Preaching the whole of scripture

[agedman]

John 3:16 comes to mind first, along with Romans 5:8

Neither verse shows proof of the belief.

Who is assuming those in Hell are His "sons" Certainly not I! You took my analogy someplace not intended, as all imperfect analogies seem to end up.

Let me see...Jesus commands US to love even our own enemies which He describes as a "perfect" love...yet He loves His enemies imperfectly?

Ok.

First, your analogy was about you sitting as God in judgment upon your own son. God did do that very event at the cross. It is that you consider God overlooked the sin of His own Son and let His "perfect love" extend even through death and Hell. That is not Scriptural. When Christ rose He said to the woman, "Do not touch me." signifying He had yet to appear before the Father and there was the unfinished business of redemption and restoration/glorification. Your analogy failed.

Second, by extrapolating your "perfect" love view, a believer would then be obliged to even love Satan and demonic forces.

Did Peter love Christ? Not "perfectly" but only as in friendship.

Joh 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou (agapao) me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love (phileo) thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou (agapao) me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love(phileo) thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou (phileo) me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou (phileo) me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love (phileo) thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.​

Christ did not demand of Peter perfect love, but honesty.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Very positive and helpful post:thumbsup::flower::thumbsup:

OK Sure it was......

 

[convicted1]

Willis....that is the point this person was addressing in the article....

Okay??

All are lost ,unless they get saved. Only lost sheep get found....lost goats remain lost in second death.

Well, you posted a while back that only the sheep are lost, the goats are right where they're supposed to be. Now, which is it?

God tells us about predestination for a reason...it is His reason...so we should not object to what he has revealed.....we should make it known.

Correct. Jesus Christ is the center of predestination. We who are saved are grafted into His election(John 15).

John 15 New International Version (NIV)

The Vine and the Branches
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

or the truth.....that Jesus died for a multitude of sinners worldwide...he took on Him the seed of Abraham....He died for whosoever, everyone who believes anywhere in the world

John the Baptist disagrees with you.

John 1:29-31 NIV

John Testifies About Jesus
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

Exactly Willis.....then they might even think......you said all that are given to Jesus.....will come.....and I have not come savingly yet....Lord have mercy on me ...the sinner...save me by your blood in mercy...could it be that you would even save me?{now that would be a good day, right there Willis!:thumbsup:

Anyone who is saved must call out to Him in order to be saved. We must believe that Jesus IS Lord.

or...we believe that they cannot believe unless quickened by the Spirit...so as we are declaring the truth to them we pray...asking the Lord to use the word of God we are offering for His Holy purposes:applause:

Why must they be quickened first, Brother Iconoclast?

This is why the lost die lost.


Hebrews 316-19 NIV
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

The lost die lost due to unbelief, period, and not for lack of atonement.

In Exodus 12, God gave instruction to ALL OF ISRAEL that they must sacrifice a lamb or goat(types of Christ), and then place the blood upon the two side posts and upper door post, and when He would pass by that night, the first born would be killed that did not have this blood applied.


Now, look at Leviticus 16:

20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:(a type of Christ as He bore the sin of the world upon Himself)

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.


So again, anyone who dies lost, does so because of unbelief, and not for a lack of atonement.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The bible says the way to know is IF we keep the commandments.
1John 2:3
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

UHHHHH....YAA

 

[webdog]

Neither verse shows proof of the belief.

Opinions are like nostrils.

First, your analogy was about you sitting as God in judgment upon your own son.

Ahhh....no. It wasn't intended to portray the judge being God, but the fact a death sentence does not equate to a lack of love as you alluded to. Apparently you didn't get the analogy.

God did do that very event at the cross. It is that you consider God overlooked the sin of His own Son and let His "perfect love" extend even through death and Hell. That is not Scriptural. When Christ rose He said to the woman, "Do not touch me." signifying He had yet to appear before the Father and there was the unfinished business of redemption and restoration/glorification. Your analogy failed.

...or your understanding of my intent behind the analogy failed.

