Predestination

[reformedbeliever]

How are you making a logically consistent argument?

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He himself tempts no one.
​

So, God is not the author of sin.

But, if God is the author of Satan, who is the author of sin (1 Chr 21:1) through temptation, then God is the ultimate author of sin...

unless Satan has "surprised God" by doing something God never intended...

but if that is the case, and Satan lures men to follow him, then they to are doing something God never intended...

in which case their behavior is not pre-destinated = fore-ordained.

If all of creation is a simple mechanistic clock whose myriad gears all tick according to God's design, then those gears which grind against the others and cause problems (ie, sin) are doing so by God's design...

which design is then imperfect. But at the time of Creation, at the "Big Bang" as it were,

Genesis 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
​

God's creation was good and perfect and pure, not corrupted by sin. Sin did not enter Creation until the Fall of Man in Genesis 3.

Theology must be consistent and clear. Beware of using the word "mystery":

Rev 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
​

The reader may note that, throughout Scripture, YHWH reveals and uncovers mysteries, so that they are no longer such. That is, God opposes mysteries, as the Light opposes Darkness.

The whole point of "satan" is that "satan" rebels against God's order, God's Reich as it were. And would God predestine a rebellion against His own Creation?? For, sin serves no purpose but death, yet YHWH-God is the Everlasting God of Life.

Are you an open theist? Do you not think God is in control. I never said God is the author of sin.

 

[Hope of Glory]

After justification, every believer is conformed to some degree to the image of Christ. Some advance further than others in sanctification. Some advance very little. Some even regress. Some advance greatly. But none ever advance completely. But we will all be complete at our glorification and resurrection fulfilling Romans 8:29-30.

You might want to do a search in Scriptures using grammar.

While we are justified forever in one sense, by the finished work of Jesus on the cross, we are commanded to justify ourselves constantly, and are told that not all will.

Don't confuse the two messages: The doctrine of salvation and the doctrine of the Kingdom.

We may or may not be glorified in the coming Kingdom. We might just stand there ashamed and we might just be weeping and gnashing our teeth when we see what we missed out on.

But, still in the family.

You cannot use Romans 8:29-30 to "prove" your point, since the point is to prove your contentions about Romans 8:29-30. That's circular reasoning and it's a fallacious argument, no matter what you're trying to prove.

No one ever advances into a distinct class of believers that are more justified than other believers. We are never more (or less) justified on our day of conversion than we are the day we enter heaven.

Makes you wonder why God bothered telling us to be justified in the present tense as an imperative, if we're all justified exactly the same the moment we're save as the day we enter heaven.

I wonder what incentive we have to be righteous?

Phil 1:6. I Cor. 15. I John 3:2

What does Philippians 1:6 have to do with predestination?

1 Corinthians 15? (It can, but your statement is rather broad.)

1 John 3:2? To whom is it written? How does it apply to predestination?

 

[Andy T.]

I'm sorry HoG, but I am one of the many who simply reject your "Kingdom doctrines," so we are not even on the same page. You are barking up the wrong tree. Call me a heretic or a teeth-nasher, I don't care.

What does Philippians 1:6 have to do with predestination?

1 Corinthians 15? (It can, but your statement is rather broad.)

1 John 3:2? To whom is it written? How does it apply to predestination?

Actually, I was answering your question to back up the assertion that all believers will be conformed to the image of Christ. I believe the Bible teaches we are all conformed to some degree or another, but we will not be completely conformed until our glorification and resurrection.

If you want to keep discussing your "Kingdom doctrines" I suggest you start a new thread, as this one has diverted from the OP.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Then how do these verses prove that every single saved person will be conformed?

I see assumptions, but no proof.

You say that's what we're predestinated to and that all saved people are predestinated to it, while some say we're only predestinated to be saved.

Take these verses and show us how they prove what you are claiming.

