Predestination is that of a saved man unto a resurrection body in Christ's image

[Alan Gross]

If it is God who said - Whosoever believeth in Christ will be saved and have everlasting life (Rom 10:11, 13, Jn 3:16) - then it's a true statement to say "God wills that they who believe shall be saved".

If it is God who said in Jn 15:4 to abide in Him, then it is a true statement to say "God wills His disciples to abide in Him". It does not matter what other truths are brought to bear on this, as valid and relevant as they may be - but this is independently true because it's a direct citation of Scriptures. You may very well say, "but none can abide in Him unless God graciously worked in him and caused him to do so" - and yet it is true that God wills His disciples to abide in Him because that's quoting Scriptures directly. If one were to make the additional claim that disciples are themselves able to self-cause their own abiding apart from the grace of God, you could contest that - but not the preceding simple quotation of Scriptures.

Similarly, you cannot call a direct citation of Scriptures as untrue just because you disagree with what's to follow - contest the statements made on their own merit. Whoever believes in Christ will be saved is a Scriptural citation and must necessarily be true for all time - how one misapplies this elsewhere can be separately contested.

Congratulations.

You have officially re-written passages before Salty shut the post down.

No, every word you write, as if it is the Wording of the passage, or even in the re-write, is not a "true statement".

Do you say that Total Depravity is something you believe, because you may say it is in a couple of verses, but that, no, IT IS NOT 'TAUGHT', OR THE OPPOSITE IS 'TAUGHT', in most other verses, so you are Arminian and simply say, you are not Arminian?

Diagram this: "God wills that they who believe shall be saved".

GOD WORSHIPS MANKIND: ( First) they who believe .... (Second) [ God wills that ] .... shall be saved
Not 'true' in a Billion years.

And it is not the same as diagramming this: Whosoever believeth in Christ will be saved and have everlasting life;

SAVED MAN WORSHIPS GOD: Whosoever believeth in Christ .....[ and have everlasting life] (that Initiated the Believing) .... will be saved (because they are Sealed)

"Direct citations" have to be interpreted, using other passages. ALL of the passages.

"God so Loved The World that"..... "love not the World, neither the things in The World".

Words in the Bible can't just be plucked around.

 

[Alan Gross]

That's "election", not "predestination".
For a group that is stringent about nuances and technicalities and true representation, our Calvinist brethren suddenly drop the distinctions they upheld once it suits their system.

"For a group", includes The Author of The Bible.

God is not Illiterate.

Technically, God is God.

He is Allowed, by some, to Use His Terminology all the way in the next verse that He Specifically is EXPRESSING.

He Can even use the same, or different Words, throughout an entire passage, by The Good Pleasure of His Own Will.

Imagine being able to read The Bible, as if He Was God.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (GOD)

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[37818]

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Re: Ephesians 1:4-5.
Romans 8:23, ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." Romans 8:29, ". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, . . ." 1 John 3:2, ". . . when he shall appear, we shall be like him; . . ."

 

[George Antonios]

Re: Ephesians 1:4-5.
Romans 8:23, ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." Romans 8:29, ". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, . . ." 1 John 3:2, ". . . when he shall appear, we shall be like him; . . ."

Simply exactly!

 

[ivdavid]

GOD WORSHIPS MANKIND: ( First) they who believe .... (Second) [ God wills that ] .... shall be saved
Not 'true' in a Billion years.

But where have you seen me, ivdavid, sequence it this way or interpret it this way? That's my question.
The statement was simply a rendition of Scriptures and as you said, there could be a right way to interpret it and a wrong way to interpret it as with anything - my question is how did you arrive at the conclusion that I'd wrongly interpreted it? The same words could've been presented with me intending the right interpretation too - how did you validate which it is, what are your grounds?

You're simply objecting to the possibility that God actually finds people with their own self-generated faith and then saves them on that basis - but that's not been mentioned anywhere by me here. I do not hold that belief myself - so where did you read that in what I'd written? And if you can't show me from my own presented beliefs, then how did you conclude that I was wrong and that I was speaking untruth? How are you so sure of what another believes without taking the time to listen or examine? I am merely fact-checking you on your irrational jumping to conclusions....

 

[ivdavid]

If that passage does not say that adoption takes place when the body is glorified then I am not smart enough nor do I have enough discernment to even read the scriptures, much less understand them.

This has been one the main points of disagreement here, yes. The point is, there are some verses that make plain sense for what it is even when read in isolation - some other verses seem plain in one place but throw contradictions elsewhere. Our interpretation must reconcile all such places as a whole - that's the goal, that's where we unite on the truth.

