Predestination

[Iconoclast]

What I was told is that limited atonement makes more logical sense however, because my teachers were strict literalists they refused to try and make sense out of it leaving the antinomy as is.

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Particular Redemption | Monergism

Redemption Accomplished and Applied by John Murray

John Murray Quotes (Author of Redemption Accomplished and Applied)

 

[Dave G]

There is no such thing as Election to salvation.

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. " ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )

His elect ( the whosoever believeth ) are chosen to salvation through two things, Barry...
Sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 )

David is confessing here that the man who is chosen and caused to approach God is blessed.
There is a such thing as election ( being chosen ) to salvation, and respectfully, I'm not sure how you see that the Bible is unclear about it.


This is my final reply in this thread.

I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you in your continued studies of His word

 

[tyndale1946]

I've literally explained the Gosepl to a deaf person ( I dont know sign language ) but I drew the Gospel in pictures to her .

Was she a loving person that you explained the Gospel to?... Brother Glen

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Sai,



No.it is true.
Everyone limits the atonement.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Was she a loving person that you explained the Gospel to?... Brother Glen

And could she read? Quite different from having your brain stem damaged beyond repair.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I posed a real life situation to members of an orthodox Presbyterian church asking their opinion of an infant who dies prior to being brought into their so called church. Where is the child now? The parents were neither married, members of the church, practicing Christians. Guess what the answer was.

That answer BTW forever soured me on Presbyterians.

 

[Barry Johnson]

" And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:47 ).

" Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." ( Acts of the Apostles 18:9-10 ).

Any drawing by the Father ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Any drawing by the Father That is simply saying that when a person believes we don't add ourselves into the body . God does . That's it ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Where you get the idea that God works differently in salvation before and after the cross I do not know, Barry, but all His people are saved the same way...
By His grace.

Only those given to Christ by the Father will come to Him.
Only the foreknown will ever realize the benefits of the rest in Romans 8:28-30.

Only the foreknown will ever be predestinated conformed to the image of His Son, only the foreknown will be called, justified and glorified.

Salvation is limited to the foreknown by Scripture, and is not available to all men.
But only God knows who His elect are, and they are manifest to the world by their belief of the Gospel, by their faith that endures to the end and by their love for one another.

Yes everyone is saved by Grace and by faith. But how that is appropriated is clearly different. Are you building an Ark today ? Offering your son on the alter? where they being saved like we today by believing in the death burial and resurrection like we so today ? no of course not . Was the Holy spirit sealing people until the day of redemption? was anybody in the ' body of Christ? the bride of christ? Jew and gentiles in one body the church? Was anyone ' in christ ' before the resurrection? no .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes everyone is saved by Grace and by faith. But how that is appropriated is clearly different. Are you building an Ark today ? Offering your son on the alter? where they being saved like we today by believing in the death burial and resurrection like we so today ? no of course not . Was the Holy spirit sealing people until the day of redemption? was anybody in the ' body of Christ? the bride of christ? Jew and gentiles in one body the church? Was anyone ' in christ ' before the resurrection? no .

No one was redeemed before the cross . No one had there sins paid before the cross . no one could be in heaven before the cross . No one could say " I am crucified with christ " before the cross . No one could say they were " born again " . baptized by the spirit " ; " a new creation " ; " seated in the heavelies and on and on and on

 

[Barry Johnson]

only if you believe that there are only two systems of theology to accept . which is false . You dont to limit the atonement. You simply have to let go of Calvernism and Armianism ( really it should be Calverminism ) This is the silly faulty reasoning the tricks Arminian s . " oh you dont believe everyone is saved do you? " " your not a universalist are you " ...oh no !!! I dont want to be labelled that " . " ok I.ll fall for your premise " . This is calvernist shell game . A calvernist believes that Jesus secured the elect by dying only for them . Strangely concluding that it's the death of Christ that saves . ( of course no one can be saved apart from the death ) . The error both systems make is thinking it's the death of Jesus that saves. Jesus as the bible plainly says did die for the sins of the world as it clearly says . He died for the entire cosmos . But Jesus redeeming and purchasing literally all things . Like the man in the parable who bought the WHOLE field.
Mathew 13 .Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. This is something the Old testament knew had to happen . As for all those many years of sacrificing clearly demonstrates the sins were not redeemed they were only covered . So heres many people finally having there sins dealt with. But Jesus did more than deal with all those sins from Adam to the cross. He died and literally broke down the middle wall of separation and the barrier between man and God . Everything was dealt with on the cross. Sin in all capacities . Past . present and future sins paid for. Ok so the Calminian thinks " oh so everyone must get saved then ? " why would you think that? We are saved by ' his life " THE RESURECTION " And by RECIEVING THE ATONEMENT " no one receives the Atonement after the cross until they meet the requirement to access the grace through faith...Faith is how the Atonement is recieved . So no blood was wasted . There is no longer any barrier . Jesus dealt with EVERYTHING on your behalf. but we need to access this by faith . It's not automatic .

