"Predestined According to the Purpose of Him Who Works all things According to the Counsel of His Will", Ephesians 1:11.

[kyredneck]

I do not have to accuse you of holding to pagan philosophy, history does that just fine.

More claptrap from you.

The scripture I post is NOT paganism.

 

[Silverhair]

More claptrap from you.

The scripture I post is NOT paganism.

KY get it straight. I did not say the scripture you post is paganism.

Now try to remember this:

The foundation of the religious position that you hold, TULIP/DoG, is pagan philosophy.

That is factual as I have shown you. And as you can easily check for yourself.

Where the problem comes in is that you are reading the word of God through that false philosophy.

No need of getting mad at the messenger. Get mad at augustine, calvin, and all the other calvinist teachers that have brought that pagan philosophy down to the present day.

 

[atpollard]

So if you agree 100% with Barnes then you will have to do a rethink of what you just posted.

God offers.
People refuse.
Jesus saves anyway.

That is what I see, so I agree with Barnes and Paul and almost all theologians (not that any of them count - Sola Scriptura means that only God’s opinion counts), that … JESUS SAVES!

Not my decision. Not hearing the words (millions hear and mock).
God the Father GIVES people to the God the Son and God the Son is 100% responsible for fixing what is broken.

“… I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you.” Ezekiel 36:26
“… have been carried out in God.” John 3:21
“… I give them eternal life” John 10:28
“… The Lord opened her heart to pay attention” Acts 16:14
“… it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” Romans 9:16
“… not your own doing; it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
“… it is God who works in you, both to will and to work” Philippians 2:13

 

[Silverhair]

God offers.
People refuse.
Jesus saves anyway.

That is what I see, so I agree with Barnes and Paul and almost all theologians (not that any of them count - Sola Scriptura means that only God’s opinion counts), that … JESUS SAVES!

Not my decision. Not hearing the words (millions hear and mock).
God the Father GIVES people to the God the Son and God the Son is 100% responsible for fixing what is broken.

“… I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you.” Ezekiel 36:26
“… have been carried out in God.” John 3:21
“… I give them eternal life” John 10:28
“… The Lord opened her heart to pay attention” Acts 16:14
“… it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” Romans 9:16
“… not your own doing; it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
“… it is God who works in you, both to will and to work” Philippians 2:13

I agree that Jesus [God} saves. But you left out the critical part. He only saves those that believe in Him.

Rom 1:16 the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Act 16:30 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved

Rom 5:1 having been justified by faith, we have peace with God
Rom 5:2 we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace

Rom 10:9 confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption ...the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Eph 1:13 In Him, after listening to ... the gospel ...having also believed, you were sealed in Him

Eph 2:5 made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;

Actually hearing the words is important just as the response that the hearer has is important.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You can not stop short of the means of salvation, God has provided the means but man must choose to either accept or reject the only means of salvation, faith in the risen son Jesus Christ.

 

[David Lamb]

The text does not show or say that KY. That is just something that your C/R view requires.

But we only have to look at the next chapter of Ephesians:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:1-10 NKJV)

Nowhere there does Paul give any indication that God waited for the Ephesians to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and then give them new life. It is God Who made them alive, raised them up, and made them sit in the heavenly places. Their salvation was a result of God's grace, His gift.

 

[Silverhair]

But we only have to look at the next chapter of Ephesians:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:1-10 NKJV)

Nowhere there does Paul give any indication that God waited for the Ephesians to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and then give them new life. It is God Who made them alive, raised them up, and made them sit in the heavenly places. Their salvation was a result of God's grace, His gift.

@David Lamb you do realize that when Paul wrote his letter to the Ephesians he did not write it in chapters.

You have to remember that we are told why we are saved in the preceding chapter/earlier in his letter. Eph 1:13-14

No one should question that our salvation is a gift from God. Man does not/cannot save himself. But we have numerous verses that show our salvation is in response to our free will faith in the risen son.

We see this stated in the post that you made
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

We see that it is through faith in Christ Jesus that we are saved
Eph 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Eph 3:12 in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

Eph 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

This is the consistent message of Paul, salvation is through faith in Christ Jesus.

Read Act 16:30-31 could Paul have made it any clearer?
Act 16:30 ... "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, ...

Being dead in our sins does not mean that we cannot hear and respond to the invitation of the gospel message. Actually Paul has told us that the gospel is "the power of God for salvation to everyone" but it is only effective for the one "who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Rom 1:16

The bible does not contradict itself. But if we are to understand the message found in the bible we have to listen to the whole council of God.

Pro 2:3 For if you cry for discernment, Lift your voice for understanding;
Pro 2:4 If you seek her as silver And search for her as for hidden treasures;
Pro 2:5 Then you will discern the fear of the LORD And discover the knowledge of God.
Pro 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding

 

[atpollard]

I agree that Jesus [God} saves. But you left out the critical part. He only saves those that believe in Him.

