Predestination: Meaning and Application

Grace and Peace,

Awesome, I appreciate the opportunity to work out a few theories with you.

Okay, first I agree with your point concerning time being a 'thing' within the context of your definition. It is true I was speaking particularly about creation (i.e. material creation) and thus giving 'thing-ness' the characteristics of object-ness.

With regards to time and it being a part of understanding nature, again I agree Creation by it's very nature is not Eternal and thus change and through it the ability to measure it (i.e. time) is an inherent attribute but I don't believe it is a necessary component in understanding God or His Foreknowledge of all things (Omniscience) in which I believe we both agree.

It is true that everything God knows must occur according to his will. If it did not, then God would be wrong in what he knew. For an omniscient Mind cannot be wrong in what it knows. However, it does not follow from this that all events are determined (i.e. caused by God). God could simply determine that we be self-determining beings in a moral sense. The fact that He knows for certain what free creatures will do with their freedom is enough to make the event determined. But the fact that God does not force them to choose, is enough to establish that human free acts are not determined (caused) by another but by oneself. God determined the fact of human freedom, but free creatures perform the acts of human freedom.

If such is not the case if God is the cause of all human actions, then human beings are not morally responsible. One is only responsible for a choice if there was free will to avoid making it. All responsibility implies the ability to respond, either on one's own or by God's grace. Ought implies can. But if God caused the action, then we could not have avoided it. Hence, we are not responsible.

Well I'm glad you admit it as only a hypothesis because although you suggest your thesis allows for free exercise of human will if you assume God's Foreknowledge is molested by said will I don't honestly see any moral responsibility for evil outside of God Himself as not only the secondary cause which is a given in most theistic theories but in fact the primary one in yours.

I find this morally unacceptable for a 'Good' God and more in line with the Gnostic Demiurge.

Could you address my concerns and perhaps illuminate if I am understand you incorrectly.

Peace.

 

Are you suggesting that some of us need to be paper trained?

 

For what it's worth, I took it as a joke, and I would have laughed even if it was my picture and you said the same thing to me. However, for the record, regardless of what his picture looks like, I seriously think he should take an anger management class, and that is not a joke. I don't know if hypertension is the cause or will be the effect, but the kind of outbursts I see here sure look like hypertension and emotional issues to me. I know he'll take that as an insult, but it is honest concern, based on the fact that I had hypertension problems from being overweight, and I know how that affected my mood and behavior. And there's always the reverse, too -- anger can cause hypertension, which just makes anger harder to control.

 

If you notice I never say anything to anyone except when joking until they first attack me. I don't take kindly to being attacked and neither do you Npet;
You are a lot like me whether you admit it or not for no one and I mean no one can say something negative to you without you attacking with all you got the same as me. So, if I need some medication then so do you and if you do not believe it go back and look at your posts. I think you are very intelligent but like me you get really involved. I don't call that "losing it" but maybe some do. It is my way of defending my position on any given subject. I do not personally attack (with the exception of joking) unless first attacked and for some odd reason it has always been a Calvinist. Maybe you can explain that part. We have been kinda close and then we go for the throats. You and I.
This entire thread went peacefully until BP/T began to talk about my picture being a picture of hate and I needed the net. Then it blew and you know that is the truth and if you don't then go back and read the thread. This guy is into unprogramming and then reporgramming. You think that don't scare me. Sounds like someone else I saw on the news about 20 or 30 years ago.
Npet; I would much rather be your friend than your enemy. If you attack me then I will respond in kind. If you show respect then I will likewise to the same. peace

I will make you a pact. You go take a anger management class and I will too. You deal with weight. I deal with trying to live with only half my heart left. You don't know me and could never judge me until you walk a mile in my shoes. As I said, you are just as quick to jump as I have ever been. Kindness has been something hard to find in you.

Also, my responses has always been in response to others like yourself. You all can not get me to accept your beliefs and cannot overcome the Scriptures I put to you so you attack. You say you don't see nothing wrong with him making fun of my avatar but it was done for other reasons and you know it, but he didn't stop there, he went on to "get the net" and I will not post them again but said way too much. Again, read the thread and see if it was not peaceful until he started with the remarks. Now just for your knowledge, I have always been just the way I am now and I suspect you have too.

 

I'm sorry, Bob, but God forbid.

 

I am talking about responding on here and the posts speak for themselves.

I guess I am supposed to take this as a favor. Gee thanks,

 

I was thinking Bob’s picture looked a bit like Jack Nicholson.

 

Thanks Benjamin;

Isn't this something that this thread has demeaned to my picture and because they had no answer for not using the whole chapter of Paul and I pointed it out to them they attacked my picture. I put my dog up so they can't get to him. After the attack, I responded so I need a anger management class. lol

Its the old saying, if you don't like the message then kill the messenger and tell the world he was angry.

Just for the record npet;
please show my losing it and be sure to give the context and if you were in it. Please post where it is so I can go see why it happened. Most of all please show if I sinned for the Lord said to get angry but sin not.

 

I don't think I need an anger management class, Bob. And believe me, you haven't got the foggiest clue what I've been through, and what I live with daily. I won't burden you with the details, but if stress and heartache always led to temper and physical problems, I'd be long dead by now.

I can't walk a mile in your shoes, though, either. I did have a father with only half a heart left. He passed away earlier this year after about 2 years of not being able to recognize me anymore because his weak heart didn't get enough oxygen to his brain and the result was vascular dementia. He only had half a heart (or less for all I know) because he had a massive heart attack several years ago. Now, my father, I know he sure had major league anger management issues since I was old enough to recognize them. And although I'll never know for sure, I'd bet anything that his anger is what led to both his lengthy battle with hypertension issues (he was thin) and his heart attack. If you're like anyone, you're like my dad. Not only did he fly off the handle, you couldn't tell him a thing. I really miss him, despite the way he was, though. So I'm not saying we can't be friends. But I'm nothing like you.

