Predestination: Meaning and Application

It seems to me He is saying....

1) Going by This statement..."God elects because He knows who will believe."
Then this means God also knows who will not.

2) God knows the very names of those that Believe.
God also knows the very names of those who do not believe.

3) God Knows at creation the elect
God Knew at creation the damned.

4) God made the elect.
God made the damn.


Why did God make the damn if He knew they would not believe?


One way or another it goes back to God.

One way we give God the glory for electing.
The other way we deny God the glory by saying He did not have control.

Both ways..God does it.

 

Okay, maybe we're seeing it pretty much the same way, then. I think you're simply looking at it as God's permissive will, which is the same way I see it, too. I dont' want to bicker about words, but it still means "planned". God knows how to communicate. If God wanted to communicate to us that He only permits sin, then surely He would have had Joseph say, "You meant it for evil, but God permitted it for good", or even "You meant it for evil, but God used it for good". But those two phrases would have communicated that God did not have complete control over the situation. He simply saw what might happen and approved of this and that.

I don't think it's an accident that the verse says "God meant it for good". I think that verse is worded specifically to communicate that God means things like this to happen according to His good purpose. This is the same as when God says that He works all things together (including the evil that people do) for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Is He using the evil? Yes. Is it because He permits it? Yes. But He couldn't work it together for good unless it happens -- which means God must also plan to permit it. I think that's what you're saying when you refer to His omniscience. But it is no less of a plan just because He PLANS to permit it.

 

Depends on the bases of what one considers His will.

This would depend on what God’s knowledge consists of within the truth of His nature as revealed in the Word.

How could good exist if there were nothing in comparison? If God had only created a world of one that creature could have easily been only good but I’m glad He did make Eve considering the alternative.

I think the truth is that God allowed evil to exist as a truth of the very nature that He created in a purpose for us to have been created in His likeness and image with a free will.

I would agree God does not violate free will, so I guess we have a major dilemma when simple math seems to not logically add up.

I think Bob has the right idea about the truth of God’s nature:
(Eze 33:11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

How confusing of a concept is that while being honest when the Word reveals God’s knowledge in the way it does.

I don’t think you’re an open theist. Although I’m not necessarily sure they all hold to not allowing foreknowledge or I should say at least in part theorizing a “dynamic omniscience”.

Bet you're a good chess player, eh?

 

If God chose to make man that way, He is Sovereign

 

I think you need to better define your terms. Even Calvinists wouldn't say God "authored" or "forced" sin, but some would take "planning" as the same meaning. It seems you two are debating about phrases you have yet to define making this discussion even more difficult.

Maybe you can't see how God can plan out His will without having to cause, create, make or in any other way determine man's sinful choices. I believe God is big enough to bring about his purposes without in anyway being associated with the cause of the sin used in bringing those purposes to pass, don't you?

You say "they did it of their own will," but once again you fail to define what you mean by "will." If you are like most compatiblists you believe that a choice to act is free if it is made based on what an agent desires to do, but an indeterminists believes a choice to act is free if it is an expression of an agent's categorical ability of the will to refrain or not refrain from the action (i.e., contra-causal freedom). That is the real point of contention here.

 

The difference between Calvinism and what I believe is that Man either chose good or he chose evil and God didn't do it for him.

Have all heared the Gospel?
What is the Gospel, its the Power of God unto Salvation.
Scripture says "go ye not from house to house saying know ye the Lord for they shall all know me from the least unto the greatest".

We are no longer under the Law and the natural "High Preist", but we have an angel flying in Heaven having the everylasting Gospel to preach to them that do dwell upon the earth, amen,

Do you think for one minute that God does not touch the heart of every man that has ever been born, even Jezebell.

 

Salvation is between man and God. I can't save anyone and neither can you.
Why? Does He say, I stand at the door and knock and if any man will hear my voice I will come in and sup with him and he with me.

You fail to give God credit for the power He actually does have. According to Calvinist, and I think that is what you profess to be, the "elect" is chosen by God before the world began so you have less meaning in the two legged preacher than I do.

There is a purpose in the preacher but it is not essential for Salvation. Don't you know that in the jungles of Africa and other places they know there is a higher being, they know not to take you brother's wife, they know not to steal. I know they don't do it all the time but something has taught these people something and even so before the coming of Christ the Scripture says their conscious is a law unto them. God is amazing when it comes to His creation. You know Adam ran and hid after he had sinned. It was something inside telling him he was in trouble. There is a Spirit in man the inspiration of God Almighty that teacheth him right from wrong. Also, The Grace of God which bringeth salvation hath appeared unto all men teaching them to deny ungodliness and worldly lust. I think it would have to teach man what those things were in order to teach him not to do them don't you? You don't believe man is just turned free without a conscious do you?

The conscious worked in olden times why not now?

 

Bob, I will try and rephrase the issue in different ways, I know I and several others have had trouble getting this point across and it seems as if progress may have been made in this thread in this regard….. the question for you and all Arminians (or just plain `ole Bible believing Christians or whatever you want to call yourself) is simple:

Does God know the future exhaustively (EF) or not?

