Premillennialism, Amillennialism, and Post-?

[DeafPosttrib]

I am ex-premill, now am an amill. Recommend book - 'A Case for Amillennialism' by Kim Riddlebarger.

But, Bible comes FIRST before books.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by DeclareHim:
No Postmillennialist? Has this position waned?

Have gone from Dispy/pre-trib/pre-mil to Postmillenial/partial-preterist.

Postmillenialism, though it has waned in past years, seems to be making a comeback (primarily in the Reformed community).

 

[Brother James]

Went from being dipensational pre-mill to a-mill. Mat.13 and 1Cor.15.

 

[Ed Edwards]

TaterTot: //I am really surprised to see so many amils.//

According to the polls i've conducted and many personal
observations:

The BB a-millinnial folk are a very vocal minority.

DeclareHim: //No Postmillennialist? Has this position waned? //

This un-Baptist and un-American and inhuman position died
at the council of Nicea in 325AD. The Christians got in bed
with the government of the Roman Empire and JESUS DID NOT COME.
1,000 years later in 1325AD, Jesus still didn't come. Of course,
nobody was calling the 1,000 year long DARK AGE the
Millinnial Messanic reign.

Edwards:
//However, Baptists do say you aught to 'work out your own salvation
with fear and trembling' - that you aught to figure out your
own Biblical eschatology by studying the Holy Bible with
the best teacher of all: The Holy Spirit within you.//

Hillclimber:
//Yes they say that, but they never do it, else they would no longer
be Baptists.//

If it bothers you that a Baptist would do that (and I agree, not
many really do) -- be very worried - I studied these passages for
years, read a few newspapers, looked at some parinoid conspiracy
theories - the Bible was the best - a Book of HOPE, truly God's
most Holy Written Word. Bottom line: Jesus is going to come and
get me BEFORE THE 'TRIBULATION PERIOD', AKA: 70th Week of Daniel,
AKA: Time of Jacob's Trouble, etc.

Please note i was speaking of eschatology only,
not salvic issues. I said: //... you aught to figure out your
own Biblical eschatology by studying the Holy Bible with
the best teacher of all: The Holy Spirit within you//

Tom Butler: //my pastor asked me to find a clear,
unequivocal scripture verse that could not be interpreted
any other way but pre-trib. Searched for days, couldn't find it.//

Come talk to us again when you have spent 90% to all of your non-secular working,
non-witnessing time, non-sleeping time FOR FIFTEEN YEARS. Come, on
a handful of days ain't gonna get you nowhere.

Tom Butler: //I'm historic pre-mil, but the a-mil view is one I could embrace.
... //

That is confusing??? The only difference between 'historic pre-mill'
and 'a-mil' is that in historic pre-mill a literal/physical Second
Advent of Christ is believed in, in the a-mill the Second Advent
of Christ can be literal but spiritual or just plain a spiritual
experience we each 'suffer' when we croak.


Brother James: //Went from being dipensational pre-mill
to a-mill. Mat.13 and 1Cor.15.//

Strange, to sell your birthright HOPE in the Pretribualtion Rapture
for a bowl of misunderstood parables beans.

I went from being a pretribualtion rapturist, pre-millinnial physical 2ed Comingist
to a hard-core pretrib. Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thess 2:1&3 speak of
the Church Age, Pretribulation rapture (CAUGHT UP, GATHERING of the Saints,
FALLING AWAY from this earth, etc).

 

[Chemnitz]

One thing I have never understood about the millenialist position is why is 1000 literal when all the other numbers in Revelation are figurative?

Church age, smurch age. Jesus is answering a question concerning the signs pointing to the end of time in Matt 24. All of the signs given point to the end of time not the signs leading up to some undefined tribulation period. Christ never said He would snatch us up before we faced tribulation aka suffering, otherwise none of us would be here now as we face various forms of persecution on a daily basis.

Our birthright hope is not in some pretrib rapture but in eternal life in Christ.
If your hope is in some pretrib rapture then your faith is seriously misplaced.

 

[StefanM]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
One thing I have never understood about the millenialist position is why is 1000 literal when all the other numbers in Revelation are figurative?

Church age, smurch age. Jesus is answering a question concerning the signs pointing to the end of time in Matt 24. All of the signs given point to the end of time not the signs leading up to some undefined tribulation period. Christ never said He would snatch us up before we faced tribulation aka suffering, otherwise none of us would be here now as we face various forms of persecution on a daily basis.

Our birthright hope is not in some pretrib rapture but in eternal life in Christ.
If your hope is in some pretrib rapture then your faith is seriously misplaced.

I don't believe the number is necessarily literal (though it could be). I think it means a long period of time.

I deny the pre-trib rapture, so I'm with you there.

Remember not to castigate all forms of premillennialism when really the beef is with pre-trib, dispensational premillennialism.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
...
Church age, smurch age. ...

These are what i'm calling "the church age"
or Gentile Age:

Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks
against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven
him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil,
the harvest is the end of the age,
and the reapers are the angels.

Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned
in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age.
The angels will come forth, separate the
wicked from among the just,

Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives,
the disciples came to Him privately, saying,
"Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"

Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have
commanded you; and lo, I am with you always,
even to the end of the age." Amen.

Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now
in this time--houses and brothers and sisters
and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."

Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age
marry and are given in marriage.
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry
nor are given in marriage;

1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the
disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish
the wisdom of this world?

1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who
are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age,
nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers ofthis age knew;
for had they known, they would not have crucified
the Lord of glory.


1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool
that he may become wise.

2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded,
who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel
of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God,
should shine on them.

Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age,
according to the will of our God and Father,

Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might
and dominion, and every name that is named,
not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age
not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain
riches but in the living God, who gives us
richly all things to enjoy.

Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and
worldly lusts, we should live soberly,
righteously, and godly in the present age,


Gentile Age:

Luke 21:24 (nKJV):
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword,
and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles
until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This excerpt from the Mount Olivet Discourse
parallels Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
All are the MOD speaking of Jesus, when
He predicted what would happen in the future.

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I went from being a pretribualtion rapturist, pre-millinnial physical 2ed Comingist
to a hard-core pretrib. Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thess 2:1&3 speak of
the Church Age, Pretribulation rapture (CAUGHT UP, GATHERING of the Saints,
FALLING AWAY from this earth, etc).

All of which is founded on the expectation of the ultimate failure of the Gospel.

No thanks. That's a 'bowl of beans' that you can keep.

 

[Chemnitz]

These are what i'm calling "the church age"
or Gentile Age:

Which would be nice if that is what Jesus calls it but he doesn't. The greek doesn't even really back you up either considering in just Mat 12 you have one word meaning present time and one word meaning future, both unfortunately mistranslated as age.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Chemnitz: //Church age, smurch age.//

I'll call it the 'Time of the Gentiles' a phrase from
the Bible.

Chemnitz: //esus is answering a question
concerning the signs pointing to the end of time in Matt 24.//

I respectfully disagree. He is answering three questions:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed.
2. What will be the SIGN (singular) of the
end of the AGE ('aeon' not 'cosmos')
3. what will be the SIGN of Christ's Coming

His answers to these questions are clearly
dispensational, pre-millinnial, and pre tribualtional.

Somebody told me in the late 1980s that Jesus never spake
of the pretribulatin rapture (gathering) of the saints.
But when you read Matthew 24 in light of the questions
the disciples ask and the answers Jesus gives - clearly
a pretriublation gathering (AKA: rapture, caught up, falling
away /from earth/, etc)

Chemnitz: //Our birthright hope is not in some pretrib rapture
but in eternal life in Christ If your hope is in some pretrib
rapture then your faith is seriously misplaced.//

I respectfully disagree. 'Right' is the opposite of 'hope'.

1 Cornithians 13:13 speaks of Faith, hope, and charity.
'Hope' is something different from 'faith'.
My faith is in Jesus, the Messiah; I hope I get caught up in
the pretribualtion rapture. I have every RIGHT (thorugh MEssiah JEsus)
to attend His eternal kingdom. I hope (but have no right to)
being in the pretribualtion rapture. I hope when I'm raptured I'm with
some lost folk. I'll grab one in each hand as I rise (AKA: begin to
fall away from this earth). I figure the first 30,000 feet or so I'll
relate the plan of salvation. At 30K feet I'll offer an invitation:
believe in Jesus or you gonna fall, Guys

Anyway, Jesus is going to come and get me:
1. when I die
2. before the Tribulation Period (which is different from
'tribualtion', 'suffering', and 'velcro').
One or the other, my Jesus is going to come and get me.

Chemnitz: //All of the signs given point to the end of time
not the signs leading up to some undefined tribulation period.//

I respectfully disagree.
The apostles asked for ONE SIGN, not a bunch.
The signs in Matthew 24:4-14 are signs of the
Times of the Gentiles (AKA: as AGe of Grace, Church AGe, etc).
There are no signs given for the pretribulation rapture neither
by Jesus nor by any of his Bible writers.
The ONE SIGN of the Second Advent of Jesus in power and glory to
destroy the antichrist and set up a physical Millinnial Messianc
Kingdom is THE TRIBULATION PERIOD.

 

[Ed Edwards]

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

[Chemnitz]

Ed it is the end of all things not just some random premill rapture, which reminds me nothing ever comes up concerning this supposed millenium. Again, you can not base a doctrine on a faulty translation. Christ through out the whole thing is describing the last days, which includes the destruction of the temple, the tribulation followed by his return and the gathering of all people. Just because there is a list of things does not mean first this, then this, then this, and then that. All of it can be running concurrently.

 

[Daughter]

I have yet to form my theology on this. What reliable resources are there that I may read about these teachings?

 

[Chemnitz]

I recommend "Jerusalem and Parousia" by Jeffery Gibbs, "Revelation" by Louis Brighton, "Things to come and not to come" Aaron Plueger, and "End Times Delusion" by Steve Wohlberg.

