predestnation vs free will

If you are going to harp about me pulling things out of context why do you insist that I say in this passage the "who" are those God's has elected unto salvation? I have already said that I believe the Bible shows God elects unto salvation. John does not use the word elect in any of his writings. Do you want me to go out of the immediate context to stick the word elect here? As I have said there are better verses for showing God electing unto salvation.

From the context the "who" are those the Father gives to Jesus.

Jews are one specific group of people and Gentiles are... EVERYBODY ELSE!?!?!?</font>[/QUOTE]Let me just make an observation. You, who would have God chosing some and chosing to damn some, have no problem accurately determining that the ALLs that have to do with the sinfulness of man apply to every man in every time. I have yet to see you point to one of these instances and cry CONTEXT. It appears that CONTEXT is a sword that you only draw when it serves your purposes.

npetreley, Southern, and pinoybaptist,

Thank you for the challenging discussion. I believe that this could go on forever and we are at page seven. I am out of this discussion. Happy Thanksgiving and God bless.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

As I said earlier, it's all Augustinian claptrap. I don't even know why we're having this debate....

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

I suspect it isn't as simple as we are capable of perceiving it, but I agree that there is something that exists that we can think of as being the "permissive will" of God. However, this does NOT get anyone out of the uncomfortable position of having God choose to save some, and not to save others.

One can take this back to the first sin to illustrate the point. If God knew Adam would sin if God allowed satan into the garden to deceive Eve, then God is at the very least indirectly responsible for the sin. God, knowing the outcome in advance, could easily have prevented satan from entering the garden. But He didn't prevent satan from entering the garden. Why not?

IMO, one can get to the answer starting from many places in the Bible, but here's one of my favorite starting points:

As a side-note, the word translated "prepared" in "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" is better translated "perfected". The word "vessels" is the same word translated "vessel" in "vessel for honor and another for dishonor".

So the idea here is "What if God makes vessels unto dishonor, perfected for destruction? What's that to you?"

Why would God do such a thing? The answer is right there in the text, and in countless places in the OT and NT. God wants us to know His ENTIRE character, which means He wants to display His wrath and power to us (the objects of His mercy), to make these things known to us. God can't do that unless He has some vessels perfected for destruction.

 

Just because you're right doesn't mean they have to listen to YOU . . .

 

Evidently....

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Didn't He give Adam and Eve the right to choose? What makes it any different today?