predestnation vs free will

Hmmm. Sounds like free will to me. You have a choice to make - live according to your own will or repent and live according to God's will. Your choice.

 

The same way I love a God who does not save my best friend, or allows my mother to die of cancer, who allows His chosen emissary (Paul) to be stoned and left for dead, who allows Peter to be crucified upside down, and so on. The point is, God knows what He's doing and His choices are the best choices. His choices are not subject to my judgement or my perception of what is fair.

 

Glorybound,

If after we have been called, have the spirit imparted into us.(no "free will" there)

we do have a will to "disagree or continue" within the process of Sanctification and many choose to live by the laws determined by our own "self-righteousness".

yet the spirit within us is searching to return to its father.
we have Gods law and satan haunting us.
we also have the holy spirit and his influences towards us.

things can become very confusing and complicated.

it simply become a matter of our will and Gods will. and who has the greater influence.


Me2

 

npetreley,

Your examples, though extremely hard to take, are not as difficult to stomach as God punishing someone we love in the fires and torments of hell forever simply (put it in the best Calvinistic light) because He chose not to save them.

While I agree that the Bible clearly shows that God elects to salvation. I also see clearly that God holds man responsible for his actions. Just because we don't understand how they can both be true doesn't make either one or the other false.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

-- God knows all that will ever happen - man has a free will to exercise choices. These are not mutually exclusive facts -- Christ4Kildare

Yes the end is fixed - but the means to get there is not - God knows all the routes, and actively closes those which He wills us not to take as is His sovereign right!

But that still leaves many many routes open, which man must choose to tread, MAN is responsible for his actions.

God MAY allow evil - but it is MAN who does it!
MAN causes evil to happen, God makes it GOOD!

npet as to your friend - he could've been saved, but someone who interacted with him failed - failed to let God lead him properly so as to bring your friend to salvation - it might not be someone who is alive who failed - what might have caused everyone to be saved that you know might have been your mother, but perhaps she chose to do things that would give her cancer rather then evangelize on a certain day.

All too often we hear stories of super-preachers who are born again - not because of some common everyday occurence - but an unusual response to a situation that calls for faith

healing Saul who came to kill him and his brethren

preaching a sermon to an almost empty church when everyone was snowed in

sitting orphans down to an empty table

There are thousands of stories known and unknown where a person, triggered a change in a person who went on to change the world. God has a plan to save every single person alive right now - and if we would only follow it; if only we could.

 

God is everywhere at all times, and knows all things of all time, and has all power, agreed?

From that standpoint, allow me to ramble...

God is not ruled by the laws of what we call "time" and "space". He exists at all times and in all places simutaniously. He also has all knowledge, of everything be it past, present, or future (but these are the one and the same to God). Are you with me so far?

God already knew before He created the world that Adam and Eve would fall, and He had already set forth His plan to redeem manknid through His own sacrifice. God also already knew who would, and who would not, accept His sacrifice and the redemption that it brings.

But, even though God already knows this, He plays His cards close to His vest (in other words, He hasn't shared that information with us). So where does that leave us?

We are to proclaim the gospel to every creature in hope of reaching those who will accept Jesus Christ. Not everyone who will accept Him will do so the first time they hear the gospel, or the second, or the third... We just don't know. We can't look at a person and say, "You are not of the elect," because only God knows who they are, and who they will be.

Now, does that boil down to predestination, or free will? I don't really care which it can be defined as. All I know is this is what the word of God tells me.

As to the examples listed above, let me add one of my own. My sister died July 2, 1998. She was not saved. Although I blamed God at first, I now know that I was wrong. How? True, it was God that allowed her to die. True, He allowed her to die lost in her sins. But she had had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ (I had witnessed to her, and she had several Christian friends), so who was to blame? Did God single her out to go to hell? No, He gave her ample opportunity to accept His free gift. The blame lies squarely on her shoulders. Yes, it saddens me to know that I will never see her again, but I can still praise the Lord for His holiness and His righteous judgement.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

We all have free will to believe and repent. It is God’s will that all come to repentance. But because of free will, not all come to repentance.