 

[joycebuckner]

Praise be to God for His loving kindness and ever presents. God made us man with a mind to know wheither to do right or wrong. He made posion berries, but he gave us the brains to leave them alone.
I need to asl a question of someone or if at all possible one of the Calvinist on here , Please.
I had an Uncle the was Calvinist...He even unto the end of his lifew said time and again that he felt something that felt like" God calling , a pulling at his heart" But he said that it would do no good to ask Christ into his life because that was already planned for him. God calling to a man that lived a good mans life but refused the call of Christ because he was taught that it would do him no good.
Please forgive me if I talk as a simple person on here, but as Spurgen said, " I will speak as a simple person so that all mat understand the way of salvation and the word of God. You can all try to impress each other with your $ 10.00 words(as my extrreemly learned Pastor always called them)

How can anyone read the Holy loving word of God and tell another that John 3:16 and 17 is not really meant for what it says. ALL means ALL. not the ones that God predestended. God knnows our future if we go his way or our own. That doesn'tr make Him making robots. He created man to have someone to fellowship with.
My Uncle is forever in Hell because of teachings that Satan is so proud of. You hav e no choice..... God doesn't really love all the world as he says in his Holy word. How can one man help to condemn a man to hell with their teachings and not seek truth? How can a man tell another that God hates one and loves another. Do not just look a verse, but rather STUDY what you nare looking up.
My Uncle did not have to go to hell. God"did not " want him there. Help me to understand how you can do thi:tear: s to man?:tear:

 

[Andy T.]

Then how do these verses prove that every single saved person will be conformed?

I see assumptions, but no proof.

You say that's what we're predestinated to and that all saved people are predestinated to it, while some say we're only predestinated to be saved.

Take these verses and show us how they prove what you are claiming.

Romans 8:29 - God predestined some to be conformed to the image of Christ. In v. 30, he expands on those of whom he is talking about - those that he called, justified and glorified. In other word, those that he saves will be conformed to the image of Christ.

Philippians 1:6 - He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it. "Will be" connotes that it is a sure thing - i.e., predestined.

I Corinthians 15 speaks of our resurrection and how Christ's resurrection is the basis for ours. Speaking to believers, there are no conditions to Paul's statements - all the saved will be resurrected and given glorfied, spiritual bodies of which Christ's resurrected body is the basis. Since I believe that all the promises of Scriptures will come true - I can count on this happening, i.e. it is predestined to happen.

I John 3:2 - again, written to believers with the assurance that "we will be like him" when we see him as he is at his appearing. This will happen to every believer, thus, it is predestined.

I know these are short and simple answers and not nearly smart enough for you and your cryptic doctrines. I guess I'm one of the many stupid ones who fail to see any coherence or sense in your obscure doctrines. But I'm sure you'll give me plenty of reasons why I am wrong and don't know the Greek, grammar, etc.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Praise be to God for His loving kindness and ever presents. God made us man with a mind to know wheither to do right or wrong. He made posion berries, but he gave us the brains to leave them alone.
I need to asl a question of someone or if at all possible one of the Calvinist on here , Please.
I had an Uncle the was Calvinist...He even unto the end of his lifew said time and again that he felt something that felt like" God calling , a pulling at his heart" But he said that it would do no good to ask Christ into his life because that was already planned for him. God calling to a man that lived a good mans life but refused the call of Christ because he was taught that it would do him no good.
Please forgive me if I talk as a simple person on here, but as Spurgen said, " I will speak as a simple person so that all mat understand the way of salvation and the word of God. You can all try to impress each other with your $ 10.00 words(as my extrreemly learned Pastor always called them)

How can anyone read the Holy loving word of God and tell another that John 3:16 and 17 is not really meant for what it says. ALL means ALL. not the ones that God predestended. God knnows our future if we go his way or our own. That doesn'tr make Him making robots. He created man to have someone to fellowship with.
My Uncle is forever in Hell because of teachings that Satan is so proud of. You hav e no choice..... God doesn't really love all the world as he says in his Holy word. How can one man help to condemn a man to hell with their teachings and not seek truth? How can a man tell another that God hates one and loves another. Do not just look a verse, but rather STUDY what you nare looking up.
My Uncle did not have to go to hell. God"did not " want him there. Help me to understand how you can do thi:tear: s to man?:tear:

Hello Mrs. Buckner. I believe someone taught your uncle wrong. I am a Calvinist, but I believe we do have to make a choice to be saved. I believe that a man can resist the calling of God for a while, but if that man is one of God's elect, he will eventually understand his sin and call out to God for mercy, and to place his faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. I don't think that mainstream calvinist teaching is from satan. There have been many Godly men who have been some of the greatest evangelist alive and they were calvinist.
John 3:16 and 17 means exactly what it say, in context. The context is that men loved darkness rather than the light for their deeds were evil, therefore they needed to be born again. See the first part of chapter 3.
I'm sorry your uncle had a false teacher. My biggest question about all this is; did you and Allan try to show him where the teaching was wrong, or did you not know enough about mainstream calvinism to be able to show him?
Please know that I highly respect you for who you are, a fellow Christian, and Allan's mom.

