement of Faith and Practice, then you would be called on it and told to stop. If you did not stop, then you would be meeting with the deacons. If you still would not stop then you would be brought before the whole church. If you still did not stop, then you would be sent packing. (Matt 18)
Brother Bob
New Member
One other question if its ok with you so far what you have said is exactly what I been saying took place all along.
Now I don't believe the Constitution or Article of Faith or Rules of Decorum should trump the Scripture but you know as well as I and we can only read on this board to prove it. You understand of a Scripture may be one thing and your deacon's understanding may be another and your assistant Pastor may be another so you have these rules which have been made over time to be in concert with the Scriptures and as John P. said if they turn out to be wrong then you change them by the majority which you just said your congregation has the final say in choosing a Pastor. I would assume that to be a majority for hardly ever do you get a unanamous vote.
Now I don't believe the Constitution or Article of Faith or Rules of Decorum should trump the Scripture but you know as well as I and we can only read on this board to prove it. You understand of a Scripture may be one thing and your deacon's understanding may be another and your assistant Pastor may be another so you have these rules which have been made over time to be in concert with the Scriptures and as John P. said if they turn out to be wrong then you change them by the majority which you just said your congregation has the final say in choosing a Pastor. I would assume that to be a majority for hardly ever do you get a unanamous vote.
Brother Bob
New Member
av1611jim;
How can you join the discussion with all those remarks and then try and take the "high ground". You started off at the bottom. At least we worked our way down to adolecents, you took off from the start.
How can you join the discussion with all those remarks and then try and take the "high ground". You started off at the bottom. At least we worked our way down to adolecents, you took off from the start.
All your quote contains exactly what we been discussing.
saturneptune
New Member
av1611,
You quote 2 Cor 6:14 as being yoked with unbelievers. The subject of this thread is singing worshiping with different denominations that are Christian, so my first question is, what is the relevency of the verse? My second question is, how do you define which other churches meet your church's faith and order? Down to the last detail such as music, or major issues?
Also, very curious, why would a wayward member be talking to the deacons? Deacons do not run the church. They serve the Pastor and congregation. First, one person confronts, then a few, then, the whole body. Whats with the deacons?
I think we have plenty of denominations that say I am right, and the only way to heaven. Catholics, Church of Christ, Mormons, I really dont think we need another.
You quote 2 Cor 6:14 as being yoked with unbelievers. The subject of this thread is singing worshiping with different denominations that are Christian, so my first question is, what is the relevency of the verse? My second question is, how do you define which other churches meet your church's faith and order? Down to the last detail such as music, or major issues?
Also, very curious, why would a wayward member be talking to the deacons? Deacons do not run the church. They serve the Pastor and congregation. First, one person confronts, then a few, then, the whole body. Whats with the deacons?
I think we have plenty of denominations that say I am right, and the only way to heaven. Catholics, Church of Christ, Mormons, I really dont think we need another.
Tom Butler
New Member
I have sung in Methodist churches, Presbyterian Churches, Cumberland Presbyterian churches, non-denominational churches and a charismatic church. I would hardly characterize them as unbelievers.
On the other hand, I have spoken at a Catholic funeral mass and sung at a Catholic wedding, as well as an Episcopal wedding. I have emceed an interdenominational prayer breakfast. Man oh man, am I in trouble.
On the other hand, I have spoken at a Catholic funeral mass and sung at a Catholic wedding, as well as an Episcopal wedding. I have emceed an interdenominational prayer breakfast. Man oh man, am I in trouble.