Predestination:

[AndyMartin]

Grace...that's what I said...and that's what the commentator you quoted says. What are you struggling with?

If this is right, "infants have never committed any actual sin themselves, their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved on wholly evangelical principles", then you cannot have "election" as well, as they contradict each other!

 

[MennoSota]

If this is right, "infants have never committed any actual sin themselves, their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved on wholly evangelical principles", then you cannot have "election" as well, as they contradict each other!

Grace and election are hand in glove.

God extends grace by his choice.

What is so hard for you to understand.

 

[TCassidy]

because man – not God – authored sin.

Have I ever said anything else? Why the smoke screen?

Another illustration. I am an American citizen. What did I do to become an American citizen? Nothing. It is a fact of my birth (both Jus Soli and Jus Sanguinis). I am my mother's son. I have US citizenship due to my descent from her. When I grew up I voted. That is what a citizen does.

I am a sinner. What did I do to become a sinner? Nothing. It is a fact of my birth. I am descended from Adam. When I matured I sinned. That is what a sinner does.

 

[TCassidy]

The idea that we are born with a sin nature (depending on how it is defined)….that we sin just as a dog barks – because God made us this way – is a false teaching that minimizes human responsibility in sin.

And who in this thread has said that?

 

[JonC]

Have I ever said anything else? Why the smoke screen?

Another illustration. I am an American citizen. What did I do to become an American citizen? Nothing. It is a fact of my birth (both Jus Soli and Jus Sanguinis). I am my mother's son. I have US citizenship due to my descent from her. When I grew up I voted. That is what a citizen does.

I am a sinner. What did I do to become a sinner? Nothing. It is a fact of my birth. I am descended from Adam. When I matured I sinned. That is what a sinner does.

You had me at the dog barking illustration (illustrations are limited, so I'd prefer to just stick with Scripture and go from there....even if we end up not agreeing).

Do you believe that Jesus had a human nature (as we have a human nature)?

 

[JonC]

And who in this thread has said that?

I don't know if anyone said that. I am saying it to illustrate my view. A sinner does not sin because he was created to do so (because God created him a sinner). A sinner sins when carried away by his own desire. The problem is, perhaps, the desire but this is not always wrong (it was not with Jesus when he desired food....except it would have been a sin had he turned the stone to bread (He went into the wilderness to be tempted in submission to the will of the Father, not to bail when He got hungry). The issue is not a different nature but our will. We do what is wrong. We disobey. But that does not mean we are different creatures than was Adam.

 

[TCassidy]

A sinner does not sin because he was created to do so (because God created him a sinner).

That is just a smoke screen. Neither I nor anyone else has blamed God for mankind being sinners. We all died in Adam. Not in God!

A sinner sins when carried away by his own desire.

Exactly. A person who is ALREADY a sinner sins when carried away by his own lusts. But it is good to see that you now acknowledge the sinner was a sinner before he sinned.

 

[JonC]

That is just a smoke screen. Neither I nor anyone else has blamed God for mankind being sinners. We all died in Adam. Not in God!

No, it's not a smoke screen at all. I believe that you are saying men are sinners from conception (from the way you handled the "conceived in iniquity" verse) and are dodging the issue about how they become this way. For clarification - Does God create men as sinners or is there a point in time when they become sinners?

Exactly. A person who is ALREADY a sinner sins when carried away by his own lusts. But it is good to see that you now acknowledge the sinner was a sinner before he sinned.

I have said repeatedly that sins are manifestations of our sinfulness. I still stand behind that position. Here, however, we are dealing with the idea that Jesus and Adam have one human nature and the rest of mankind another. This is how "sin nature" was dealt with by Y1 just a few posts ago. The issue is not our created nature but what we do with that nature. It is a matter of our wills - of indulging our desires rather than obeying God.

 

[TCassidy]

Do you believe that Jesus had a human nature (as we have a human nature)?

He had an unfallen human nature due to his not being "in Adam." That is the purpose of the virgin birth.

We, on the other hand, are "in Adam" and have a fallen human nature.

But the human nature in both are fully human.

Another illustration (regardless how much you abhor them).

My neighbor knocked on my door and told me he had left the lights on in his car and the battery was dead. Could I give him a jump? Sure.

I pulled my car up next to his. Same make. Same model. Same year. Same color. Same interior. When both hoods were opened, same engines.

Two cars. The same nature. But his wouldn't start. Why? Something was dead. Mine started fine.

 

[TCassidy]

Does God create men as sinners or is there a point in time when they become sinners?