 

[joycebuckner]

Reformedbeliever, Yes, I and many others. Allan did not have the honor of getting to know my Uncle well. I showed him scripture but he kept going back to his pastor, that kept telling him,"either he was or he wasn't." And who did he believe. Sir, I am in earnest searching for an answer.My soul crys out to God to find mercy for my uncle's soul, but he made his own choice.
I do not come in herre to find reason to argue. I come to speek with other Christians. I know that we will disagree at times and so what. But sir I asked this question in earnest.
And why do you think sir that Allan is my son??( just wondering )
I will bless God at all times

 

[joycebuckner]

And no Mr. Reformedbeliever, I must not have known enough about your mainstreem Calinism or my Uncle may not be in Hell today..
God's blessings on you sir

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformedbeliever, Yes, I and many others. Allan did not have the honor of getting to know my Uncle well. I showed him scripture but he kept going back to his pastor, that kept telling him,"either he was or he wasn't." And who did he believe. Sir, I am in earnest searching for an answer.My soul crys out to God to find mercy for my uncle's soul, but he made his own choice.
I do not come in herre to find reason to argue. I come to speek with other Christians. I know that we will disagree at times and so what. But sir I asked this question in earnest.
And why do you think sir that Allan is my son??( just wondering )
I will bless God at all times

Because he told us so.

I don't wanna argue with you either. I was just trying to say that what you shared with us is not mainstream calvinism. Most all calvinists believe that one must have faith ( believe, make a choice ) to be saved.

 

[reformedbeliever]

And no Mr. Reformedbeliever, I must not have known enough about your mainstreem Calinism or my Uncle may not be in Hell today..
God's blessings on you sir

Hang around here long enough, and keep your ears open, and you will learn what mainstream calvinism teaches. There are many here who have heard so many misrepresentations and believed them for so long, that they will not hear the truth about what mainstream calvinists believe if it hits them between the eyes. I hope you are not that way. God's blessings on you too Mrs. Buckner.

 

[joycebuckner]

Mr. Reformedbeliever,
I am open to finding out what and why others believe as they do. Sir, even though I do not take to divorce without one having the only reason given by scriptures for it...I am so. I know and agree that I must stay single always now. But I some how fell still attached when being called Mrs. Buckner...silly I know. But I am still trying to learn to get over this thing of 5 years now. So please.....Joyce.
How do I know which of you are talking of the true Calvinist. It would be nice to learn what you see as truth.......I have carried a harden heart because of my uncle for some time. I am so ashamed to say. But I was blaming all Calvinist for teaching such things.....
For believing this without seeking your true beliefs, I owe all of you an apology
In His Love and Mercy...Be blessed

 

[reformedbeliever]

Mr. Reformedbeliever,
I am open to finding out what and why others believe as they do. Sir, even though I do not take to divorce without one having the only reason given by scriptures for it...I am so. I know and agree that I must stay single always now. But I some how fell still attached when being called Mrs. Buckner...silly I know. But I am still trying to learn to get over this thing of 5 years now. So please.....Joyce.
How do I know which of you are talking of the true Calvinist. It would be nice to learn what you see as truth.......I have carried a harden heart because of my uncle for some time. I am so ashamed to say. But I was blaming all Calvinist for teaching such things.....
For believing this without seeking your true beliefs, I owe all of you an apology
In His Love and Mercy...Be blessed

Ok Joyce. It is hard to know what mainstream calvinism teach, as it is for mainstream non-calvinist...lol. So many people have so many different beliefs, sometimes its hard to imagine we are the group Jesus was praying for in John 17.... that we would be in unity as one.
To try to show you what mainstream calvinist believe in one day or even one month would be hard to do. The main thing is the TULIP acrostic I suppose. Total depravity, unconditional election, limited or particular attonement, irrestible grace, and perseverance of the saints.
There are many that would take the above acrostics and try to make something of them that they are not. For example, irrestible grace does not mean that people will not resist, but that they will finally come to faith if they are elect. I know I resisted, but when the Holy Spirit broke my heart, I no longer resisted...
I've been in a meeting tonight for a long time, and i'm tired and i'm hurting, so i'm getting off here. I pray you will stick around. I think you will enjoy it and i'm sure you will learn. I'm sure you have a lot to offer us too. God bless and keep you.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Romans 8:29 - God predestined some to be conformed to the image of Christ. In v. 30, he expands on those of whom he is talking about - those that he called, justified and glorified. In other word, those that he saves will be conformed to the image of Christ.