 

[Daughter]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
"End Times Delusion" by Steve Wohlberg.

I've recently read this one! Thanks for the other recommendations, I'll check em out

 

[Charles Meadows]

Hey Chemnitz,

I had contemplated buying Brighton's book. Could you tell me a little about it? Is it written on an academic level, interacting with noncanonical sources and original languages? Is it amill? Is it conservative?

Thanks!

 

[Brother James]

I'm taking a cue from Lahaye and writing a book.
I'm calling it "Still Here".

 

[Chemnitz]

It is written on an academic level in that it does discuss Greek grammar in some detail. But it can be read by a lay person, our church recently taught a class based on his commentary. It is most definitely amill, I took a class from Dr. Brighton on Revelation while in seminary and the only thing he had to say about premill-dispensationalism is that it is a "alice in wonderland fairytale". Yes, it is very conservative and yes he does deal with the apocryphal books' views on the last days.

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Brother James:
I'm taking a cue from Lahaye and writing a book.
I'm calling it "Still Here".

You might like one of these:

Right Behind: A Parody of Last Days' Goofiness

Supergeddon: A Really Big Geddon

 

[Ed Edwards]

Chemnitz: //It is most definitely amill, I took a class from Dr. Brighton
on Revelation while in seminary and the only thing he had
to say about premill-dispensationalism is that it is
a "alice in wonderland fairytale".//

Which type of 'amill'?
A-millinnial itself considers the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom
as a non-physical/spiritual thing.
But then you have to deal with the Second Advent of Jesus:
is it literal/physical or something spiritual?
This divides the whole amill crowd into two camps.
Probably one poster who called the Second Advent of Jesus
a literal/spiritual matter may join us soon, I hope.

Meanwhile, can you be a bit kinder to my position which
I've developed BY MYSELF over a 54-year period?
BTW, I prefer people who will discuss concept of
pretrib/premill/dispensationalism NOT that of someone else.
Feel free to express your own learnings.
I'm a Baptist and we teach each other to read/study/evalutate
the Bible on our own - not to take the teachings of others without
reading/studying/evaluating them IN THE LIGHT OF THE SCRIPTURE.

Another question, does Dr. Brighton fairly explain other viewpoints
or only rail against them?

Daughter: //I have yet to form my theology on this. What reliable resources
are there that I may read about these teachings? //

Stay right here. In the next couple of years I may have time
to cover the whole subject. Howerver, I give many details but most
of those who debate me will only debate my TITLE, my Scriptural details.
I have no problem defining the terms we are talking about,
others want to figure everybody knows what they are talking about when
they don't know themselves???

Chemnitz: //Ed it is the end of all things not just some random premill
rapture, which reminds me nothing ever comes up concerning
this supposed millenium.//

Again, I respectfully disagree. Eschatology is about what
happens just before what you believe is the 'end of all things'
and for ages afterword. Sorry, but the world does not come to
a smashiing end at the second advent of Jesus.
BTW, there are many scriptues about the Millennial Messanic Kingdom
both in the Old Testament and in the new Testament. Just last Sunday
I was studying a scripture in Isaiah Chapter 2.
IT speaks of the Millennial Messanic Kingdom of Jesus.

Chemnitz: //Again, you can not base a doctrine
on a faulty translation.//

Woah, that hurt I am on record on this Board as being one
who NEVER bases any major part of my Doctrine on one and only one
verse or the mistranslation of it.

Monergist: //All of which is founded on the expectation
of the ultimate failure of the Gospel.//

Sorry, you cannot dismiss the pretribualtion Rapture HOPE with
one stentence.

Chemnitz: //Christ through out the whole thing
is describing the last days, which includes the destruction
of the temple, the tribulation followed by his return and
the gathering of all people.//

I agree. Wrong order, but I agree with steps.
Here is the correct order:

Christ through out the whole thing
is describing the last days,
which includes the destruction
of the temple, the tribulation followed by his return and
bracketed by the gathering of all people: the just before
the tribulation and the wicked after.

Acts 2:16-17 announce the LAST DAYS of which the O.T. prohet
Joel also spoke. So the last days start on the Day of Pentacost,
33AD (the exact year is debatable) and extend down past the
present to the pretribulation rapture/resurrection of the church.

Armegeddon (Jews would say Harmegeddon) means the final battle
between good and evil. Jesus wins it hands down.
The term 'Harmegeddon' is composed of 'Har' meaning 'mountain'
and "Megeddo". Megeddo is a valley. What then is
the 'mountain of Megeddo"?

Ezekiel 38 and 39 tell of two (the Modern Jewish Rabbis say)
or one (some Christian premills) final battle where
Gog & Magog come against Yisrarel. God wins the battle.
I beleive also there are two invasions of Gog & Magog.
One will be early on in (maybe just before?) the Tribulation
period. The second will be after the Millinnial Messianic
Kingdom as spoken of in Revelation 20.