God does not create people today. The rule today is "procreation" not direct creation. And, according to David, we are already sinners at the moment of our procreation.

Here, however, we are dealing with the idea that Jesus and Adam have one human nature and the rest of mankind another.

Nonsense. Human nature is human nature. Divine Nature is Divine Nature. If you try to bifurcate human nature you will also have to bifurcate Divine Nature.

This is how "sin nature" was dealt with by Y1 just a few posts ago.

You will have to take that up with him. I have never been able to get a straight answer, with scriptural support, out of him.

 

[JonC]

He had an unfallen human nature due to his not being "in Adam." That is the purpose of the virgin birth.

I disagree. I believe He had an unfallen human nature because He did not sin. Jesus still had desires of the flesh (e.g., to eat during the fast, to have the nations worship Him at that time, not to be beaten and tortured and hung on a cross) but Jesus remained obedient to the Father. In fact, Jesus said "not my will but Yours". This is the difference - we say "not Your will but mine". I do not believe sin is passed on through physical intercourse or bodily fluids. I also don't believe human nature is passed on through semen. So my view about the reason for the virgin birth is the point that Jesus is the Son of God, not as a preventative measure keeping fallen nature out.

But the human nature in both are fully human.

I agree. Even more - they are the same.

Another illustration (regardless how much you abhor them).

My neighbor knocked on my door and told me he had left the lights on in his car and the battery was dead. Could I give him a jump? Sure.

I pulled my car up next to his. Same make. Same model. Same year. Same color. Same interior. When both hoods were opened, same engines.

Two cars. The same nature. But his wouldn't start. Why? Something was dead. Mine started fine.

I don't abhor your illustrations. I just don't like working twice for the same information .

I understand your view of the sin nature. I held it for a long time (probably still do for the most part, the exception being that I believe our "sin nature" is a matter of the will...that we turn aside and go astray of our own accord, not because we were born this way).

 

[JonC]

God does not create people today. The rule today is "procreation" not direct creation. And, according to David, we are already sinners at the moment of our procreation.

Rather than "procreation", let's keep it biblical. You are saying that when God "knits us" in our mother's womb He knits us as sinners. Is that fair?

Nonsense. Human nature is human nature. Divine Nature is Divine Nature. If you try to bifurcate human nature you will also have to bifurcate Divine Nature.

Exactly my point.

 

[Calv1]

Was Adam predestinated? Please answer and give scripture support. This question arose during SS Class yesterday (Bible Study for you Millennials).

Every Atom's movement in the Universe is Predestined. Read Grudem's excellent Systematic Theology, chapters on God's Soveriengty, it goes through the verse that show He created the Heavens and Earth, then how He maintains plants and animals, then the weather, then man, all with scriptural support. That is a much better way to go about it.

It's like saying "Give me a verse that says "Trinity" in it", better to understand the entire Godhead, everything that comes to pass is ordained by God, yet God does not sin and hates sin nor is the author of it, rather uses third party agents, acting on their highest volition that is evil in order for Him to show good.

It seems weird if you are new to the field, can keep you up at night, but I PROMISE YOU, for I was once unaware, once you step out of faith, put aside traditions, what you pastor says, what your fallen senses say, and just TRUST GOD He will open doors for you to where it's all a beautiful tapestry, with evil people wanting evil, and the elect desiring good yet battling the flesh. In addition you'll see His Sovereignty on EVERY PAGE YOU READ, it's amazing, expect to be humbled, I sure was! All this talk of free will, just a joke, we have a will, but God has free will, whose will do you think is stronger? God says in Jeremiah 32:40 "I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me." There are thousands of verses like this, but if this is all we had it would be enough, God is shattering our "Free Will", so we won't turn from Him. All through we see God affecting hearts "The Kings heart is like streams of water in the hands of the Lord, He TURNS IT ANY WAY HE WISHES", Isaiah praying "Lord why have you hardened our hearts so we fear you not", "So the Lord harded the Assyrians hearts so that they would have the Israelite's and make war with them, and be utterly destroyed".

You can't really learn it on these forums, most just like to argue, plus you get little snippets, I recommend Dr. James White, watch him debate Arminians, excellent for any Christian.

 

[TCassidy]

Is that fair?

No. God is not responsible for our sin.

 

[Calv1]

Was Adam predestinated? Please answer and give scripture support. This question arose during SS Class yesterday (Bible Study for you Millennials).