So, it's talking about those who are called. What about the rest of the saved individuals?

Philippians 1:6 - He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it. "Will be" connotes that it is a sure thing - i.e., predestined.

Who is "you"? (I'll give you a hint: It's the saints, bishops, and deacons, not everyone.)

I Corinthians 15 speaks of our resurrection and how Christ's resurrection is the basis for ours. Speaking to believers, there are no conditions to Paul's statements - all the saved will be resurrected and given glorfied, spiritual bodies of which Christ's resurrected body is the basis. Since I believe that all the promises of Scriptures will come true - I can count on this happening, i.e. it is predestined to happen.

Once again, you are making assumptions.

Why was he resurrected? (I'll give you a hint: It wasn't so that we could be saved; he died so that we could be saved. He died for all, but his blood was shed for many.)

I John 3:2 - again, written to believers with the assurance that "we will be like him" when we see him as he is at his appearing. This will happen to every believer, thus, it is predestined.

Once again, who is this epistle written to? (I'll give you a hint: to say "everyone who is saved" is an assumption that is not supported by Scriptures, only supported by the traditions of men.)

I know these are short and simple answers and not nearly smart enough for you and your cryptic doctrines. I guess I'm one of the many stupid ones who fail to see any coherence or sense in your obscure doctrines. But I'm sure you'll give me plenty of reasons why I am wrong and don't know the Greek, grammar, etc.

Typical response from someone who doesn't care what the Scriptures say.

There are those in the "other denominations" forum who are further away from me theologically than you are, but at least they are willing to look at the Scriptures and what they actually say and discuss things from there.

Of course, it's easier to be sarcastic, and simply say, "Nyah nyah nyah!"

 

[Andy T.]

So, it's talking about those who are called. What about the rest of the saved individuals?

It is talking about saved people - those who are called are justified. Those who are justified are saved.

Who is "you"? (I'll give you a hint: It's the saints, bishops, and deacons, not everyone.)

The saints are the "called out ones" - the saved. So it is written to the church in Philippi who are led by the bishops (elders) and deacons.

I'm guessing you have some cryptic interpretation that says "saints" means the 2nd tier Christians. A question - how does one ever know that they have made it to this 2nd tier? How good or obedient must I be in order to attain that status? It's the same problem that works salvation has - one can never know whether he's in or not, and whether he'll stay there. The New Testament does not radically divide the people of God like that.

Why was he resurrected? (I'll give you a hint: It wasn't so that we could be saved; he died so that we could be saved. He died for all, but his blood was shed for many.)

The resurrection of Christ is integral to our justification. Otherwise, we are still in our sins. I Cor. 15:17. Are you saying that not all the justified (saved) will be resurrected?

Once again, who is this epistle written to? (I'll give you a hint: to say "everyone who is saved" is an assumption that is not supported by Scriptures, only supported by the traditions of men.)

To say that I John was not written to everyone who is saved is a "tradition" too. By "tradition" I mean interpretation. I think yours is a wrong interpretation. You think mine is a wrong intepretation. Give me your best reason(s) as to why your intepretation is right. A straight-forward reading of I John suggests that he is writing to all believers. Give me a reason why the straight-forward reading is not right.

Typical response from someone who doesn't care what the Scriptures say.

No, I care what Scriptures say. I simply don't care what your tradition thinks they mean. I guess I'm being stubbornly Baptist - priesthood of the believer and all that. I think your tradition is wrong in how it radically divides believers into cryptic groups.

There are those in the "other denominations" forum who are further away from me theologically than you are, but at least they are willing to look at the Scriptures and what they actually say and discuss things from there.

