Predestined to Damnation?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

There are only two moral possibilities. Either there is love and benevolence or selfishness and sin. If in fact one is predestined, logic demands that the other is predestined by default as well.

Would there be any that would like to explain how if in fact God predestined, that is by necessity brought to pass, some to love, that He in fact by necessity must also predestine all others to damnation?

 

[billwald]

Then you agree that those who love their neighbor must logically be elect in spite of a lack of church affiliation and/or "having invited Jesus. . . ?"

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Billwald: Then you agree that those who love their neighbor must logically be elect in spite of a lack of church affiliation and/or "having invited Jesus. . . ?"

HP: First, I do not believe that predestination means necessitated obedience nor can it be. I have to maintain that even the sinner can act in love under certain situations, but such intents or subsequent action do not make the sinner part of the elect neither do such loving intents on the sinners part have any capacity to atone for or make up for the wrongs they have committed. Such loving acts are not to be associated with righteousness, in any meritorious sense.

Without the atoning work of Christ, and having accepted that work via the fulfilling of the conditions God has set forth for the forgiveness of sins, they cannot be thought of in the sense of being elect from man’s limited perspective. God knows full well the future and if in fact they will fulfill the conditions of salvation, but God does not grant to us that perspective. From God’s omniscient perspective they well may part of the elect, but no man can see from that perspective except by faith and that only as we are walking in the light

If one has accepted the Lord as their Savior by the fulfilling of the conditions he has set forth, such a one is a part of the Church. No further affiliation is needed. I am not suggesting that any leave any affiliation they presently belong to or they feel that the Lord has guided them into to, but rather simply that further affiliations do not directly affect ones standing before the Lord,……..unless of course they have received direct revelation from the Lord concerning such affiliations and are refusing to comply with such demands. I only say that strictly as a possibility, not a probability.

I personally feel that most denominational affiliations give root to party spirit, and as such should be avoided….’by me’ with the light God has granted to me thus far in my walk with Him. I speak for no one else or their walk with the Lord. Let me emphasize, that I do NOT feel it my calling to tell anyone to leave any affiliation they are in unless it is obvious that it is not part of the Christian Church. ( no denomination intended) That is between them and their God.

 

[BobRyan]

There are only two moral possibilities. Either there is love and benevolence or selfishness and sin. If in fact one is predestined, logic demands that the other is predestined by default as well.

Would there be any that would like to explain how if in fact God predestined, that is by necessity brought to pass, some to love, that He in fact by necessity must also predestine all others to damnation?

The parent that sees his children on a sinking ship and "arbitrarily selects" the FEW on the boat to pick up and save -- leaving the rest to die at sea HAS not only chosen who will be saved but has ALSO chosen who will remained doomed.

In a court of law that parent would be charged with murdering the chilldren that were lost -- given the fact that the parent claims to have had plenty of time and resources to "Save them all".

This is impossible to miss.

The Arminian future scenario addresses this point completely.

The Calvinist future scenario that I publshed does the same for the Calvinist POV.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jim1999]

It is quite obvious that some desperately need some lessons in systematic theology. Why come to a debate forum empty-headed?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

There are only two moral possibilities. Either there is love and benevolence or selfishness and sin. If in fact one is predestined, logic demands that the other is predestined by default as well.

Would there be any that would like to explain how if in fact God predestined, that is by necessity brought to pass, some to love, that He in fact by necessity must also predestine all others to damnation?

HEREIN IS GOD'S PREDESTINATION CLEAR AND DEFINED: "If you eat ... you shall surely die!"
God predestined that all sinners would be damned. We were all supposed to be sent into eternal damnation because we all are sinners. Not only because the natural wages of sin is death, but because it is the Divine Will of God. God rules over all - even over sin; He is not ruled by it.

It is amazing grace that we are not all forever lost, but saved. Because God so predestined, that is, from eternity decided, to save His elect through Jesus Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

God's foreknowledge doesn't follow the future -- it determines the future.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP:
"If one has accepted the Lord as their Savior by the fulfilling of the conditions he has set forth, "

GE:
If one has accepted the Lord as Savior by the fulfilling of the conditions he has set forth, that one has earned salvation by himself. No one is able to. If one accepted the Lord as Savior it is by the will and irresistable unction of the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ -- by grace and by grace only!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Billwald:
"..in spite of a lack of church affiliation ..."

GE:
"I believe in God ..." goes the Confession; "and in Jesus Christ, ... and in the Holy Spirit ...". Then the Confession goes on (as Karl Barth said) and one cannot stop there, but MUST go on and also confess: "I believe in the Church ...". The creation of the Church is the work of the Holy Spirit through Christ -- inevitable and always.

It surprises no one nobody is perfect; why should it surprise us the Church is not perfect? I believe the Church, just as I believe in God, DESPITE everything contrary to it. The only positive why I believe is God and is contained in Him only. That's why I CANNOT HELP to believe the Church of Jesus Christ -- of "Christ's own", as Paul describes it.

