saturneptune
New Member
Well, see you are back. Figures.
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Predestination: Meaning and Application
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saturneptune
New Member
Jarthur001 said:This is to silly.
Do you even believe in election? Do You believe God Choose one over another? If not..you will never understand.
Come tell us now...are you a Calvinist like you have said...and if so..why?
Have some backbone. Did not God die for you? Can you not take a stand for God?
If anyone hates you..who cares? You hate, do you think i care??
Tis God I will stand for. Tis His salvation and His plan.
Are you deaf!!!! Yes, I believe in election. You are the one without backbone. You are the one without conviction. You use long, meaningless posts to cover the fact along with your rude arrogant style. Please become an Arminian, and take Dale with you.
Brother Bob
New Member
You don't believe in an all knowing God?11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
I have a good idea. Lets just believe Gods Word. Sounds go to me.
If He saw Esau sell his birthright before he was born He certainly was not going to choose him over Jacob.
He saves His believers because they have faith. He is not going to save the unbelievers unless their deed be reproved.
God knew James; God knew for He is an all knowing God. He is I am that I am.
They may not of done any good or evil but God knew who would.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
Thanks for the listen.saturneptune said:
Now do you believe and Hold to election? Will you take a stand for God and Gods Word? Or will you let others rule over you in fear?
Did God choose some and not others? Come now..it seems you are ashame. If so..just says so..and I'll let up.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Good...now give me a good verse that shows this.saturneptune said:
For some do not believe God will choose one over another.
Baptist_Pastor/Theologian
New Member
Here is an outline I found on the subject of Revelation. It could be very helpful in defining the intricacies of this discussion.
General Revelation
General Revelation
- Introduction
- The two main forms of general revelation are the physical universe and the human conscience (and perhaps a third is providential history)
- It is called "general" because this revelation is accessible to all at any time or era.
- Forms of General Revelation
- The Physical Universe
- Key verses:
The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the end of the world.
-- Psalm 19:1-4 ...What may be known about God is plain to [sinful humanity], because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that humanity is without excuse.
-- Romans 1:19-20 - General revelation is "universal". (See Psalm 19:4 above)
- What can humanity understand about God through general revelation?
- God's existence
- God's power
- God's order/rightness
- God's wisdom/knowledge
- God's greatness/supremacy
- God's goodness (see Acts 14:16-17)
- What are the limitations of general revelation?
- Nature contains enough truth to bring responsibility to humanity to honor God as creator and give him thanks (Romans 1:20-21)
- General revelation contains enough truth to bring guilt if not acted upon properly. (Romans 1:18)
- General revelation does not provide enough truth to result in spiritual salvation since it contains no information/revelation regarding Christ and his death for sin (John 14:6; Romans 10:14; Acts 4:6)
- Key verses:
- The Conscience of Man
- Key Verses: ... [Even pagans] show that the requirements of the law are on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing or defending them.
-- Romans 2:15 We [Christians] have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the Word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
-- 2 Corinthians 4:2 - The Universality of Conscience (see 2 Cor 4:2)
- The Definition of "Conscience"
- The NT word literally means "a seeing together"
- It refers to an innate discernment
- It is an inborn ability within humanity to judge right from wrong
- The Action of "Conscience"
- It judges the rightness of one's own actions, thoughts and attitudes in light of a known law or standard.
- "It bears witness" (Romans 2:15; 9:1) in effect saying, "I have been obeyed or disregarded"
- It does not make an individual's decisions.
- The Contents of "Conscience" (and thus General Revelation)
- The seemingly universal reality of conscience within a person implies the existence of God or at the least a Supreme Law Giver.
- The mechanism of the conscience implies that this God/Divine Being is "Righteous" since the conscience is [a;ways] designed to discern the right from the wrong.
- The Limitations of "Conscience"
- In itself, it offers enough truth to bring responsibility and guilt when violated (CF. Romans 2:15)
- It does not provide enough truth to believe to bring about spiritual salvation since there is no revelation through it of Christ and redemption.
- Key Verses: ... [Even pagans] show that the requirements of the law are on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing or defending them.
- Providential History
- The Physical Universe
- The Purpose and Results of General Revelation
- It is meant to persuade mankind to seek God. (See Acts 14:17; 17:24 - 27)
- It helps to meet a natural need of humanity for some knowledge of its Creator.