Second, by extrapolating your "perfect" love view, a believer would then be obliged to even love Satan and demonic forces.

Non sequitur. We are discussing human love, not Angels and Demons.

Did Peter love Christ? Not "perfectly" but only as in friendship.

Do any of us love "perfectly"? Not a chance...but it doesn't negate the fact that God does and expects us to. If we are going to portray God's love based on how you define it, it is perfectly acceptable and encouraged to hate not only His enemies but our own. One little problem with that...Jesus called us out as being murderers for doing so, and no murderer inherits eternal life.

Oh what a tangled web we weave when we use God's Word to deceive.

Joh 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou (agapao) me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love (phileo) thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou (agapao) me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love(phileo) thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou (phileo) me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou (phileo) me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love (phileo) thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.​

Christ did not demand of Peter perfect love, but honesty.

Matthew 5:48 applied to Peter as much as it applies to us.

 

[agedman]

Why some take poetic, figurative Psalms literally...I cannot understand.

Do you also consistently take the rest of Psalm 5 literally?

Why not?

Is there any indication that it is to be taken figuratively?

There are some psalms that certainly have multiple applications, and some that are not to be applied to this current time, but are for the millennial kingdom, the cross, the time of the temple/tabernacle...

More to the point look at what Malachi records from God:

1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.​

 

[HeirofSalvation]

You back your view with no Scriptures!!!!

I do, in fact, despite your abuse of exclamation points, back them up with Scriptures, in a previous post here:

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 23:11) This may be...the only question I am aware of in the Scriptures, that God simply does not know the answer to. And it hurts him.

:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead: You simply didn't care to read, you simply didn't care to consider, you simply didn't care to acknowledge....then again, I do know this, it is immaterial how many Scriptures I post. ALL, of them will be explained away or ignored.
You have learned merely by repetition that to accuse Arminians of failing to use Scripture is an inerrant "gotcha" therefore we could have posted 1,000 of them and they would be ignored. Allow me to explain, we often have a habit of posting only one or two worthy of serious consideration before we move on with a conversation, because we feel that each one is signifigant enough to merit vetting prior to it's dismissal. As a Cal, you couldn't care less, and instead merely seek to see which side is capable of copy/pasting the higher volume of insignifigant and irrelevant verse addresses.

 

[webdog]

Why not?

Um...because it is a poetic song?

Is there any indication that it is to be taken figuratively?

You tell me. Are the wicked's throats really open graves? I don't see a literal shield around me either.

There are some psalms that certainly have multiple applications, and some that are not to be applied to this current time, but are for the millennial kingdom, the cross, the time of the temple/tabernacle...

More to the point look at what Malachi records from God:

1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.​

When you allow Bible to explain Bible it doesn't support our 21st century definition of hate equating to the absence of love.

 

[Iconoclast]

Okay??

Well, you posted a while back that only the sheep are lost, the goats are right where they're supposed to be. Now, which is it?

Willis....it is just what I wrote...Goats remain in the realm of death.....lost sheep become found sheep.....lost goats are not the object of the search...only the sheep...jn10:26

John the Baptist disagrees with you.

John the Reformed Baptist and I agree Willis...Jesus takes away the sin of the world...not Israel only! Of course since you and I are not universalist...we understand not all Israel was of israel....and not all the world is of the elect:thumbsup:
John 1:29-31 NIV

John Testifies About Jesus
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!





Anyone who is saved must call out to Him in order to be saved. We must believe that Jesus IS Lord.
Why must they be quickened first, Brother Iconoclast?

Because they are dead in Adam....they must be quickened as they are brought into living union with Christ. Men do not want to believe until drawn....no man can come ,UNLESS the Father who sent me draws Him.

This is why the lost die lost.


Hebrews 316-19 NIV
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

The lost die lost due to unbelief, period, and not for lack of atonement.

