Predestination:

[MennoSota]

I am saying nothing. Paul very clearly says, "neither having done any good or evil". So, by "evil" we must understand "sin" Both passages say that there is a time, only known to God, that babies, do not sin before they actually commit sin. You are assuming that David's child was "elect"? Based on what?

I am saying that David declared he would see his child again after David died.

2 Samuel 12:23
"But now that the baby is dead, why should I fast? I can't bring him back to life. Someday I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me."

 

[MennoSota]

Let's look at the two verses @AndyMartin.

Isaiah 7:15-16

He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.

Does this say the child is born sinless?

Romans 9:11

Yet before the Twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God's plan of election might stand, not by works, but by Him who calls...

What in the verse says the children were sinless?

 

[Yeshua1]

No.

What I am saying is that Adam, Jesus, JonC and Yesua1 all have the freedom to choose and all have a human nature. None of these people were forced to sin by their created nature yet all but one of them chose to sin of their own accord. I am saying that Jesus really did become human.

Jesus nature was same as Adam had, perfect humanity, while we are all sinners by both nature and choice!

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't know who has claimed what. You asked me about what I believed and I gave you the best answer that I could.

As I said, we are sinners because we sin - there is no such thing as a sinless sinner. We sin because our desires are turned towards the flesh rather than to God.

Here's an illustration: Do we love God because we are saved or are we saved because we love God?

We sin because we have all inherited form the fall sin natures, as God judged all after Adam to be now spiritual dead in Him!

 

[JonC]

We sin because we have all inherited form the fall sin natures, as God judged all after Adam to be now spiritual dead in Him!

Again, verse please. Until then I will stick to the idea we sin when temptation takes root in our desires. I'm more comfortable with that view because I can back it up with Scripture.

 

[JonC]

Jesus nature was same as Adam had, perfect humanity, while we are all sinners by both nature and choice!

Jesus became man to redeem man.

 

[AndyMartin]

Let's look at the two verses @AndyMartin.

Isaiah 7:15-16


Does this say the child is born sinless?

Romans 9:11


What in the verse says the children were sinless?

what does this mean?

"before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and good"

"neither having done any good or evil"

"done", from "πράσσω" denoting "to perform", which means that there was a time prior to them "committing" evil/sin.

This is what Scripture says. show me another interpretation.

 

[MennoSota]

what does this mean?

"before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and good"

"neither having done any good or evil"

"done", from "πράσσω" denoting "to perform", which means that there was a time prior to them "committing" evil/sin.

This is what Scripture says. show me another interpretation.

They hadn't done anything.

That does not equal...they are sinless.

How do you respond to Psalm 51:5?

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

 

[AndyMartin]

They hadn't done anything.

That does not equal...they are sinless.

How do you respond to Psalm 51:5?

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Are you saying that infants that die, will go to hell? Then what of David's words about his child that died in infancy? I think that we are entering the unknown here. While it is true that every child born in this world, will, at some time, commit actual sin, can they be condemned for having a "sinful nature", but not actually having sinned? BTW, I don't know myself the answers, and this is very deep stuff!

 

[TCassidy]

As I said, we are sinners because we sin - there is no such thing as a sinless sinner.

So David was wrong when he said that he was in sin from the moment of his conception?

Do we love God because we are saved or are we saved because we love God?

We love God because He saved us. Prior to that we hated Him and considered Him to be our enemy.

Now, back to the question. You seem to beat around the bush and try to redefine what it means to be a sinner.

A sinner is a person prone to sin. He is bent toward sin. If every person is not prone to sin, IE a sinner, then why does the bible tell us so often that is the case?

I can't help but notice you avoided my illustration regarding my dog. Here, allow me to answer it for you. My dog barks because he is a dog. That is what dogs do. Even a puppy who has not yet learned to bark is still a dog.

 

[JonC]

I think that we are entering the unknown here. While it is true that every child born in this world, will, at some time, commit actual sin, can they be condemned for having a "sinful nature", but not actually having sinned? BTW, I don't know myself the answers, and this is very deep stuff!

Insofar as the consequence of sin, I believe so. But this is death. I think the issue is when we over-spiritualize things in such a way that Jesus could not have truly been human and infants are guilty of transgressing God's commands.

 

[AndyMartin]

So David was wrong when he said that he was in sin from the moment of his conception?

We love God because He saved us. Prior to that we hated Him and considered Him to be our enemy.

Now, back to the question. You seem to beat around the bush and try to redefine what it means to be a sinner.

A sinner is a person prone to sin. He is bent toward sin. If every person is not prone to sin, IE a sinner, then why does the bible tell us so often that is the case?

I can't help but notice you avoided my illustration regarding my dog. Here, allow me to answer it for you. My dog barks because he is a dog. That is what dogs do. Even a puppy who has not yet learned to bark is still a dog.

You say, "A sinner is a person prone to sin. He is bent toward sin". is this also true for babies of a month old, for example?

According to Websters 1828 dictionary, as "sinner" is , "One that has voluntarily violated the divine law; a moral agent who has voluntarily disobeyed any divine precept, or neglected any known duty". Can a baby be defined here?

 

[AndyMartin]

Insofar as the consequence of sin, I believe so. But this is death. I think the issue is when we over-spiritualize things in such a way that Jesus could not have truly been human and infants are guilty of transgressing God's commands.

Romans 5:12, "because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin". This says that because Adam sinned, he died spiritually, and then physically. And this, that is both "spiritual and physical death", passed onto the whole of mankind, when we sin. But, surely we have to "commit" sin, before we are "sinners", or has the word "sinner" a different meaning in the Bible? The English language says that "a sinner is one who commits a sin"

 

[TCassidy]

You say, "A sinner is a person prone to sin. He is bent toward sin". is this also true for babies of a month old, for example?