And what is more, that's why I do believe the Church, "growing with the growth of Christ" until its day of glorification in the resurrection.

The Church is the final object of God's love in His election.

 

[BobRyan]

It is quite obvious that some desperately need some lessons in systematic theology. Why come to a debate forum empty-headed?

Cheers,

Jim

Jim aren't you the one that posted that you have no time to actually quote the Word of God when making a point??

 

[donnA]

I can see the op hasn't studied this and given it a lot of thought. Without Jesus all would be going to hell, all would be predestined to hell, God in His infinate wisdom and love rescued some, and as scripture says, He did it for His own purposes.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: We were all supposed to be sent into eternal damnation because we all are sinners. Not only because the natural wages of sin is death, but because it is the Divine Will of God. God rules over all - even over sin; He is not ruled by it.

HP: No problem figuring out where you stand on this one. God is the author of all sin. What a most wicked blight to paint upon our Loving God.

God is not willing that any should perish. How could this be so if in fact He is the author of sin and sin is nothing more than the product of Divine decree?

Your logic is paramount to one building a sandcastle on the beach and then taking a stick out to punish and destroy it for being what your own creative powers made it to be.

Sovereignty does not equate to absurdity.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: The parent that sees his children on a sinking ship and "arbitrarily selects" the FEW on the boat to pick up and save -- leaving the rest to die at sea HAS not only chosen who will be saved but has ALSO chosen who will remained doomed.

In a court of law that parent would be charged with murdering the children that were lost -- given the fact that the parent claims to have had plenty of time and resources to "Save them all".

HP: Excellent illustration Bob. What was the Calvinist future scenario POV you published? Did I miss it?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: God's foreknowledge doesn't follow the future -- it determines the future.

HP: Here you are trying to view God’s Infinite foreknowledge by man’s limited perspective, and then place God inside the box you draw. You state that all is determined by necessity if God in fact knows it will come to pass. That is nothing short of pure fatalism, and makes God out to be the author of all evil. That is not the picture Scripture or reason paints of our God.

Why could not God foreknow matters of perfect choice? What is about your understanding of God that would limit His foreknowledge only to things of necessity?

 

[Brother Bob]

GE: God's foreknowledge doesn't follow the future -- it determines the future.

That makes about as much sense as falling off a log backwards. If God foreknows of sin then He determined that sin. Naaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: That makes about as much sense as falling off a log backwards. If God foreknows of sin then He determined that sin. Naaaaaaaaaaa

HP: Not hard for a just man to detect a fly in the soup especially when it involves the character of our Loving God.

I will never forget a sermon I heard by a local Baptist preacher, (at one time one of the fastest growing churches in a large metropolitan area in the heart of the Bible belt, (now an evangelist,) that stated from the pulpit, “God caused Adam to sin.” Brother, that opened my eyes.

I brought it to the attention of some of his peers, but to my knowledge, not one would publically set the record straight.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Donna: God in His infinate wisdom and love rescued some,

HP: God is Infinite in ALL His attributes, including that of being Just.

 

[Rippon]

Proverbs 16:4

The Lord has prepared everything for His purpose -- even the wicked for the day of disaster .

John 17:12

While I was with them , I was protecting them by Your name that You have given Me . I guarded them and not one of them is lost , except the son of destruction , so that the Scripture may be fulfilled .

Acts 1:25

to take the place in this apostolic service that Judas left to go to his own place .



Romans 9:22

And what if God , desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known , endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction ?

Romans 11:7

What then ? Israel did not find what it was looking for , but the elect did find it . The rest were hardened .

2 Corinthians 11:15

So it is no great thing if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness . Their destiny will be according to their works .

Philippines 1:28

not being frightened in any way by your opponents . This isevidence of their destruction , but of your deliverance -- and this is from God .

1 Thessalonians 5:9

For God did not appoint us to wrath , but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ .

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way . For [ that day ] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed , the son of destruction .

1 Peter 2:8

A stone that cause men to stumble , and a rock that trips them up .

They stumble by disobeying the message ; they were destined for this .

2 Peter 2:3

In their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words . Their condemnation , [ pronounced ] long ago , is not idle , and their destruction does not sleep .

2 Peter 2:12

But these people , like irrational animals -- creatures of instinct born to be caught and destroyed -- speak blasphemies about things they don't understand , and in their destruction they too will be destroyed .

2 Peter 3:7

But by the same word the present heavens and earth are held in store for fire , being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men .

Jude 4

For certain men , who were designated for this judgment long ago , have come in by stealth ; they are ungodly , turning the grace of our God into promiscuity and denying our only Master and Lord , Jesus Christ .

Jude 13

wild waves of the sea , foaming up their shameful deeds ; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever !


( all passages are from the HCSB )

 

[Brother Bob]

He is a God that is Omniscience and is everywhere. Everlasting to Everlasting. He know the end from the beginning. He saw Esau sell his birthright before Esau was ever born. So because he foreknows does not mean He causes it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rippon: (all passages are from the HCSB )

HP: A fine example of several other fine reasons to utilize the KJV.