Put simply, the EF view says (and the majority of all Christians has always said), that God perfectly knew all that would ever happen in this world before it was ever created, every last detail of it….. thus, if God knows ever single detail of what would ever happen, among those “details” God also knew who would place their trust in Him for salvation before the foundation of the world, before any one or anything was ever created......

Further, since (if) God is omniscient, EF or not, He would also know what sets of circumstances would need to entail in order for any one single person to place their faith in Him for salvation. So a person's salvation has to always be traced back to the will of God. And since He is also omnipotent, He could bring/have brought the set of circumstances necessary for any one single individual to believe to pass, if He so willed. Yet, as we see, God has apparently decided to create a world where some will be saved and others will not. So apparently in one sense God wills the salvation of all, yet, in another sense, He must not, because if He really "willed" something to happen, it would in fact happen. The only way around this is to say that something in the universe can thwart God's ultimate will.

(to the Open Theists: God must also be “clever” enough to do this without violating their free will).

Historically both Calvinists and classic Arminianism have affirmed EF.... and if this is the case concerning the extent of God's knowledge, then manifestly it is also the case that God allows human beings to come into existence that He knew full well would never believe, IOW, even though He knew they would suffer an eternity in hell.

If indeed God has EF and all of the events that would ever take place are known to God, that if all of reality is “fixed” or “settled”, Open Theists say that man cannot be free. For instance, if God knew from all of eternity that I would be writing this post right now, then how could I have ever been free to either write this post or not write it? It seems, according to Open Theists anyway, that I must not be free if God knew in the EF sense that I would be writing this post right now.

Much more seriously then the issue of writing this post, God also knew from before all creation that I would exist and whether or not I (or anyone else) would savingly believe. Since I have placed my faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone for my salvation, and God knew this from before the foundation of the world, how could I have ever been free to have done otherwise?

Open Theists answer these sorts of questions by saying that in order to preserve (libertarian) free will, (which is, according to them a priori, the only definition of free will that they will allow), God must not…. cannot…. know what the future holds in every detail, and, most importantly, He cannot know specifically who would ever place their faith in Him. As a matter of fact,if the Open Theist view is correct, the number of things God does nto know is incredibly high, for how many outcomes are the result of what humans do with their "free will"? And really, what is the most important aspect of this creation? It's the relationship between God and man. Yet if God does not know the details of this interaction until after it occurs, it is easy to see that God is ignorant of a great many things, and all the most important things.

As an aside, if God did/does not possess EF, it must also be the case that it was possible that no one would have ever believed savingly, ie Christ’s death on the Cross would not have ever actually saved anyone. Thus JI Packer quipped “Christ died for everyone in general and no one in particular.” Sad.

Anyways…. So Bob, the question is this: If it is the case that from all eternity God knew (EF) that I would write this post at exactly this time, could I have ever done otherwise? Please answer yes or no.

So too, if it is the case that God knew from all eternity that I would place my faith in Him for salvation, could I have ever done otherwise? Please answer yes or no.

Now, ask the same question of yourself, did God know from before the foundation of the world that you would be saved? If so, then was it possible for you to have not ever believed savingly? Yes or no.....

(Remember now, in the ordinary course of events, of course faith needs to be exercised, individuals must believe, no one is denying that, and that is not the issue here Bob. Try and limit the discussion just to what it is that God knows or doesn’t know.)

I (and Open Theists) believe that Classic Arminianism is wrong/logically inconsistent in saying that "God looks into the future and sees who will believe, and based on that knowledge, that is who He elects". God, if He has EF, does not need to "look into the future" as if He is some crystal ball gazer, if EF is true God has always known the future exhaustively and perfectly in every detail. Arminianism tries to have their cake and eat it too by trying to affirm EF and yet that man is free in the libertarian sense. If EF is true, then the specific individuals who would eventually make up the company of heaven was settled prior to creation. God would have always known exactly who would and who would not be saved. If EF is true, then some type of determinism in regard to predestination must follow. The only way around this is to deny EF.

If God does not know the future EF, you will have to close rank and agree with the Open Theists and say that God has voluntarily limited His omniscience to only include the present and past (though supposedly God does know some things He will do no matter what) due to His wanting to have a creation with individuals with (libertarian) free will. Thus, He decided to not know the future exhaustively and He has to wait and see what His creatures will do as far as their salvation is concerned, He never knows who will be saved until they are saved. This view maintains that God is really surprised at what actually happens and even that He is mistaken at times.

In the end Bob (and for everyone else), your/our options are really just 2, either God knows the future perfectly EF, or He does not. What do you say? Which one is true?

So once again:

Does God know the future exhaustively or not? How you answer this question will lead to what you must believe about predestination.

blessings

 

Ken,
Hope that is the right name. Agree with your post except for one point. Asking the question "does God know the future?" is kind of a mute point since God is outside time. The future is His creation, so not sure He looks at it in that context. However, God of course knows all that there is or ever will be, since He created it all.

Good ole Jarthur,
See you managed to get another thread closed. Have you ever considered going over to the Arminian side?