Stop and think about this, as far as I know it's original (Mine). God created Adam (Man), now He didn't have to create a law, nor did He need to put Satan in the Garden. So if God did not create a law, ADAM COULD NOT HAVE FALLEN, likewise it would be less likely without a tempter.

Of course God ordained the fall, the Cross was not some "Plan B", if man stayed in Adams state he would have never been righteous, Christ like righteous, would never see all of God's glory (Justice and Mercy), remember it was AFTER man fell that God said "Man has become like us, knowing good and evil", only fallen man knows good and evil, God knows all, and man knows experimentally only of all creation.

So back to my point, the SIN was violating a law God did NOT have to create, God is not bound by anyone to do anything, but God did create a law, allowed a tempter in the Garden, and from there man has been able to see God's glory and savor it.

 

[Calv1]

No. God is not responsible for our sin.

No one said God is responsible for our sin! Why do people jump over huge amounts of information and assume false things?

Did God HAVE to make a law in the Garden? Was He bound by some outside force stronger than Him? Why did He create a lie knowing Adam would fail? Did God have to allow Satan in the Garden? Was He compelled?

If God didn't want Adam to sin, all He had to do was not create a law, and keep the tempter away, but as the Westminster Catechism rightly states "God uses secondary agents, while not being responsible for sin", and we see it, was it sinful for God to create a law? No. Was it sinful for God to allow Satan in the Garden? No. However knowing with both of these things man would fall, God did it anyways, thereby ordaining the fall, but not being responsible in any way.

 

[Calv1]

Was Adam predestinated? Please answer and give scripture support. This question arose during SS Class yesterday (Bible Study for you Millennials).

Here's some food for thought, speculative thought. What were Adam and Eve's bodies like? Scripture says Jesus came in "the form of sinful flesh", clearly there was a time Adam didn't have sinful flesh, what was it like? Glowing with glory of God? Is that why they were "Naked". Could Adam and Eve get hurt? I read a interesting piece once on them, I wish I could remember more, but I think above is interesting, did Adam and Eve go to Heaven? Psalms speak badly of them??

 

[TCassidy]

No one said God is responsible for our sin! Why do people jump over huge amounts of information and assume false things?

Read the thread.

 

[Van]

Yes. I believe this is supported in the fact that Jesus is revealed to be the Lamb slain from the creation of the world (Rev 13:8), chosen before the foundation of the world (1 Pt. 1:20).

Leaving aside the misinterpretation of Revelation 13:8, see NET footnote, we must start my defining the scope of the question, was Adam predestinated? Predestinated to what? Scripture tells us Adam volitionally sinned, he was not compelled by God predestinating him to sin. As A. W. Pink observed, God "arranged" for Adam to sin. And because Christ was chosen to be fallen mankind's Redeemer before Adam was created, God certainly anticipated Adam's fall, and the consequence of the fall on mankind.

Was Adam predestinated for salvation based on Ephesians 1:4? No, this election was corporate, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, He chose all those subsequently redeemed by Christ corporately as the target group of His redemption plan.

 

[AndyMartin]

Grace and election are hand in glove.

God extends grace by his choice.

What is so hard for you to understand.

I understand perfectly well. My point is, that it appears from the words of Dr Bottener, that all infants, elect and nonelect are saved when they die. Firstly, where is the Scripture basis for this? Secondly, this then clearly shows, that the death of Jesus Christ DID include the non-elect, which means that He could not have only died for the elect as Calvinism teaches. You simply cannot have it both ways. Either Jesus' death was indeed for the entire human race, which would then include the non-elect infants who die, or, He died only for the elect, and since these infants are non-elect, then they are not included in His death, and cannot be saved when they die. Unless you say that all infants who die are part of the "elect"? This is absurd, and has not Scriptures that teach it!

I have always found inconsistencies with Calvinism, where they make it u as they go along! I think what Dr Bottener, Charles Hodge, W. G. T. Shedd, and B. B. Warfield, and others believe about "infant salvation", that all, including the "non-elect" will be saved, is a game-changer, as they contradict their own unbiblical theology of election! Further, note the words of Dr Bottener, "these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves", where it is clear that some Calvinists teach that infants no not commit "actual sins", so what of the fall of man, and mankind sinning in Adam? More inconsistencies!

Its no wonder the the greater majority of the Christian Church world-wide, shuns the teachings of Calvinism! Praise the Lord for this! Even many Calvinistic Churches are now preaching more like Arminians do, which is closer to the teachings of the Holy Bible. God is working out His purposes.