 

Wonder if you are anything like your Dad? Seems to me with your knowledge you would show more kindness than the rest but I guess not. I don't need a anger management class either. Do I get anger, you bet. You talk down to me, you talk about me or family I might add, you especially make fun of me you got your hands full. If you talk to me you probably got a friend. I walk miles for someone in need. I give until it hurts for people in need. I have served for Pastor for 25 years and ordained minister for 34. I see to all my churchs needs and members so for someone on BB like yourself or another to attack me because I don't believe as you do then I respond. I always have and too old to change now. People either accept me for what I am or leave me alone and I certainly will leave them alone. I have preached 2 funerals this past week, I preach at least one a week and sometimes more. Not just my denomination but several call me to take care of their love ones so that don't sound like a anger management case does it. You judge me wrongly because of how I respond to being attacked on BB. Well, you attack, I will respond. If someone came in my yard and attacked me I would run them off in a hurry. I would not say "son come in for a while". I would put them off my land. Too many people playing the hypocrit and getting people in the church for the wrong reasons. We are here to serve the Lord and that means being able to do the hard part as well as the easy. Everyone cannot lead a church. They are not able to stand up when standing is necessary so the church goes the way of the wind. Yes, I am a very strong willed man and give my life to working for the Lord. Don't read this and say I forgot love and kindness for if you knew me you would know better. peace

 

Whatever, Bob. I'm not going to get into a contest with you on how hard my life has been or how great I am. I think, instead, it's time to go back to making good on my decision not to respond to your posts anymore.

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Very well npet;, but work on the kindness thing ok, but I guess that is the love of God.:flower:

 

Please take care of yourself and leave me alone for you started this discussion, not I.

 

I'm sorry if this takes the thread off topic, but I can't help but respond to this. It is this very concept "the world is less than ideal due to sin" that C. S. Lewis used to show that atheism makes no sense. I loved his reasoning on this, especially because I used to think the same way when I was an atheist. He pointed out that, if the chaotic mess of sin is all there is, then we should never know that it's a chaotic mess, since we're part of it. We should have no knowledge that it's just a chaotic mess of sin, since we would have nothing against which to measure the state of the world to know that it's wrong. It would be as if we lived in a universe with no light. We wouldn't know it's dark, because there's no light against which to compare the darkness.

Lewis was a hard-core free willer who used some of the same incorrect arguments I see here (robots, etc.), so I don't agree with everything he taught. But he was a master at communicating truth to self-deluded pseudo-intellectuals (of which I was once one) with his apologetics style.

P.S. I really enjoy your posts.

 

C'mon guys, leave Bob's picture alone! Hey, who drew that funny looking beard on it??

Seriously though, goading humor doesn't work well here, I know, I've tried it. If we were all face to face, and we could here the vocal inflections, we would probably be enjoying the goading amongst ourselves instead of getting angry.

Brother Bob, although I can't understand your postings most of the time, and I think you're not intersted in an open exchange of thoughts, nevertheless, I still respect you and if I needed someone to come to my side in a fight to the death, I would want it to be you. But remember this, contrary to what you may have been told, it's really okay to be wrong about something sometimes, to be corrected, to re-think your position, and then come out fighting even stronger than before.

 

Thanks

J. D.;
I thank you for your advise. I see you have laid this all at my door step and that is what I do not understand about the Calvinist, unless you take up for each other regardless of the truth. I have never wanted any trouble and can take a joke as well as anyone but He was not joking. He was using my avatar as a way to get back at me because he couldn't explain why Paul went on to say the Gospel had went into all the world of which he had not answer so he attacked me personally. You don't really think I care if someone makes fun of my picture do you? Its when they do it in meanness that I care. When one Calvinist disagrees with me then here come several and join in the attack and that is wrong. Almost every fight if you will look at the posts were not started by me. I admit I fight strong when attacked. I maybe need to leave BB for I do not like what is happening such as being call a liar, hypocrit the worst ever been seen, cherry picker, nut case you name it all in the name of Christianty. I been a Christian too long to know that is not Christianty but meanness and meanness comes from the devil. I am plain here for its time to be plain. If I leave I don't want anyone to think I left because of Scriptures but left because of the unchristian attacks.
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I take out of this that you think I will not accept it when I am wrong. If you would please give me an instance I will gladly respond with Scripture but because my take on the Scripture does not agree with yours does not give you a right to say then "bro bob is angry" for I am not. I am simply stating my case. No one on here has convinced me of the Calvinist doctrine as of yet. I strongly believe Salvation is to all that will believe. I feel so sorry inside that we can’t communicate without me being the dog. I am never jumped on because of Scripture but because I give a different take on the Scripture than the Calvinist and the argument starts with me being called "too angry" because I post fast and answer plainly. I believe what is truth is to tell what you really believe and not be political correct. I would give anything if we could be friend but I guess its not to be, for I will never be a Calvinist. I even think its wrong to call yourself a Calvinist. It has gone too far and God is hardly ever mentioned anymore. Makes me afraid for this kind of discussion. I guess I am saying too much and none have accepted what I have said before and I don’t expect you to now. Thanks again for trying, maybe someday we will truly be friends. God Bless,

 

Brother Bob, if we were not focused on our doctrinal differences, we could be close friends. I mean it, I'm not just trying to play nice. I like people such as yourself. I can't stand limp-wristedness. I would rather somebody fight me over what they believe than to pretend it doesn't matter. I just don't want you to have a stroke. You said that you don't get mad, but with all the red font and stuff like that, it sure looks like you're about to blow a gasket.