Actually hearing the words is important just as the response that the hearer has is important.

You can not stop short of the means of salvation, God has provided the means but man must choose to either accept or reject the only means of salvation, faith in the risen son Jesus Christ.

I did not “leave it out” or “stop short” …

“… The Lord opened her heart to pay attention” Acts 16:14
“… it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” Romans 9:16
“… not your own doing; it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
“… it is God who works in you, both to will and to work” Philippians 2:13

Jesus Saves … it is all “of God” and not of “human will” or our “own doing” … it is “the gift of God“ and “God who works in you”.

That is why … to HIM belongs all Glory and Honor and Praise (”not of ourselves that we should boast” … except to “boast of our weakness”).

“I have learned to kiss the wave that throws me against the Rock of Ages.” - Charles Spurgeon

 

[Silverhair]

I did not “leave it out” or “stop short” …

“… The Lord opened her heart to pay attention” Acts 16:14
“… it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” Romans 9:16
“… not your own doing; it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
“… it is God who works in you, both to will and to work” Philippians 2:13

Jesus Saves … it is all “of God” and not of “human will” or our “own doing” … it is “the gift of God“ and “God who works in you”.

That is why … to HIM belongs all Glory and Honor and Praise (”not of ourselves that we should boast” … except to “boast of our weakness”).

“I have learned to kiss the wave that throws me against the Rock of Ages.” - Charles Spurgeon

But if all God does is open the heart then nothing will happen. The person still has to respond to the invitation. That is what you seem to miss.

God does get all the glory for our salvation. We do not save ourselves but we do have to receive the gift as He does not force it on us.

 

[Brightfame52]

@atpollard

That is what I see, so I agree with Barnes and Paul and almost all theologians (not that any of them count - Sola Scriptura means that only God’s opinion counts), that … JESUS SAVES!

Not my decision. Not hearing the words (millions hear and mock).
God the Father GIVES people to the God the Son and God the Son is 100% responsible for fixing what is broken.

or Saving the Lost Sheep of His People. People dont realize that all salvation of a people was solely conditioned on Christ, it was His God given Covenant responsivity to do so Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Those are salvation blessings

So upon successfully fulfilling His Covenant responsibility, He sits in heaven mediating the salvation blessings upon them He shed His Blood for and saved,

Heb 8:8-12

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[Silverhair]

@atpollard



or Saving the Lost Sheep of His People. People dont realize that all salvation of a people was solely conditioned on Christ, it was His God given Covenant responsivity to do so Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Those are salvation blessings

So upon successfully fulfilling His Covenant responsibility, He sits in heaven mediating the salvation blessings upon them He shed His Blood for and saved,

Heb 8:8-12

Correct BF. JESUS SAVES! And just as the bible clearly shows us, He will save all those the freely trust in Him for their salvation .

That is not a hard concept to understand so I do wonder why so many of the C/R view cannot grasp it?

 

[atpollard]

The person still has to respond to the invitation.

Who DOES something (according to God)?
“… The Lord opened her heart to pay attention” Acts 16:14
“… it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” Romans 9:16
“… not your own doing; it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
“… it is God who works in you, both to will and to work” Philippians 2:13

Who DOES NOT do something (according to God)?
“… it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” Romans 9:16
“… not your own doing; it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8

That is what you seem to miss.

Who has truly missed what GOD has said?

 

[Brightfame52]

Correct BF. JESUS SAVES! And just as the bible clearly shows us, He will save all those the freely trust in Him for their salvation .

That is not a hard concept to understand so I do wonder why so many of the C/R view cannot grasp it?

They believe after He saves them by opening their eyes, the eyes of faith Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

To give spiritual sight to the people is part of His Saving responsibility. Before that, man is blinded in unbelief by satan 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Gill writes and I agree of Isa 42:7

To open the blind eyes,.... Of the idolatrous Gentiles, who were spiritually blind, and knew not the wretchedness of their case; the exceeding sinfulness of sin; their need of a Saviour, and who he was; as they did, when their eyes were opened by means of the Gospel sent among them, through the energy of the divine Spirit; for this is a work of almighty power and efficacious grace:
to bring out the prisoners from the prison; who were concluded in sin, shut up in unbelief, and under the law, the captives of Satan, and held fast prisoners by him and their own lusts, under the dominion of which they were:

and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house: of sin, Satan, and the law; being under which, they were in a state of darkness and ignorance as to things divine and spiritual. The allusion is to prisons, which are commonly dark places. Vitringa, by the "prisoners", understands the Jews shut up under the law; and by those in "darkness" the Gentiles, destitute of all divine knowledge.

See all men by nature and judgment because of original sin are shut up by God in unbelief Rom 11:32

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That word concluded[ sugkleió:]means to enclose or to imprison in unbelief, and Jesus brings the elect out of the prison of unbelief

so to deliver one up to the power of a person or thing that he is completely shut in, as it were, without means of escape:

So one cannot believe, or trust until released from the confinement of unbelief.