Brother Bob
New Member
Thats ok BP/T James and I agree on Verse 18 which is talking about the Gospel and your paper is on something else. But being you posted it what if some of the "elect" is mixed among all those people you are talking about under the "General Revelation". Sound to me like everyone under this General Revelation is like the Non-Elect the Calvinist talk about they know all about God and Him being Supreme, The know they are lost, They know right from wrong but here are some people, lot of people that God put under this General Revelation who can't do nothing about dying and going to hell. Another Calvinist movement sounds to me like.
Say it is to cause an individual to seek God of which he has no means to do so. I will take the Scriptures.
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Say it is to cause an individual to seek God of which he has no means to do so. I will take the Scriptures.
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
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Baptist_Pastor/Theologian
New Member
Special Revelation
- Definition
The acts of God whereby He makes Himself and His truth known at specific times and to specific people</I> - Forms of Special Revelation
- Personal Experience (cf. Galatians 2:2)
- Hearing an audible voice (like Samuel in 1 Samuel 3)
- Having a dream (like Joseph in Genesis 37)
- Seeing a vision (like Paul in Acts 16)
- Being spoken to by an angel (like Mary in Luke 1)
- Some Miracles (dunamis)
- Definition (of dunamis): An unusual event, not solely the product of natural laws, accomplishing some useful work for God and revealing the presence and power of God.
- The Conceptual Content of dunamis
- the Existence of God
- the Power of God
- the Goodness of God (through healings and provisions)
- the Righteousness / Judgment of God
- the Supremacy of God (e.g. toward Nebuchanezzar)
- the Immanence of God
- Three Historical Periods of Miraculous Prominence in Biblical History
- In the time of Moses
- In the time of Elijah and Elisha
- In the time of Christ and his Apostles
- The Limitations of dunamis
- They usually (if ever) do not contain sufficient truth to save
- The Plagues in Egypt through Moses (Exodus 7-12) showed God's supremacy and righteousness, but did not save the Egyptians.
- The unending supply of oil and flour through Elijah (1 Kings 17) showed God's power and mercy, but did not speak toward spiritual salvation (though physical preservation/salvation is present).
- The feeding of the 5000 by Christ (John 6) showed God's power and mercy, but had no impact of the crowd's leanings toward spiritual salvation (see Jesus' own comments in John 20:31).
- The Historical and Contemporary Continuance of dunamis
- They still occur today
- There is still regeneration of those who trust Christ (which can indeed entail the miraculous)
- There are healings in answer to prayer
- They do not usually seem revelatory to us today, but may in fact be quite revelatory in countries not having ample access to the Bible, where the need for this type of special revelation exists.
- They still occur today
- They usually (if ever) do not contain sufficient truth to save
- Prophecy
- Definition: The giving forth of instruction and teaching (forthtelling) or the foretelling of events through a direct communication from God.
- Background of Prophecy
- The primary function of an Old Testament prophet was as an reformer or revivalist, not a predictor.
- They were raised up by God in times of crisis to instruct, rebuke, warn, and comfort, etc.. (Hosea 6:1; 9:1; 14:1; cf Micah 2:1)
- Interwoven in this ethical preaching were predictions (Micah 5:2)
- The primary function of a New Testament prophet was also as an informer and instructor, not a predictor (1 Corinthians 14:3; edification, exhortation, consolation)
- The prophet spoke directly from God with an immediate revelation, like a repeater or quoter (cf Deuteronomy 18:18; Exodus 4:15-16; 7:1)
- The Effects and Limitations of Prophecy
- Foretelling usually did not contain truth sufficient for salvation (Cf Daniel 8, 9; Micah 5:2; Malachi 3:1)
- For salvation, predictive prophecy must have contained the true object of saving faith, which it seems it did not.
- Probably a person in the Old testament period was not saved by looking forward to the Messiah who was predicted to come.
- Forthtelling may have contained truth sufficient to save
- For salvation, didactive prophecy (forthtelling) must have included the proper object of saving faith
- "Repent and return to Jehovah", which was a major theme of the Minor Prophets, would be an example of this.
- Foretelling usually did not contain truth sufficient for salvation (Cf Daniel 8, 9; Micah 5:2; Malachi 3:1)
- The Historical and Contemporary Continuation of Prophecy
- We would not expect this form to usually occur today.