2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Notice the many scriptures of those who believe. It says whosoever (free will) believeth. He that believes and he that does not believe shows free will.
Here’s just a few scriptures.

jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life

acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

 

I think the problem is with the way you're putting it. The fact that we love someone implies they somehow "deserve" to be saved more than someone we don't love. So if you take out that factor and the other "biased" language, what you get is roughly this:

"Your examples, though extremely hard to take, are not as difficult to stomach as God punishing someone in the fires and torments of hell forever because He chose not to save them."

That pretty much takes the sting out of what you're saying, doesn't it? All it says is that God chose not to save them. We are not privy to the reasons why, and we trust He had good reason. It's not so difficult to take in that light, is it? So why do we assume we "know better" when it comes to someone we love?

I agree 100%, but I don't think it's all that difficult to understand how they can both be true.

 

You are correct to point out my bias. Reformed theology takes one view to the extreme, interpreting everything exclusively through God's sovereignty.

But even removing my bias doesn't remove the difficulty of seeing God loving, fair or just if He denies the possibility of salvation to some, yet grant it to others. It would not matter if the person was my child or Adolph Hitler. You get elected to heaven; I get elected to hell. Where is the justice, mercy, or love in that? It doesn't square with the Bible. Look at these verses.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Revelation 20:11,12 NIV

If some of us are destined to Hell regardless of what we do, why go through the motions of judging? We are responsible for our choices, including the choice to believe in the Son of God.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18 NIV

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

from Tim 2's post

But God, who is rich n mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace are ye saved] Ephesians 2:4-5

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life [Romans 5:10]

The elect were, in time, enemies of God until Christ came and did the atonement, reconciling them with God thru His death on the cross. There is no elect child of God who was not under condemnation, yet even if they were enemies God loved them and determined to make them His children.

Many, especially those of the Arminian doctrines and of the Universal Atonement doctrine speak as if they have the "right" to eternal bliss which rights are violated if God does not give them a chance at it. God is under NBLICATION to anyone of His enemies - fallen humankind, which includes those He loved with an everlasting love.

Now, if God is able to love even those who are His enemies with a love that made Him put on human flesh and bear the punishment that His own law demands which no man is able to bear, why should not He be able to command us to love our enemies ? And if we really have the Spirit of God that gives us understanding, and agrees with our spirit that we are the children of God, why shouldn't we be able to love such a God ?

We love Him, because He first loved us.

 

I go to court and you go to court both guilty of murder. I get my sentence erased and you get the electric chair FOREVER. There is no way you can convince me that this God of your theology is just or loving. No person in his or her right mind could accept what you are suggesting God is from another human being.

Suppose a PERSON could create thinking, feeling, beings. This person then decides deny some of these beings the ability to accept a gift that will change them and make them acceptable to him. He also decides not to offer them the gift but to punish them forever.

We would not hesitate to call this person cruel.


But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. Romans 2:5-8 NIV

The Bible clearly says that God elects unto salvation. But what that means in not found in the Calvinistic answer of God choosing the elect unto heaven and to hell with the rest. We are sorted based on what we have done.

Eternal life is a gift, not a right for whoever will believe.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." John 3:16-17 NIV


In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Hey, I have not had the chance to read all the posts. I would just like to see what the arminian stance is on the following verse that I believe deals with predestination, found in John 6:37

Who are the ones that are given to Jesus by the Father?

In Christ,
Bobby

 

Originally posted by Southern:
Hey, I have not had the chance to read all the posts. I would just like to see what the arminian stance is on the following verse that I believe deals with predestination, found in John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Who are the ones that are given to Jesus by the Father?

In Christ,
Bobby
__________________________________________________

Well, those given to Him are, indeed, the Elect.
But, who, exactly, are the elect?
1Peter 1:2a:
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.
We have such a great God that He foreknew in eternity past who the, "Whosoever will" would be and that is why the Book of Life could be written so long ago.
Those so written in the Book of Life are indeed GIVEN to and to be KEPT BY the Lord Jesus, our Great High Priest.
NOTE:
The word is PRE DESTINATION
Not PRE DETERMINATION
All this is as I see scripture IMHO. I don't usually engage in this debate; I realize the strong feelings on this issue. I love all Calvanists, they are brothers.
Love in Christ,
Charles

 

There is no injustice in sending one of us to hell. The injustice is that one of us would get elected to heaven. True justice would send us both to hell.