One someone believes in the True Christ, its an evidence He saved them.

 

[atpollard]

He will save all those the freely trust in Him for their salvation .

By GOD putting “my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.” - Hebrews 8:10-11

God is the GREAT CAUSE of their trust and belief … the one “who works in you, both to will and to work” - Philippians 2:13.

 

[Silverhair]

Who DOES something (according to God)?
“… The Lord opened her heart to pay attention” Acts 16:14
“… it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” Romans 9:16
“… not your own doing; it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
“… it is God who works in you, both to will and to work” Philippians 2:13

Who DOES NOT do something (according to God)?
“… it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” Romans 9:16
“… not your own doing; it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8


Who has truly missed what GOD has said?

Your view makes God the ultimate sinner.

It is really sad to see people so willing to fallow a religious view that is historically proven to be based on pagan philosophy.

You continue to misuse the word of God to support what can only be called an affront to God.

For God So Loved the World
Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

The C/R false religion has made the offer of God Rom 1:16 " For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Into and insincere offer. Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election that will partake of the Limited Atonement will then be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own theology precludes this, but you it seems do not want to acknowledge that fact. Although God says He desires all to come to repentance
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

C/R theology has made the good faith offer of salvation moot. If, according to the C/R view, you are not part of this select group then you are doomed form the start. And on top of that God has even decreed just the way you will act out your sinful life and then condemns you for it.

The bible tells us God is the savior of all men 1Ti 4:10 "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers." The C/R's tells us He is the savior of only a pre-selected group.

So @atpollard you are correct in one sense. We should ask "Who has truly missed what GOD has said?"

Those that trust the written word of God or those that follow the man-made false philosophy of the C/R's

 

[Silverhair]

They believe after He saves them by opening their eyes, the eyes of faith Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

To give spiritual sight to the people is part of His Saving responsibility. Before that, man is blinded in unbelief by satan 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Gill writes and I agree of Isa 42:7



See all men by nature and judgment because of original sin are shut up by God in unbelief Rom 11:32

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That word concluded[ sugkleió:]means to enclose or to imprison in unbelief, and Jesus brings the elect out of the prison of unbelief

so to deliver one up to the power of a person or thing that he is completely shut in, as it were, without means of escape:

So one cannot believe, or trust until released from the confinement of unbelief.

One someone believes in the True Christ, its an evidence He saved them.

You can continue to trust in that false religion or you can trust in the word of God but you cannot do both.

 

[Silverhair]

By GOD putting “my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.” - Hebrews 8:10-11

God is the GREAT CAUSE of their trust and belief … the one “who works in you, both to will and to work” - Philippians 2:13.

If you had just bothered to read these two verses you would not have made the error you seem to have made.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
Heb 8:9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.

And here again just a bit i=of reading would have cleared up your obvious error. Paul is writing to believers and telling them it is the Holy Spirit {God} who is at work in them. So that they will prove themselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation.

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

You continue to misuse the word of God in a failed attempt to support your C/R religion.

 

[Brightfame52]

You can continue to trust in that false religion or you can trust in the word of God but you cannot do both.

And you continue to ignore and resist the Truth of God. Christ in saving those He represented in covenant with God, does this for them,

Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

And the light in Vs 6 is regeneration, the light of life Jn 8:12

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world[gentiles]: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

[Silverhair]

And you continue to ignore and resist the Truth of God. Christ in saving those He represented in covenant with God, does this for them,

Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

And the light in Vs 6 is regeneration, the light of life Jn 8:12

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world[gentiles]: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

BF you just continue to prove what I have been saying, man has a free will with which to reject or to trust in Christ Jesus.

Christ is the light of the world [all humanity]. So if we used your understanding of what "light" means then what do we see that the bible tells

Joh 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
So you are saying every man will be regenerated, are you a universalist BF?

Te bible gives us a explanation of what it means when Christ is called the light of the world.

Jesus Came to Save the World
Joh 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.
Joh 12:45 "He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
Joh 12:46 "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
Joh 12:47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Jesus came as the light to the world and we see both those that freely trust in Him and those that freely reject Him in these verses.

Your continued misuse of scripture just shows it is not the bible you believe but yourself.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

BF you just continue to prove what I have been saying, man has a free will with which to reject or to trust in Christ Jesus.

You have no idea what you see in Isa 42:6-7 Nothing about freewill

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



You have no idea what you see in Isa 42:6-7 Nothing about freewill

There is nothing about "regeneration" in that verse and yet you find it as you need it to support your false religion.

BF can you answer this, where do you see "the light in Vs 6 is regeneration"
Do you find this, new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation in Isa 42:6

Isa 42:6 "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations,

BF you also posted this verse to support your errant view.
Joh 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

There is your free will BF. They have to make the choice to follow.

All you can see is the man-made theology of calvinism.