Open-mindedness isn't always a virtue. If your tradition is so apparent, then you should pray that God will open my eyes and make it plain to me. I mean, I should be able to just read Scripture and see it all clearly without the intrusion of your tradition, right?

 

[bound]

I believe that Predestination is the creaturely perspective of God's Foreknowledge but we really must recognize that God is eternal and as eternal exists in an eternal 'now' which allow Him a unique perspective of 'time'.

Because God exists in an eternal 'now', He sees the beginning and the end of all things 'at once'. Time, as a linear series of transformations, simply is not experienced by God who, because He is immutable and eternal (i.e. beyond materiality).

God simply does not encounter time as we do. There is nothing to new to encounter because He encounters all within an eternal 'now'. From our perspective, time is a recordable series of transformations, both physical and intellectual. We are finite and thus encounter new experiences which are unknown because we are not omniscient as God is. Thus His Foreknowledge does not preclude our participation in time because time is not a linear series of transformations from God's eternal 'now'. Every stage of our individual lives are simply 'now' from the point of view of God who is eternal and by being eternal is outside of time. Our salvation or damnation simply 'is' from God's point of view but from our's we encounter it as a series of transformations over the course of our 'time' here on earth. God knows but His knowing does not preclude our participation so we need not be overly concerned with the notice of Predestination.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I believe that Predestination is the creaturely perspective of God's Foreknowledge but we really must recognize that God is eternal and as eternal exists in an eternal 'now' which allow Him a unique perspective of 'time'.

Because God exists in an eternal 'now', He sees the beginning and the end of all things 'at once'. Time, as a linear series of transformations, simply is not experienced by God who, because He is immutable and eternal (i.e. beyond materiality).

God simply does not encounter time as we do. There is nothing to new to encounter because He encounters all within an eternal 'now'. From our perspective, time is a recordable series of transformations, both physical and intellectual. We are finite and thus encounter new experiences which are unknown because we are not omniscient as God is. Thus His Foreknowledge does not preclude our participation in time because time is not a linear series of transformations from God's eternal 'now'. Every stage of our individual lives are simply 'now' from the point of view of God who is eternal and by being eternal is outside of time. Our salvation or damnation simply 'is' from God's point of view but from our's we encounter it as a series of transformations over the course of our 'time' here on earth. God knows but His knowing does not preclude our participation so we need not be overly concerned with the notice of Predestination.

Yeah, i'm sure God made a mistake when He inspired it to be writen in the Bible. He probably made a mistake when He inspired words such as appoint or appointed.... chose before..... etc. He probably even made a mistake when He inspired Paul to tell Timothy that all scripture is God breathed, and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
And to top it off, He probably made a mistake to tell mankind that He did these things before the foundation of the world... since God is omnitemporal etc.........

 

[Andy T.]

Bound, I have no fundamental problem with the "eternal now" theory (and a theory it is, as are all beliefs on how God experiences time). I think it is an acceptable way to describe God's relation to time. The problem I see in how it is expressed, however, is that it leaves God as merely watching us - an almost deistic god - sitting back and merely watching his creation. When push comes to shove, orthodox Christians will deny that deistic tendencey, but sometimes it seems that people are so afraid of God predestining something and actively working out his plan, that they end up expressing something closer to deism than the God of Scripture.

 

[webdog]

Yeah, i'm sure God made a mistake when He inspired it to be writen in the Bible. He probably made a mistake when He inspired words such as appoint or appointed.... chose before..... etc. He probably even made a mistake when He inspired Paul to tell Timothy that all scripture is God breathed, and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
And to top it off, He probably made a mistake to tell mankind that He did these things before the foundation of the world... since God is omnitemporal etc.........

Why would you call them mistakes? Those are all words written to men who are finite and bound by time. It's so we can get a slight understanding of God's sovereignty. Communication is dictated by not only the one initiating it, but the ability and understanding of the one who receives it. We know what choose before, pre, fore, means. These words do not apply to an omnipresent God, however.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Why would you call them mistakes? Those are all words written to men who are finite and bound by time. It's so we can get a slight understanding of God's sovereignty. Communication is dictated by not only the one initiating it, but the ability and understanding of the one who receives it. We know what choose before, pre, fore, means. These words do not apply to an omnipresent God, however.

God's words don't apply to Him? Now that is a new one. Where is that in scripture?