If we both deserve to go to hell, but God elects to show mercy to one of us, does the other somehow deserve to go to hell any less because he wasn't shown mercy? Of course not. So where's the injustice? It's not there.

If God chooses to show mercy to one person and not another, is God no longer a merciful God? That's not what the scripture says. God says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy." It's not up to us to say to whom God should be merciful.

In another post, you imply that the injustice is that the non-elect are denied the opportunity to be saved. IMO, this betrays an incorrect view of man's default condition and salvation. There is no such thing as a person who wants to be saved but cannot be saved because he is not among the elect.

 

Are you sure about that? I think the example of the Israelites fleeing Egypt provide the perfect example.

You see, the Israelites were following Moses through the Red Sea. The Egyptians that followed wanted to be saved (cross the Red Sea). God didn't want them to be saved so he killed them before they made it.

For the record, this is sarcasm.

 

The problem I have with the view that God elects some to salvation and leaves others to the destruction they deserve is that in affirming such a thing you cannot but logically come to the conclusion that God created some people that He will torture in the fires of Hell forever just because He wants to.

That is cruel and sadistic.

That is not the Biblical presentation of God. There is more to election than we understand and Calvin got it wrong.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Amen Tim too!

To say that someone cannot go to Heaven because they were not elected is false doctrine straight from the pits of Hell. It sounds like the devils version of salvation, "sorry, but you were not chosen to go to Heaven, sorry, but Jesus did not die for you, he died for me."

Sorry, but God said, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

The doctrine of unconditional election is hard to swallow. Why God chose to operate this way we don't know. There is at least one reason I can think of: because He is God and we are not. These truths are not man made doctrines but are found in Scripture. You are misrepresenting Calvinism when you say that 'God created some people that He will torture in the fires of Hell forever just because He wants to... Don't we all deserve to go to hell since we all went astray? Those who are and will be in Hell are not there 'just because God wants it to' but because they wanted to!! God wants us all to repent and come to the knowledge of God. He commands everyone everywhere to repent!

Reason thinks that man is mocked by an impossible commandment, whereas we should maintain that by this means man is admonished and awakened to see his own impotence. So the words of the law are spoken, not to assert the power of the will, but to illuminate the blindness of reason, so that it may see that its own light is nothing, and the power of the will is nothing. Paul says: “By the law is knowledge of sin.” By the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do; that is, that he may know his sin, not that he may believe that he has any strength. One could argue that “perfect behavior is the responsibility of all men, but it does not follow that sinful man has the capacity to do so.” It remains absurd to reason’s judgment that God, who is just and good, should require of ‘free-will’ impossibilities; and that, though ‘free-will’ can not will good, He should yet lay sin to its charge; and that, by not giving the Spirit, He should act so severely and mercilessly as to harden, or allow to be hardened.
Reason will insist that these are not the acts of a good and merciful God. They are too far beyond her grasp; and she cannot bring herself to believe that the God who acts and judges thus is good; she wants to shut out faith, and to see, and feel, and understand, how it is that He is good and not cruel. But faith and the Spirit judge otherwise, believing that God is good even though he should destroy all men.

Hope this helps

 

Yes we do, we all are sinners and deserve to go to hell. But, praise God, Jesus, paid that sin debt for not just one, but for ALL who would believe.

I disagree, no one who knows what hell is wants to be there.

Am I getting you wrong Felix, but are you for or against “free will?”

 

There is no other conclusion to come to. Some Calvinists want to dress it up a bit and say that we all deserve Hell but God chose to save some of us, "the elect."

The fact is, if God created all of us and offers salvation to some but not to others He has created some of us to be tortured in Hell.

In the love of Christ,
Tim