- There is no need for prophecy in cultures which have the Bible (2 Peter 1:19; 1 Corinthians 13:8-10)
- The primary function of an Old Testament prophet was as an reformer or revivalist, not a predictor.
- The Earthly Life of Jesus Christ 1. Statements of Scripture suggesting the life of Jesus constitutes "special" revelation Hebrews 1:1-3
In the past God spoke to our fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, and through whom he has made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word...
a. God spoke through his Son like he did through the prophets.
b. Christ is the "radiance of God's glory".
John 1:14, 18
The Word became flesh and lived for a while among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth... No man has ever seen God, but God the only Son, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. a. The glory of God was seen in Christ (cf. Psalm 19:1)
b. Christ explained what the Father was like.
2. Methods through which Jesus manifested special revelation a. Through what he said. (cf John 7:16-17)
b. Through what he did. (cf John 5:17,19) However, not all that Jesus did or said was revelatory. (E.g., John 4:6-7)
3. The Contents of special revelation through Jesus a. The existence of God
b. Plurality within the Godhead (Ie, Trinity)
c. The Nature and Character of God
d. The Wilol and Purposes of God (Eg, Matthew 13:24-25)
e. The Works of God
4. The Need and Purpose of this form of special revelation a. Christ's main area of revelation was (probably) the Will and Purposes of God
b. At this particular time Israel needed: - a message of repentance
- instruction about the kingdom
- a new object of saving faith
5. The Sufficiency and Effects of Jesus' special revelation a. Christ revelaed enough Truth to save a person, if believed. (see John 1:11-12; 3:16; 8:24)
b. He revealed enough Truth to condemn a person as well. (Eg, John 3:18, 36) - The Scriptures (as a source of special revelation) 1. Their Claims to be revelation a. Over 3800 times in the Old Testament are sttaements made claiming what is written is divine revelation (Eg, Leviticus 1:1-2; Isaiah 1:2; Hosea 1:1-2; Joel 1:1)
New Testament claims are far (far) fewer. (1 Corinthians 14:37; Revelation 1:1)
2. Their Content a. They contain statements about all other forms of revelation. 1. Each form might have been a revelation to a person at the time it occurred.
2. Some forms are also revelation for us as we read about them.
3. Some matters in the Bible are not technically revelatory, such as: - historical and geographical facts
- geneaologies
4. Each book of the Bbible as a whole was special revelation because of the way known and unknown truth was put together within it.
b. They interpret the other forms for us and therefore are not coordinate (in the same class) withthem. c. They are the broadest in scope of content than all other forms of revelation (even than Christ).
3. Arguments for their validation as revelation (From Thiessen, pp. 43-49) a. Their own self-claims 1. Many Old testament books claim to be God's Word.
2. If the Bible proves true in areas of science, history, geography, math, etc., we would tend to accept its witness to itself.
b. Their indestructibility 1. They have survived accusation against their truthfulness, authenticity and genuineness.
2. They have survived attacks against their physical existence.
c. Their fulfilled prophecy 1. About 20% of the Bible was predictive prophecy when written, and much has already been fulfilled.
2. Over 300 prophecies on the life and ministry of Christ alone have been fulfilled.
d. Their scientific and historical accuracy 1. No science or history book is without error.
2. Although not a science or history book, all of the biblical statements in these areas are proving true.
e. Their influence for goodness and justice 1. They have helped promote social, cultural, civil and humanitarian good as no other book has.
2. They have helped change countless lives morally.
f. Their contents ("The Bible is not a book that man would write if he could, nor could write if he would"- Chafer) 1. He would not write about: a. the origin, fact and extent of human sin
b. the plan of salvation by grace, not works
c. the high ethical standards
d. the Person of God: his holiness and oneness
2. He could not write about: a. the account of Creation
b. predictive prophecy that always comes to pass
c. the scope of contents from eternity past to eternity future
d. the harmony of diverse biblical themes
- Personal Experience (cf. Galatians 2:2)
Jarthur001
Active Member
Of course God Knews.Brother Bob said:
But please for the 1st time...stick to context.
Why did God choose one son over the other? Was it because of works? what does the context say? I don't care about the words you add. Context....what is context?
Do you see this statement anywhere in the text?
If you find it..let me know...and let me know what it means.