I have conceded readily that Rom 8:23 does lend itself to reading that adoption is something we are to wait for - and the only reason I do not accept that as a finality is because it throws contradictions elsewhere in Gal 4:5-6 and Eph 1:5-6 which instead point to us having already received the adoption. Therefore, to reconcile all these together, the alternate explanation for Rom 8:23 is that it mirrors Rom 8:19, only having abbreviated the phrase "the manifestation of" (the adoption) - where the wait is for the manifestation/revelation of the already adopted son. I am in agreement on every other point presented so far.

 

[Alan Gross]

Re: Ephesians 1:4-5.
Romans 8:23, ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." Romans 8:29, ". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, . . ." 1 John 3:2, ". . . when he shall appear, we shall be like him; . . ."

Yes, there is a Spiritual Component to The Bible and to Salvation.

If you are trying to say that The Spiritual Component of Salvation is left out of "adoption" and God's conforming His children "to the image of His Son" and the element in which "we are like him", that is cute.

Nothing to do with "waiting for" the Consummation of "The adoption", or anything else, but just as cute as it can be.

Basing Eternal Salvation Hopes on The Body, only, is not led of the Holy Spirit though, is it?

These OPs and replies pop right out of the flesh though, don't they?

 

[37818]

Yes, there is a Spiritual Component to The Bible and to Salvation.

If you are trying to say that The Spiritual Component of Salvation is left out of "adoption" and God's conforming His children "to the image of His Son" and the element in which "we are like him", that is cute.

Nothing to do with "waiting for" the Consummation of "The adoption", or anything else, but just as cute as it can be.

Basing Eternal Salvation Hopes on The Body, only, is not led of the Holy Spirit though, is it?

These OPs and replies pop right out of the flesh though, don't they?

The predestenation of the saved to recieve immortality, the resurrected body there is no disagreement. Some interpreters insist that predestination does not begin until one is first saved. Others hold it begins with the election of the saved in the eternity past with God. There is a disagreement that with the group election some how disallows the indiviuals election in eternity past. That exclusion of the individuals within the group (Ephesians 1:4) makes no sense to me. God is omniscient.

 

[George Antonios]

This has been one the main points of disagreement here, yes. The point is, there are some verses that make plain sense for what it is even when read in isolation - some other verses seem plain in one place but throw contradictions elsewhere. Our interpretation must reconcile all such places as a whole - that's the goal, that's where we unite on the truth.

I have conceded readily that Rom 8:23 does lend itself to reading that adoption is something we are to wait for - and the only reason I do not accept that as a finality is because it throws contradictions elsewhere in Gal 4:5-6 and Eph 1:5-6 which instead point to us having already received the adoption. Therefore, to reconcile all these together, the alternate explanation for Rom 8:23 is that it mirrors Rom 8:19, only having abbreviated the phrase "the manifestation of" (the adoption) - where the wait is for the manifestation/revelation of the already adopted son. I am in agreement on every other point presented so far.

I understand what you're saying, but the problem here is the following:
it's not as though the body has already been redeemed and now only waiting for simply an external manifestation of said redemption; for if your body has already been redeemed, and is only waiting to externally manifest that accomplished fact, then you are already sinless in the flesh, since your body has already been redeemed [adopted], and you're now just waiting to "show out". But you and I are still sinful in the flesh, and so we are not just waiting for the manifestation of a present redemption-truth [concerning the body], because it's not yet even a present truth. The present truth of our body is: Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
So the deliverance [adoption] itself is future, not just the manifestation thereof.
This highlights the importance of rightly dividing (2Ti.2:15) between the spirit, soul, and flesh.

 

[George Antonios]

If you are trying to say that The Spiritual Component of Salvation is left out of "adoption" and God's conforming His children "to the image of His Son" and the element in which "we are like him", that is cute.

Nothing to do with "waiting for" the Consummation of "The adoption", or anything else, but just as cute as it can be.

Basing Eternal Salvation Hopes on The Body, only, is not led of the Holy Spirit though, is it?

That particular point was addressed in the video. Obtaining a glorified Christ-like resurrection body is not "salvation" per se, but a blessing that is connected to salvation, as Paul introduces the predestination unto such a body as a blessing in Ephesians 1. We have been predestinated unto a blessing, not salvation. Please consider that God could have saved us and given us a resurrection body without it necessarily being like that of Christ's resurrection body; it could have been an angelic body, or a pre-fall-Adamite body.

 

[Salty]

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