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Premillennialism, Amillennialism, and Post-?

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by UUall:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I was a pre-trib for 50 years people telling me "If the pretribualtion rapture is what God is going to do, why didn't Jesus say anything about it?
I found it in Matthew 24:31

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Ask any 3rd grader to read the above scripture.

Then test them. Will the elect be gathered before the tribulation or after? I bet they would all give the correct answer. Whats your answer Ed? </font>
The wonderful truth is that most of the time - as in this case with Matt 24 - the battle to present the correct doctrine is won by simply pointing out the obvious in the chapter that even a child would get.

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues &lt;== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end


Matt 24
14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Not until the Gospel has gone into the entire world - will Christ come - and this was spoken by Christ pre-cross and then published by Matt post-cross - as a "future event". The Gospel going into all the world - an event we "Still" wait for.. This scope applies to “all mankind” not just Jews.


Matt 24
15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;

17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
Where was “the holy place” in the days of Christ – was it outside of the city in the burial grounds?

Jer 31
38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 ""And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.''
Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
The persecution of Christians by the Pagan Roman empire - and then persecution of Christians by the Holy Roman Empire - "The Dark Ages" - represents centuries of killing Christians - unprecidented in extent and length of time - in all of history.

This non-SDA link shows a chronology of the Matt 24 events that DOES have the 1260 years of the dark ages matched with the expected tribulation mentioned in Matt 24.
http://www.bibleexplained.com/Gospels/Matt/mt21-25/Mt24.htm


Matt 24:

23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 ""So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
The visibility of cloud-to-could lightning - from one end of heaven to the other - is the "comparison" made with the 2nd coming.

The coming is in the clouds - just as the lightning and just as the "signs".


Matt 24:

29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
These Matt 24 events are recorded in the encyclopedia. First we note that the 1260 years of the dark ages ends in the 1700's. Then we notice the Lisbon earthquake, 1755, the dark day in the Northwestern US, 1780, and the "falling" of the stars, 1833 – all follow the end of that tribulation period.

Historically this is known as “the Dark Day”. It was not world wide but it was recorded here.

The remarkable Dark Day of May 19, 1780, is described by Samuel Williams of Harvard, The professor relates... "between the hours of ten and eleven a.m., and continued until the middle of the next night,... Candles were lighted up in houses; ... the birds having sung their evening songs, disappeared, and became silent;... the fowls retired to roost; ... the cocks were crowing all around, as at the break of day; ... objects could not be distinguished but at a very little distance; and everything bore the appearance and gloom of night." -Memoirs of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences [through 1783], vol.1 pp. 234,235.)”
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
I'm a baptist and always considered figuring out the sequence of events of the end times to be of little value.
Still you have to wonder why so much of Christ's teaching and the NT teaching is centered on end-time events.

Obviously we can not change history nor can we reshape God's plans for the future - but He sure is focused on getting this message across.

Look at Matt 24 in its exquisite detail that many must reject just to hold to their traditions.

1Cor 15, Rev 19-21 etc all of them wonderful sequences "to be rejected" by those whose traditions "don't allow for the text to be true as it reads".

Having bend twist and rework massive sections of a chapter just so you can accomodate a tradtion's bending of one small text is "a clue" for the saints.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
I can walk through the sequence of Matt 24 and Rev 19-21 saying "yep that is exactly the sequence I have been taught".

Ed walks through them and at the end says "but of course I have to find a way to rework the sequence we see in these entire chapters".

And that is "the difference".
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
What sequence do you find in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2?
1 Thessalonians chapter 4?
Revelation 1-21?
2 Corinthians chapter 15?
2 Peter chapter 3?

I find support in all these locations
for my eschatology.

Here is my evangelical presentation of
the JUDGEMENT of GOD:
---------------------------------------------
Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.
"

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Still you have to wonder why so much of Christ's teaching and the NT teaching is centered on end-time events.

Obviously we can not change history nor can we reshape God's plans for the future - but He sure is focused on getting this message across.

Look at Matt 24 in its exquisite detail that many must reject just to hold to their traditions.

1Cor 15, Rev 19-21 etc all of them wonderful sequences "to be rejected" by those whose traditions "don't allow for the text to be true as it reads".

Having bend twist and rework massive sections of a chapter just so you can accomodate a tradtion's bending of one small text is "a clue" for the saints.
I agree that scriptures spend a lot of time on eschatological issues. But I do not believe the intent was to provide clues for believers to figure out a sequence of events.

You are welcome to engage in that exercise as many Christians have done through the ages. I just believe it has little value.
 

UUall

New Member
I was a pre-trib for 50 years people telling me "If the pretribualtion rapture is what God is going to do, why didn't Jesus say anything about it?
I found it in Matthew 24:31
Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Opps Ed,
Ya hit another snafu. Youve got the elect being raptured before the tribulation.

Matthew 24:21-22
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Here we find the trib being shortened for the elects sake.

Seems youre gonna have to invent 2 "elects"

This reminds me of a song

5 resurrections
4 day of the Lords
3 four winds blowing
2 sets of Gods elect
And a partridge in a pear tree
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
UUall: //Ya hit another snafu. Youve got the elect being raptured before the tribulation.

Matthew 24:21-22
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Here we find the trib being shortened for the elects sake.//

No problem. These elect are in heaven.
Anyway, if it wrere not for the ending of
the tribulation period for the sake of the
saints in heaven, there would be no one left
to populate and repopulate the Millilnnial
Messanic Kingdom.

See also this topic:
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3544/5.html
about the Millinnilal Messanic Kingdom.
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
UUall: //Seems youre gonna have to invent 2 "elects"//

I don't need to invent anything.
God does have two groups of Church elect saints:

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769):
Give none offence, neither to the JEWS,
nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD.

There are Jewish Israeli elect saint church-members
and there are mostly gentile* Church Age redeemed, born-again,
scantificed-by-the-blood-of-Jesus, elect saint church-members

*- includes some Messanic Jews

On the scale of eternity, Where God dwells, these
two groups are one. It is only from our lilmitedl-time
point of view that there are the two groups.
 

UUall

New Member
No problem. These elect are in heaven.
Anyway, if it wrere not for the ending of
the tribulation period for the sake of the
saints in heaven, there would be no one left
to populate and repopulate the Millilnnial
Messanic Kingdom.
Ok Ed
So your saying that the elect that is up in heaven are really looking forward to havin people here so they can reproduce. And God knows that this is gonna make you giddy, so he shortens the trib period just for you. Ok, you think your part of the elect. Why are you looking forward to that Ed?
 
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