Baptist_Pastor/Theologian
New Member
Brother Bob said:
I am not worried about that... Do you agree with the Word of God... as you said you have nothing to fear from the Word and if your view is not in line you said you would adjust. Let me know how it works out for you....
saturneptune
New Member
BP/T,
Will you please answer a question that I have asked your friend Jarthur several times and he refuses to answer? In relation to Romans 10:18, if a person hears the Word from a preacher, missions, etc, will all that hear be saved?
Will you please answer a question that I have asked your friend Jarthur several times and he refuses to answer? In relation to Romans 10:18, if a person hears the Word from a preacher, missions, etc, will all that hear be saved?
saturneptune
New Member
Didnt ask you. And the only thing pathetic is your teaming up with Jarthur to demean others on this board. Busy, right on. No doubt.
Brother Bob
New Member
I was more worried about you for what you just pasted on this thread is NOT the word of God. That is why you are so mixed up. Had an Uncle did the same thing started getting all his information from the writings of others instead of the Scriptures and got all messed up and had to exclude him for false doctrine.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
I think we are all pretty close to the same views on Romans 10:18Brother Bob said:
Where we disagree is this...
The verses before this say we must go tell the world for they have not heard.
Dont shot me..that is what it says.
Again if you go to the missions field you would know this to be true.
So what does verse 18 prove? we..the point of the whole passage is that God uses tools to get His word out. How can the hear without a preacher? Have they not heard in the past? Yes..he goes on to state a few ways God has worked to get His message out.
So what is the point of 18? The point, just as God has reached out before...He is reaching out today in the Church age, but now He is using the church.
Why? Well..how will they hear without a preacher.
Does God NEED us? No!! But it is the main tool that He uses in the church age.
Why?
1)They have not heard...(no grace)
2) Holy Spirit Draws all men....
3)Holy Spirit lives in us.
4)Therefore we go because God tells us to go.
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saturneptune
New Member
James,
A very good post. I agree with what you said. Tell me, in verse 18, since you seem to know the culture of the day, dont you think Paul might have meant the whole world the known world at the time, which meant Israel was without excuse?
A very good post. I agree with what you said. Tell me, in verse 18, since you seem to know the culture of the day, dont you think Paul might have meant the whole world the known world at the time, which meant Israel was without excuse?
Jarthur001
Active Member
saturneptune said:
Hearing comes in 2 forms in the Word of God. Context always tells us what it means. In some places it means..just hearing with ears. Other places it means understanding.
Brother Bob
New Member
It means that Israel were God's chosen people. I don't know why, they were a very rebellious people but yet who am I to question God but yes, Israel was God's chosen people. But, for some reason God made a way for those who would accept Israel's God to become part of the "elect"
The "elect" to me is the church those with faith but we become a part of the "elect" through Grace and that is through "faith" In other words we must believe in order to become a part of the "elect". I hope this makes sense.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Glory be to God!!!
We are so SO SO close.. it is not funny. I never thought I would see this day Bob, where we get this close. You do give a good fight brother...I'll give you that.
That is the best post I have seen from your side on election. You have been open with this. I respect you more then ever before. I would say it stronger...but I'm glad we are close.
Only to show what I liked the most...i place words in bold.
The bold words is Gods grace. At 1st, I did not bold the word choosen for I thought it may seem i was picking it out. But choose is very much part of it..so I did bold it too.
Grace...Gods Grace. Nothing we have done...but by the grace of God I do not know why he choose me...but by grace...grace...grace
I just smiled.Brother Bob said:
We are so SO SO close.. it is not funny. I never thought I would see this day Bob, where we get this close. You do give a good fight brother...I'll give you that.That is the best post I have seen from your side on election. You have been open with this. I respect you more then ever before. I would say it stronger...but I'm glad we are close.
Only to show what I liked the most...i place words in bold.
The bold words is Gods grace. At 1st, I did not bold the word choosen for I thought it may seem i was picking it out. But choose is very much part of it..so I did bold it too.
Grace...Gods Grace. Nothing we have done...but by the grace of God I do not know why he choose me...but by grace...grace...grace
Brother Bob
New Member
I knew you would change it but thats alright James we
can't all be strong and not stand like you accused
satuneptune of not being strong enough to stand
But that still does not answer all these Scriptures now does it.
Hebrews, chapter 4
"1": Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
"2": For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
"3": For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Romans 10:
17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18: But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Acts 26:20-26 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
Colossians 1:4-6 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Have they not heard?
John, chapter 1
.
"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
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