Featured Predestination and Means

A statement of fact, NOT an invitation.

 

Regarding 1John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us"


Look closely at verses 1-5
1What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—
2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
(NASB)

Notice the contrast between "we" and "you"

"We, us, our" refers to the eyewitnesses. He went to great pains to establish this as his starting point.

"You" are the recipients of the letter.

He said "we write to you...we announce to you..."

Then, "walk in the light" which I believe to be synonymous with walking in the truth (3John 1-4)

Then in chapter 2:
18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

In verses 19-21we see the contrast of pronouns again, with a couple of additions:
We, us, our, I = eyewitnesses
You = recipients of the letter
They = false teachers, Gnostics

"They" were never among the eyewitnesses. Also, 2Peter 1:16-21:

16For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”— 18and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

19So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

 

One frequent criticism made about Calvinists is that they proclaim the Gospel in vain.

They do.

After all, since only the Elect will be saved, and God has chosen His elect from eternity, preaching the Gospel is unnecessary.

True.

What these critics do not understand is that God has ordained the means by which the Elect are called to repentance and faith. Saving faith comes by the preaching of the Gospel*.

This is a contradiction that God has chosen His elect from eternity.

God's word is a living thing, and is capable (through the work of the Holy Spirit) to convict of sin and regenerate the heart of man.

I agree 100%. But this also is a direct contradiction of God has chosen His elect from eternity.

Calvinist preachers understand the powerful weapon they wield when they proclaim the Gospel.

That is free will. Or else the powerful weapon they wield is as useful as a non-powerful non-weapon.

The Puritan's understood this; Charles Spurgeon understood this; and Calvinist preachers today understand this.

Purutains (working for their salvation) are all gone. Spurgeon is a false idol to Calvanists. They constantly violate Exodus 20:3 with this guy.... Thou shalt have no other gods before me..

*Any method of evangelism that roots itself in scripture is ubiquitous with preaching the Gospel; i.e. print or online media.

Evangelism = not needed per the above mentioned demigod.

 

Spurgeon is not a false idol. He is an historical figure in the history of the Church, a man used of God in the conversion and edification of many many people. He's my big brother whose writings point me to Christ.
I fear he is hated by some because of his theology and the enormous impact of his ministry.
George Whitfield was also a Calvinist. He was used of God to light the fires of the Great Awakening. Whitfield and Spurgeon were also committed Evangelists who preached the Gospel, first and foremost because God commands it. They preached joyfully and expectantly, knowing souls would be saved because God uses the preaching of the Gospel to reach the Elect.
Folks who bad mouth Calvinists as preaching in vain, are ignorant of what Calvinist actually believe and why. I attribute this to laziness and/or pugnaciousness. To lazy to listen and learn what the opposing view is and a need to fight for fighting's sake are not healthy ways to live.
An example: baptism. As a Baptist, I know why I believe the way I do. I also have a good understanding of why Presbyterians practice baptism as they do - because I put in the work of listening and learning! I don't agree with my Presbyterian brothers, but I don't slander their beliefs with misrepresentation either.
To be sure, there are also lazy and pugnacious Calvinists as well as Arminians. I try to avoid arguments with them too because as the old saying goes, arguing with them is like wrestling with a pig: everyone gets muddy, but the pig likes it.

 

"There is a difference between falling into sin and reprobation"


Falling into reprobation? Start by laying on the floor, now try to fall.


Calvinist seek excuses for people sinning. Its because this guy is a reprobate, no its because God ordain that I sin here.........

Here is a novel idea for Calvinist, You sin because its YOUR FAULT. No its not because your depraved nature's fault....... Not its not because God hasn't regenerated your common sense.

The reason you sin is YOU WANTED TO and it is 100% totally Your Fault. Repent for once, quit passing the buck, take responsibility.

 

Excellent exegesis brother!

 

It seems to me that your theory breaks down at 1 John 1:5-9; 1 John 3:1-3, 16-23 etc. Do these verses only apply to the 'eyewitnesses'? Is it not rather the case that John is associating himself with the recipients of the letter in these verses? And if so, then why should 2:18-19 only apply to the 'eyewitnesses'? These people left the Church. They left John and the other Apostles and they left every other Christian on the planet., thereby showing that they were not Christ's sheep.

 

No. What you are mistaken about is the correct definitions of those terms.

Well, that's not what I said, but you already know that.

What part in that requires the cooperation of the human will? What part is 'of blood, or the will of the flesh, or the will of man'? None. We're totally passive in it. It's all of God. This is the eternal ASPECT of our ONE salvation.

Now consider a temporal aspect of our salvation (one of many, many examples that could be given):

12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and questionings:
15 that ye may become blameless and harmless, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom ye are seen as lights in the world,
16 holding forth the word of life; that I may have whereof to glory in the day of Christ, that I did not run in vain neither labor in vain. Phil 2

We are commanded to act, to literally work out our salvation while in this temporal realm. We are obliged to obey with "fear and trembling" of the consequences for not doing so.

See post #15. None of the redeemed will ever perish eternally. They may lose the God given deliverances and suffer many woes in this temporal realm because of their sins, but eternally they are secure.

I'll defer to JamesL's excellent post #23.

[add]

It is a gross misapplication of the passage to use it to categorize all those who don't persevere to your standards as antichrists.

 

Peter said they were eyewitnesses of his majesty. In Acts chapter one, they chose one to be a witness of his resurrection.

 

I don't deny that at all. Please just look at the texts I quoted from 1 John and see if they appear only to apply to the Apostles. I can't see that they do. they apply to all Christians, including John, which is why he uses the word 'we.'

 

Yes, a witness, every whit as in an eyewitness to testify in a court of law.

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10:39-42

For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Pet 1:16

This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2:32

and ye also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. Jn 15:27

Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection. Acts 1:21,22

But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:30,31

For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures; and that he appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve; then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep; then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to the child untimely born, he appeared to me also. 1 Cor 15:3-8

and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:15

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree....And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:30,32

And with great power gave the apostles their witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Acts 4:33

 

Yes, and much more than "I saw that guy at the grocery store one day"

 

I don't think it's any stretch to think of "we" as including "you" sometimes, and excluding "you" at other times

I think the difference is going to be whether or not there are any of "them" in view also, and a pretty simple plain reading ought to delineate

 

Salvation happens at a definite point in time for us, but we are to be growing and maturing once reborn!

 

That God Himself will make syre that none sealed will ever get unsealed and lost again!

 

Is there scripture that articulates what you've just said? You just regurgitate this stuff out with no scriptural backing at all. I asked you previously to expound on what 'sealed with the holy spirit' really, scripturally means and you just parrot the status quo of the system you identify with, much like Reformed and several others on this board.

 

Ephesians 1:13

New International Version
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

New Living Translation
And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

English Standard Version
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
And in Him you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, having heard and believed the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

Berean Literal Bible
in whom you also, having heard the word of truth, the gospel your of salvation, in whom also having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

King James Bible
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

The context of Ephesians 1:13.

Ephesians 1:3-14
[3]All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ.
[4]Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.
[5]God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.
[6]So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son.
[7]He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins.
[8]He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding.
[9]God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure.
[10]And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth.
[11]Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
[12]God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God.
[13]And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.
[14]The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.