Yes. Babies are sinners. David makes that clear. He said he was in sin from the moment of his conception.

According to Websters 1828 dictionary, as "sinner" is , "One that has voluntarily violated the divine law; a moral agent who has voluntarily disobeyed any divine precept, or neglected any known duty". Can a baby be defined here?

I don't get my theology from secular dictionaries.

The bible works much better. Psalm 51:5 has already been quoted.

Add to that Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Do babies have flesh? Of course. Is the flesh bent away from God? Yes.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Note that Christ came not only "for sin" but for "sinful flesh."

Every person with flesh is bent away from God and toward sin.

 

[AndyMartin]

"Most Calvinistic theologians have held that those who die in infancy are saved. The Scriptures seem to teach plainly enough that the children of believers are saved; but they are silent or practically so in regard to those of the heathens. The Westminster Confession does not pass judgment on the children of heathens who die before coming to years of accountability. Where the Scriptures are silent, the Confession, too, preserves silence. Our outstanding theologians, however, mindful of the fact that God's "tender mercies are over all His works," and depending on His mercy widened as broadly as possible, have entertained a charitable hope that since these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves, their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved on wholly evangelical principles.

Such, for instance, was the position held by Charles Hodge, W. G. T. Shedd, and B. B. Warfield. Concerning those who die in infancy, Dr. Warfield says: "Their destiny is determined irrespective of their choice, by an unconditional decree of God, suspended for its execution on no act"

(from The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, by Loraine Boettner)

Calvinism Soteriology Topics

 

[MennoSota]

Are you saying that infants that die, will go to hell? Then what of David's words about his child that died in infancy? I think that we are entering the unknown here. While it is true that every child born in this world, will, at some time, commit actual sin, can they be condemned for having a "sinful nature", but not actually having sinned? BTW, I don't know myself the answers, and this is very deep stuff!

I believe in God's grace, which is what David believed in as well.

 

[AndyMartin]

I believe in God's grace, which is what David believed in as well.

What do you make of the words above of Boettner, a Calvinist?

 

[MennoSota]

What do you make of the words above of Boettner, a Calvinist?

Grace...that's what I said...and that's what the commentator you quoted says. What are you struggling with?

 

[JonC]

Romans 5:12, "because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin". This says that because Adam sinned, he died spiritually, and then physically. And this, that is both "spiritual and physical death", passed onto the whole of mankind, when we sin. But, surely we have to "commit" sin, before we are "sinners", or has the word "sinner" a different meaning in the Bible? The English language says that "a sinner is one who commits a sin"

I think it is obvious that death has spread to all man (otherwise the fate of infants would not be in question). So there is one sense whereby we have all sinned (we are all “sinners”) as we are children of Adam and under the curse of sin which entered the world at his transgression. It is a huge leap (biblically….probably not as much theologically) to go from there to the idea that we have a different nature than did Adam and that Jesus became man to redeem man….just not man like we are man.

I disagree that Romans 5:12 affirms the passing (directly) of both spiritual and physical death as an inheritance. The reason is that Paul, in this passage, is emphasizing the spread of death through sin apart from the Law (that before the Law sin existed in the world). Adam transgressed God’s command. Those under the Law transgressed God’s command. But death has reigned even to those who not sinned in the likeness of Adam. Adam is, in fact, a type of Him who was to come.

My argument is not that mankind is absent the desires of the flesh that, if surrendered to temptation, results in disobedience (sin). I believe this is true of all of us. My argument is that this was also true of Adam (as evidenced by the fact that he desired the fruit which was forbidden prior to eating of the Tree) and of Christ (as evidenced by the fact that although tempted He remained in perfect obedience).

The idea that we are born with a sin nature (depending on how it is defined)….that we sin just as a dog barks – because God made us this way – is a false teaching that minimizes human responsibility in sin. Instead we are born with a human nature, and we have human desires. We know of good and evil (this is evident through nature, through the work of the Spirit, through our own consciences) and we choose evil.

 

[JonC]

So David was wrong when he said that he was in sin from the moment of his conception?

No. We are born in sin and into sin.

Now, back to the question. You seem to beat around the bush and try to redefine what it means to be a sinner.

No, I have not been beating around the bush at all trying to redefine what it means to be a sinner. I thought I was very clear, but I’ll restate here:

We sin when we are carried away by our own desires, the lusts of the flesh. It is a matter of the will. Adam did not submit to the will of God (he desired what was forbidden and was carried away by this desire when tempted…and disobeyed God). Jesus was tempted as we are (Satan tempted Jesus to satisfy the desires of the flesh….e.g., to break His period of fasting and satisfy His hunger) yet Jesus did not sin.

What I am questioning is not that we are born into iniquity, or that we have desires that are not in accordance with God’s will. Jesus struggled with these desires also (in the Garden He prayed that the cup pass, yet the will of the Father be done). I am questioning the idea that Adam and Jesus had natures that were foreign to mankind. If you have a passage that affirms this idea then I will consider it.

I can't help but notice you avoided my illustration regarding my dog. Here, allow me to answer it for you. My dog barks because he is a dog. That is what dogs do. Even a puppy who has not yet learned to bark is still a dog.

Yes, the dog cannot help but to bark because this is what God has created the dog to do. I disagree because while I do think that our sin falls within God’s providence I do not believe that we are created to sin. Unlike the dog, which has no moral guilt over barking regardless as to the desires of his master, man is morally guilty and responsible for his sin because man – not God – authored sin.