 

Let me try to take these one at a time. I don't like long posts for you lose your sense of what is being said.
My belief is not that God knew before anything existed that you would write this post. My veiw is that God sees all at once with out the restraints of time and sees you write it before the foundation of the world, He sees you write it now, He even sees you write it in the end of time for He is all in all and looks and sees all. You keep getting hung up on me believing that God looks forward in time and sees these things but that is not my belief. I believe He just looks and sees you do it without the restraints of time. Do you understand what I am saying or not?

I saw this and will try to answer it also and then go back and look at the rest of your post.
Does God know the future. The future is for man and when God interacts with man then the future means something to Him but God sees all at once. There is no future when he is "timeless". All he has to do is see. That is why when you ask your question of predestination you are looking at the answer now. I hope I am clear for some say I am being dishonest and my life is serving the Lord and if I did something dishonest I would cry all night long to the Lord to forgive me. My whole being is for the Lord. He has brought me through 2 open heart surgeries, 2 corotery surgeries, double hyneria surgeries. I been cut all too pieces and still praise my Lord for what I have left so please don’t accuse me of being dishonest for it hurts me to the core. Bless,raying:

Yes, God knows all. He is everlasting to everlasting.

 

Epistemanic,

I affirm EF but deny Calvinistic doctrine and the compatabilistic (soft deterministic) views you have expressed for a number of reasons.

First, your logic is flawed. You have taken two independent truths that we know about God (that he foreknows all choices and that he has created all matter) and have used your own finite logic to draw a conclusion that scripture itself never draws about an infinite matter.

Our human understanding of what is logical does not necessarily define, prove or validate infinite matters. For example, there are many mysterious concepts in scripture which stir up questions about how God deals with men within time and space (i.e. Immanence) yet exists separate from and not limited by time and space (i.e. Transcendence).

Can we draw concrete logical conclusions about how an infinite God governs a finite world? I ask because when doing so I notice how your logical contructs uses words which necessitate sequencing of events or thoughts and thus imply causality. But can we really sequence the infinite? How do you put a linear, causal order to a timeless concept?

For example, you have argued that if God foreknows something "PRIOR" to creating it then He must have determined it do be. But this logic is based upon sequencing God's knowing, God's determinations and God's act of creating thus attempting to remove the mysterious nature of infinite transcendent realm. Can we really draw hard conclusions based upon our linear way of thinking? Aren't there some things that must be left to mystery?

Second, what point is there in scripture revealing God's simple foreknowledge of an event if in fact God has actually determined that event?

Your arguments seem to assume that God's simple foreknowledge of an event is equal to his determiniation of it, and if that is so why would scripture bother even speaking of God's simple foreknowledge of such things? If you were writing a report in the newspaper about a car accident and you knew that someone had determined to cause that accident prior to its happening wouldn't you report it as being "determined" by that individual and not merely "foreknown" by him? Knowing something is going to happen before it happens is much different from determining something to happen before it happens, so why would an author of scripture reveal that God has done the former while believing that the latter was actually the case? If the scripture wanted us to believe God has determined all things rather than merely knowing all things then I believe it would have said so plain and simple. The fact that God is revealed has having simple EF proves that EF of a choice or event is possible without ED (eternal determiniation) of that choice or event. Make sense?

 

Those who live by the Law shall perish by the Law if they perish. The same is true of the conscious.
Of course if people have what we do then they need to hear the Gospel but there are places where if they were trying to get somewhere to hear the Gospel they would be put to death. I truly believe that God is able to reach anyone He wants. I used to wrestle with the question of no preachers in the jungles but now I leave it in the hands of God and try to reach the ones I can. I think when the Bible says Judge not lest ye be judge and another, who art thou oh man that judge another man's servant tells me I can't judge anyone worthy or unworthy of eternal life. I can judge the fruits but can't see the inside and know for sure why the fruits are what they are but I know someone who can.

I always try to remember "who am I?"

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. Don't belong to me.

 

Makes good sense to me Skandelon;

 

?? What is the meaning of this post?

The 1st of its kind on this thread​

 

The Calvinist view wants to trace back a person’s salvation to the will of God while thwarting His Word of His will when He declares that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So what does one conclude that God created something against His Own will; I think not, He allowed it just as He allowed free will. The order of predestination comes after foreknowledge as written in the Word, to change the order is a false doctrine.

Always wanting a yes or no attempting to put God in a theoretical box of EF while still declaring compatibility with free will and at the same time hypocritically trying to brand others as Open theist for maintaining free will. Nothing but rhetoric!

Calvinists want to limit options using EF not realizing the options they have put on their selves that they then must deny God’s true nature, contend with the POE, disregard God’s instructions pertaining to the Gospel, and distort creation as God designed it all for the sake of proclaiming a false doctrine with a thwarted view of predestination.

Part of God’s creation was time which is a tool for Him to interact with His creatures; time does exist as a truth of His creation. Yes, finite logic fails against the truths in God’s Word and it is hard for some to admit that.

The understanding of time pertaining to God is beyond man’s comprehension yet we are being told to try to limit the discussion to what God knows. GIVE ME A BREAK!