Unbelief is indeed sad,and it is sin. But in John 8 Jesus told those reprobates that they would die in their ....SINS....plura24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.l

In Exodus 12, God gave instruction to ALL OF ISRAEL that they must sacrifice a lamb or goat(types of Christ), and then place the blood upon the two side posts and upper door post, and when He would pass by that night, the first born would be killed that did not have this blood applied.

but the type is not the fullness...the reality is....the hebrews verse you just posted shows that many of them perished in unbeliefYes he did.....
the typical atonement at the passover....did cause the angel of death to PASSOVER them...physically.....but in unbelief they perished....later on.
Christ our PASSOVER is who applies the blood to the elect...that is why none are lost...Jn 10..romans 8 1cor 5:7

Now, look at Leviticus 16:





20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:(a type of Christ as He bore the sin of the world upon Himself)

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.


So again, anyone who dies lost, does so because of unbelief, and not for a lack of atonement.

So again, anyone who dies lost, does so because of unbelief, and not for a lack of atonement

Willis....anyone who dies in their sins ...has NO ATONEMENT, No PROPITIATION...at all they are uncovered from the wrath of God which abides on them...romans 1 the wrath of God is revealed from heaven, the Love of God is revealed in the cross.....look and live...like the bronze serpent.

Those who did not look.....the bronze serpent did not help at all.....
I believe being that God is the one who determines who benefits from the blood being directly applied.....He does not waste it....It is an exact substition for an exact amount of sins....they are ACTUALLY paid in full....not potentially paid. Many are in hell who never had a chance to believe...but they are dead in sins......and justly punished for each and every sin....
God keeps track........

Genesis 15:16
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

 

[agedman]

Opinions are like nostrils.

And some have deviated septum - doesn't make the breathing easier.

Do any of us love "perfectly"? Not a chance...but it doesn't negate the fact that God does and expects us to.

Can you use Scripture to prove that "God does and expects" what you state as the question, "Do any of us love perfectly?" Seems like you are attempting to state a person cannot do what God does and expects a person to do.

If we are going to portray God's love based on how you define it, it is perfectly acceptable and encouraged to hate not only His enemies but our own. One little problem with that...Jesus called us out as being murderers for doing so, and no murderer inherits eternal life.

Throughout the Scriptures there are examples of what and who to hate is given. And no single verse negates any other Scripture. I haven't "defined" what that basis is, but have shown a few of the Scriptures.

That some may not enjoy the Scriptural principles, or enjoin to them is not a deficit of my lack of definition or portrayal.

Perfect (God's) love, is NOT unconditional; just as a parent does not extend unconditional love to their children much less the neighbor's children.

It is unfortunate that some (and even I) have used unconditional love to express the perfect love of God, but unfortunately it really is an unScriptural.



Believers at times do miss what Peter states it takes to achieve "perfect love."

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

One does not achieve "perfect love" and leave any of the other building blocks out of order, unattended, neglected, or missing. The "divine nature" is not a product of man generated effort, but the precious promises bestowed by work of Christ through the Holy Spirit.

What Peter could not do by the sea side in the presence of Christ he shows can be achieved.

Oh what a tangled web we weave when we use God's Word to deceive.

Matthew 5:48 applied to Peter as much as it applies to us.

Most certainly. No disagreement with those two sentences at all.

 

[convicted1]

Willis....anyone who dies in their sins ...has NO ATONEMENT, No PROPITIATION...at all they are uncovered from the wrath of God which abides on them...romans 1 the wrath of God is revealed from heaven, the Love of God is revealed in the cross.....look and live...like the bronze serpent.

Those who did not look.....the bronze serpent did not help at all.....
I believe being that God is the one who determines who benefits from the blood being directly applied.....He does not waste it....It is an exact substition for an exact amount of sins....they are ACTUALLY paid in full....not potentially paid. Many are in hell who never had a chance to believe...but they are dead in sins......and justly punished for each and every sin....
God keeps track........[/B]

John the "reformed" Baptist? Where'd you pick this up? I have never read that in any version.

