Which, of course, none do.How nice that even Calvinists freely admit that the DRAWING of God enables all the "choice" that depravity "disables".
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Which, of course, none do.How nice that even Calvinists freely admit that the DRAWING of God enables all the "choice" that depravity "disables".
You speak of Calvinism, or the doctrines of grace however you can not begin to give the biblical usage of the terms in question.....foreknow , predestined,...until you can give the biblical usage of these terms...you are in over your head.What "terms" are you referring to? What are my specific errors concerning my understanding of Calvinism?
They begin life in a state of sin which they did not choose and which they are completely, utterly unable to change.
You speak of Calvinism, or the doctrines of grace however you can not begin to give the biblical usage of the terms in question.....foreknow , predestined,...until you can give the biblical usage of these terms...you are in over your head.
Do your homework, then try again...when you discover the correct biblical usage...then show why it means what you suggest rather than what all the confessional believers have understood....then we can talk.
Mark,
The problem with joining a thread in the middle is that you have too much ground to make up, so I am not going to try. Let me latch on to this one comment of yours, and then see if I can make some sense of your OP in subsequent posts.
The sentence of yours that I quote seems to reveal your philosophical problem with the Reformed view of predestination and election. Instead of just stating a fact (that everyone is born in a state of sin), you offer an excuse ("which they did not choose"). The problem with that line of reasoning is that it counters God's sovereign will of decree.
Romans 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
Adam acted as our federal head when he rebelled against God in the Garden. Sin passed on to all of Adam's posterity because of his sinful act. Ergo, all are born in sin. To add "which they did not choose" is an unnecessary prepositional phrase. Yes. All who are born are born in sin.
It does not matter whether all who are born possess the ability to choose their spiritual condition or not. God spoke in Genesis when He pronounced judgment on Adam. God is the One who chose. Human beings cannot throw that back in God's face.
I will try to deal with the predestination and election issue, but it may take me a few days. Our power was just restored late yesterday afternoon after being knocked out by Hurricane Irma. I have a lot to catch up on.
Blessings.
The Calvinist argument is that the saved/not-saved outcome is not based on the sinner who accepts or does not accept the Gospel -- but on God who wills that some get saved and does not so-will for others EVEN though God goes through all the pain and suffering to be the "Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and NOT for OUR sins only - but for the sins of the Whole World"
The Bible does not specifically tell us. We can’t say for sure. But I think it is possible that Paul and Peter were both referring to the fact that God knew ahead of time who, given the right opportunities and circumstances and help from Him, would freely accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
In his love for His elect, He IS loving His enemies. LOLDoes the God who taught us to love our enemies hate His?
This is an old chestnut. You're simply saying God knows who are good enough to make the right choice. It's salvation based on merit and works, not grace through faith.
In his love for His elect, He IS loving His enemies. LOL
Making a choice is how you define faith, not the Calvinists or the Bible. When Adam became a living soul, it was because God put breath into him. God did not think that Adam would begin breathing on his own given the right circumstances. In fact, if Adam willfully held his breath till he passed out, he would begin breathing again once his will had been neutralized.Aaron, thanks for writing.
Your comment is an example of what I believe is a common Calvinist way of thinking and speaking which is quite different from the Bible's way of speaking and thinking.
Specifically, Calvinists speak as if faith is a type of work.
Lol. Let this saying sink into your ears. Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.Yes, all of us were God's enemies and were loved by Him. But do you believe that God wants us to love only some of our enemies? Does He love only some of His?
Making a choice is how you define faith, not the Calvinists or the Bible. When Adam became a living soul, it was because God put breath into him. God did not think that Adam would begin breathing on his own given the right circumstances. In fact, if Adam willfully held his breath till he passed out, he would begin breathing again once his will had been neutralized.
Faith is the same way. I either have it or I don't. If I have it, I didn't get it from Adam. It's not part of being human. It's God's gift. And if I have it, it works in me.
But you will say faith is part of being human. Or you might say that upon hearing the Word of God, faith is imparted, and we can choose to exercise it or not, or any myriad of ways that boils down simply to this:
It all depends on a choice I make, and if I make the right choice, it's because I'm somehow not as fallen as the one who didn't. There is no alternative conclusion.
Lol. Let this saying sink into your ears. Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
The entire myth of "free will" is a denial of the word of God and of the God of the word.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
The unsaved person's will is not free. It is in bondage to the law of sin and death.
The saved person's will is not free, it is bound to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Who says they can't hear the Gospel? It is the Gospel call which God uses to draw people unto Christ.people who are not saved are unable to hear the gospel and respond to it.
What part of God's efficacious Grace do you think is a failure? And He redeems those He chooses according to the good pleasure of His will. Are you suggesting He is not allowed to do so? Or that you are more compassionate than He?But, if your view is true, then why does God not give this "irresistible grace" to everyone, since He desires all to be saved:
That would be the minority view among us Calvinist,as that is held by the so called high Calvinists, bordering on Hyper Calvinism.You are referring here to robocop3's statement:
"But I do NOT believe He predestinated anyone for hell, with no chance for salvation."
It seems to me that a number of well-known Calvinists that most would view as "mainstream, normal, standard Calvinists" believe that God predestines some to Hell, a doctrine called "double predestination" or "reprobation" (I'm sure you know what it's called, I share this for others who may be reading).
For example Wayne Grudem defends reprobation on pages 684-687 of his Systematic Theology book.
The Desiring God website explains the John Piper, perhaps the most well-known Calvinist on the planet today, believes in double predestination:
The "sixth" point, double predestination, is simply the flip side of unconditional election. Just as God chooses whom He will save without regard to any distinctives in the person (Ephesians 1:5-6; Acts 13:48; Revelation 17:8), so also he decides whom He will not save without regard to any distinctives in the individual (John 10:26; 12:37-40; Romans 9:11-18; 1 Peter 2:7-8). By definition, the decision to elect some individuals to salvation necessarily implies the decision not to save those that were not chosen. God ordains not only that some will be rescued from his judgment, but that others will undergo that judgment. (from What Does Piper Mean when He Says He's a Seven Point Calvinist).The website which represents the "teaching ministry of R.C. Sproul" also has an article explaining and defending reprobation.
It seems to me that "double predestination" is actually a normal, common, teaching among popular, top Calvinist teachers.
But even if this wasn't true, what real difference is there between God predestining some people to go to Hell, and God only predestining some to go receive eternal life knowing that the others will certainly, without any doubt at all, go to Hell?
You misunderstand how we view the fall, election, free will etc!What "terms" are you referring to? What are my specific errors concerning my understanding of Calvinism?
Here is the REAL objection to God being allowed to be sovereignHin How he works how salvation, it offends us, as some see it as not being fair!Who says they can't hear the Gospel? It is the Gospel call which God uses to draw people unto Christ.
What part of God's efficacious Grace do you think is a failure? And He redeems those He chooses according to the good pleasure of His will. Are you suggesting He is not allowed to do so? Or that you are more compassionate than He?