 

[Barry Johnson]

only if you believe that there are only two systems of theology to accept . which is false . You dont to limit the atonement. You simply have to let go of Calvernism and Armianism ( really it should be Calverminism ) This is the silly faulty reasoning the tricks Arminian s . " oh you dont believe everyone is saved do you? " " your not a universalist are you " ...oh no !!! I dont want to be labelled that " . " ok I.ll fall for your premise " . This is calvernist shell game . A calvernist believes that Jesus secured the elect by dying only for them . Strangely concluding that it's the death of Christ that saves . ( of course no one can be saved apart from the death ) . The error both systems make is thinking it's the death of Jesus that saves. Jesus as the bible plainly says did die for the sins of the world as it clearly says . He died for the entire cosmos . But Jesus redeeming and purchasing literally all things . Like the man in the parable who bought the WHOLE field.
Mathew 13 .Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. This is something the Old testament knew had to happen . As for all those many years of sacrificing clearly demonstrates the sins were not redeemed they were only covered . So heres many people finally having there sins dealt with. But Jesus did more than deal with all those sins from Adam to the cross. He died and literally broke down the middle wall of separation and the barrier between man and God . Everything was dealt with on the cross. Sin in all capacities . Past . present and future sins paid for. Ok so the Calminian thinks " oh so everyone must get saved then ? " why would you think that? We are saved by ' his life " THE RESURECTION " And by RECIEVING THE ATONEMENT " no one receives the Atonement after the cross until they meet the requirement to access the grace through faith...Faith is how the Atonement is recieved . So no blood was wasted . There is no longer any barrier . Jesus dealt with EVERYTHING on your behalf. but we need to access this by faith . It's not automatic .

So the atonement is NOT limited only for those who would believe . THIS IS THE BIGGEST SCAM IN CALVERNISM. Jesus died for EVERYTHING including unbelief. That's a sin is it not? Yes Jesus died for all sins just as the bible says . But we are not simply saved because all sins are dealt with . No the bible says " all have sinned AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD . Yes folks all sins are dealt with . Jesus didn't mess up or waste any blood . But we cannot be saved because of the " come short of the glory of God " bit . We have to recieve the atonement. BY FAITH WE HAVE ACCESS INTO THE GRACE .

 

[Barry Johnson]

So the atonement is NOT limited only for those who would believe . THIS IS THE BIGGEST SCAM IN CALVERNISM. Jesus died for EVERYTHING including unbelief. That's a sin is it not? Yes Jesus died for all sins just as the bible says . But we are not simply saved because all sins are dealt with . No the bible says " all have sinned AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD . Yes folks all sins are dealt with . Jesus didn't mess up or waste any blood . But we cannot be saved because of the " come short of the glory of God " bit . We have to recieve the atonement. BY FAITH WE HAVE ACCESS INTO THE GRACE .

We should be able to tell every one we meet that literally Jesus has paid for there sin and died for them . That's why the Gosepl is good news . For everyone !!! not just the ' frozen chosen ' who are just waiting for a hindu awakening experience where they realise they were the elect all a long . No We can literally tell every soul that Jesus died and payed there sins and they can recieve the atonement by faith . great news of course .

 

[Barry Johnson]

We should be able to tell every one we meet that literally Jesus has paid for there sin and died for them . That's why the Gosepl is good news . For everyone !!! not just the ' frozen chosen ' who are just waiting for a hindu awakening experience where they realise they were the elect all a long . No We can literally tell every soul that Jesus died and payed there sins and they can recieve the atonement by faith . great news of course .

The only folks who are limiting the atonement are Christians believing that Jesus only died for those that would believe . No one is in Hell " paying for there sins " they will be hell because they did not recieve the only thing that could enable them to be in heaven . Failing to believe the truth so as to be saved .

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The only folks who are limiting the atonement are Christians believing that Jesus only died for those that would believe . No one is in Hell " paying for there sins " they will be hell because they did not recieve the only thing that could enable them to be in heaven . Failing to believe the truth so as to be saved .

You should become a Catholic. Maybe you are already one.

 

[Barry Johnson]

You should become a Catholic. Maybe you are already one.

Catholics dont believe in eternal security. They believe that Jesus did not die for sins past present and future. They also believe that you have to endure to the end to be saved . Amongst a whole host of other things that would take too long to mention. So if your reformed you will be closer to Catholicism than those that reject Reformed Calminian beliefs .

 

[Barry Johnson]

You should become a Catholic. Maybe you are already one.

I'm not limiting the atonement which calvernists and as Sproul says the Arminians also are doing . No there is no such thing as ' Limited atonement ' . The catholics of course limiting the atonement.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Was she a loving person that you explained the Gospel to?... Brother Glen

not sure what you mean ?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

not sure what you mean ?

So Barry, how under your thinking process does my cerebral palsy sister gets into heaven? What’s your answer!

 

[Barry Johnson]

So Barry, how under your thinking process does my cerebral palsy sister gets into heaven? What’s your answer!

Anyone that is unable ( like babies and small children ) to believe the Gosepl because of a brain injury or something like this then they would not be guilty of refusing the truth so as to be saved . Otherwise are you saying that God has chosen babies and people with mental disabilities to go to hell ?