Jesus atoned for the sin of the world so that whosoever believes will be saved. Nothing needs to be added to this, neither taken away. Christ died for the ungodly, and Romans 3:23 plainly states that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Again, nothing needs to be added to this, neither taken away. I take solice in this, and I am sure you do, too:"There will be NNE who comes to Christ in true repentence and faith that He will not save!" :thumbs: I am sure we are in agreement with at least this assessment of mine....or at least I hope, and pray, so.

 

[agedman]

I do, in fact, despite your abuse of exclamation points, back them up with Scriptures, in a previous post here:

The typical response of one who has been stung by a post creating discord rather than building accord is:

Blame shifting.

Denial.

Aggressiveness.

Demeaning.


I apologize for my post creating such an upheaval of emotion in you, I probably should have used a far more soft answer.


The one verse you post has nothing to say about the eternal grief for all eternity you suppose upon God to those who are in hell.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 23:11) This may be...the only question I am aware of in the Scriptures, that God simply does not know the answer to. And it hurts him.​

YOU did not answer the question,and by placing humanistic emotionalism of "it hurts him" into the what the verse is expressing is not supportive, either. Does "it hurt him" for eternity? THAT is the question in which you have not provided Scripture to answer.

Besides, if you don't post any verses how will your contention that all will "be explained away or ignored" be valid?

 

[asterisktom]

Jesus atoned for the sin of the world so that whosoever believes will be saved. Nothing needs to be added to this, neither taken away.

A quick question: Where do you find a verse to state that "Jesus atoned for the sin of the world"? I am aware of John 3:16, but it doesn't really say this.

One that is closest in phrasing is John 1:29:

"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

But here we have Jesus actually taking away the sin of the world.

 

[agedman]

When you allow Bible to explain Bible it doesn't support our 21st century definition of hate equating to the absence of love.

This is an awful statement!!!!

How do you suppose to explain the Bible without the Bible?

What do suppose is supporting (y)our 21st century definition of hate equating to the absence of love if NOT the Bible?

What do you use for your final authority if not the Bible?

The 21st century makes the Bible outdated in what ways?

 

[gb93433]

SHOWING THAT THE SCRIPTURE DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION SHOULD BE OPENLY PREACHED AND INSISTED ON, AND FOR WHAT REASONS

What happened to preaching on what Jesus taught?

 

[convicted1]

A quick question: Where do you find a verse to state that "Jesus atoned for the sin of the world"? I am aware of John 3:16, but it doesn't really say this.

One that is closest in phrasing is John 1:29:

"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

But here we have Jesus actually taking away the sin of the world.

Exodus 12 and Leviticus 16, for starters.

 

[convicted1]

What happened to preaching on what Jesus taught?

Now, this is a novel idea right here. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

John the "reformed" Baptist? Where'd you pick this up? I have never read that in any version

It's there in the fine print Willis.....lol...He believed in God's absolute sovereignty,and was a baptist preaching repentance,believed in the Ten Commandments....sounds like a Reformed Baptist to me......although he did seem to question God's providence when he was in prison....

Jesus atoned for the sin of the world so that whosoever believes will be saved. Nothing needs to be added to this, neither taken away. Christ died for the ungodly, and Romans 3:23 plainly states that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Again, nothing needs to be added to this, neither taken away. I take solice in this, and I am sure you do, too:"There will be NNE who comes to Christ in true repentence and faith that He will not save!" :thumbs: I am sure we are in agreement with at least this assessment of mine....or at least I hope, and pray, so.

:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:Overall we agree more than we do not agree .....we just go back and forth on these same couple of issues....
keep serving the Lord Willis....

 

[Iconoclast]

What happened to preaching on what Jesus taught?

This is what Jesus taught,,that is the point of the article.....

26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

 

[convicted1]

:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:Overall we agree more than we do not agree .....we just go back and forth on these same couple of issues....
keep serving the Lord Willis....

I, too, agree, that we agree more than we disagree. Now, if you would only come over to the amill camp.....:laugh: