Premillennium, Amillennium, Postmillennium

[HankD]

I can't imagine God putting the church, the body and bride of Christ, for which He died, through judgment. If we men are to love our wives as Christ loved the church, surely that means we would never subject our wives to torture if it means anything at all! So how could Christ put His church through the Tribulation???

I think krima, judgment, in 1 Peter 4 simply means discernment in that context.

I was taught that The Tribulation is two parts, The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation (The Wrath of God) adding together to 7 years.
We would not be part of the Wrath of God but perhaps His judgement.

1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

Look at Ananias and Sapphira. I believe they were saved but were also judged worthy of the sin of death with their lie..
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Then there are those who are saved yet so as by fire.

Then there are the warnings to the 7 churches of the Revelation.

This is a part of what has me thinking about the purification and warning of and to the sinning and sleepy Christians before his coming.

I suppose that those sinning Christians who were taught to do so by Jezebel are actually not Christians however "to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication".
Seems they were and as many years as we both have been in the ministry and/or teaching we both no doubt know of what His children are capable.

Right now I am still pre-trib, pre-mill, but I do wonder about this and have made exploratory room in my thinking/praying to go outside the DTS dispensational box (at least as it was when I was going to Calvary University).

Also I do think it entirely possible for the Church to be extraordinarily disciplined/chastised just BEFORE the Rapture with foreshadows of the "beginnings of sorrows" of the Tribulation. I believe either Walvoord or Pentecost held this view (I don't remember which, maybe even someone else).

I do especially appreciate your input JoJ.

 

[HankD]

Could God though not shield us from that wrath, like Israel protected from plagues?

Of course He could, but remember what He did to Israel when they were wandering in the wilderness (The quail, the brazen serpent, etc...) and they angered Him.

 

[HankD]

I think for now I will settle into a view that the LORD will awaken the church before His coming for His own.
Not sure of the logistics/optics.

It may be unpleasant.

As with Israel we (Christendom) are a mixed multitude both at the level of the Church (in general) down to the local churches.

 

[John of Japan]

Could God though not shield us from that wrath, like Israel protected from plagues?

Well of course He could, but that is not in Scripture for the Tribulation.

 

[John of Japan]

The tribulation not being the wrath of God, but persecution of God's elect.

I don't know what you mean here.

 

[John of Japan]

I was taught that The Tribulation is two parts, The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation (The Wrath of God) adding together to 7 years.
We would not be part of the Wrath of God but perhaps His judgement.

To clarify, I don't see a "universal church" in Scripture until it gathers in Heaven. The "church age" to me is the age of local churches, and I think Rev. 2-3 bears that out prophetically.

1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

Look at Ananias and Sapphira. I believe they were saved but were also judged worthy of the sin of death with their lie..
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Well, yes, but v. 32 makes it chastening rather than actual judgment of sin, as if the person were lost. (The two Greek words for "judge" there allow that, I think, having a wider range of meaning than the English word. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1). God chastens His people, not judging them. But the "sin unto death" of Annanias and Sapphira caused God to take them to Heaven to keep the church pure.

Then there are those who are saved yet so as by fire.

I don't see this as being judgment on Christians.

Then there are the warnings to the 7 churches of the Revelation.

I don't see judgment on individual Christians there, only on unsaved heretics.

This is a part of what has me thinking about the purification and warning of and to the sinning and sleepy Christians before his coming.

I suppose that those sinning Christians who were taught to do so by Jezebel are actually not Christians however "to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication".
Seems they were and as many years as we both have been in the ministry and/or teaching we both no doubt know of what His children are capable.

I can't see Jezebel and the other as actually being saved, though as you say we've seen some pretty sad things in the ministry.

Right now I am still pre-trib, pre-mill, but I do wonder about this and have made exploratory room in my thinking/praying to go outside the DTS dispensational box (at least as it was when I was going to Calvary University).

Thinking--meditating--on the Word is always good.

Also I do think it entirely possible for the Church to be extraordinarily disciplined/chastised just BEFORE the Rapture with foreshadows of the "beginnings of sorrows" of the Tribulation. I believe either Walvoord or Pentecost held this view (I don't remember which, maybe even someone else).

I'd be interested in who held this. Personally, I oppose the idea that we can have no revival now, common among dispensationalists and others. Believe it or not, that is actually one reason John R. Rice wrote Bob Jones, Jr., that he would no longer preach at BJU.

I do especially appreciate your input JoJ.

Always glad to interact with you. The last few months have been incredibly busy, but I have a little time nowadays for the BB.

 

[HankD]

To clarify, I don't see a "universal church" in Scripture until it gathers in Heaven. The "church age" to me is the age of local churches, and I think Rev. 2-3 bears that out prophetically.

OK Christendom then.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment (krima) must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Well, yes, but v. 32 makes it chastening rather than actual judgment of sin, as if the person were lost. (The two Greek words for "judge" there allow that, I think, having a wider range of meaning than the English word. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1). God chastens His people, not judging them. But the "sin unto death" of Annanias and Sapphira caused God to take them to Heaven to keep the church pure.

Romans 8:1 katakrima is the superlative of krima.

""to take them to Heaven to keep the church pure" This to me is the essence of Peter's warning that God will purify His church before he takes it home.
If we are not careful anyone of us can be influenced by the lives of unsaved friends and relatives sometimes in our ignorance. These practices and wrong thinking must be corrected.

Admittedly being "changed" as we are snatched away may remove these influences but this does not IMO answer to the warnings of Peter and also the first 3 chapters of the Revelation.

I'd be interested in who held this. Personally, I oppose the idea that we can have no revival now, common among dispensationalists and others. Believe it or not, that is actually one reason John R. Rice wrote Bob Jones, Jr., that he would no longer preach at BJU.

Supposedly this view of a last days revival or awakening (which I believe will be - more than just saying it's possible) was held by many at the beginning of the Great Missionary Movement sustained by either Walvoord or Pentecost - not sure, I'll make an effort to find out.

Last Days Awakening is what I remember. and possible scripture:

Matthew 25
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Thanks - you need not answer John unless you want to do so.

 

[37818]

I don't know what you mean here.

For example, Matthew 24:29, ". . . Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . ." which precedes the outporing of God's wrath (Acts of the Apostles 2:20; Revelation 6:17).

 

[Revmitchell]

So people who try to very poorly make the case against the tribulation period try to very sophomorically misuse every instance of the word tribulation and make it mean t he same thing as the tribulation period.

 

[John of Japan]

For example, Matthew 24:29, ". . . Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . ." which precedes the outporing of God's wrath (Acts of the Apostles 2:20; Revelation 6:17).

I still don't know what you are trying to say in regards to my posts.

 

[John of Japan]

Okay, I blew it. I meant this to be for the thread I just started on Isaiah 9:6-7. So ignore this post, please.

 

[OnlyaSinner]

Personally, I oppose the idea that we can have no revival now, common among dispensationalists and others. Believe it or not, that is actually one reason John R. Rice wrote Bob Jones, Jr., that he would no longer preach at BJU.

Interesting. For the past 30 years I've attended churches (2, the 2nd occasioned by a move) pastored by BJU grads (pre-trib/pre-mil/dispensationalists), and never heard them say we can have no revival now. In special meetings I've heard other BJU grads preach, and never heard it then, either. Maybe the BJs themselves felt that way, or the faculty, but it didn't seem to stick with some of the preacher boys. (Could it be that one could accept, even seek, local revivals but not believe in a worldwide revival like some amils/post-mils expect?)

 

[John of Japan]

Interesting. For the past 30 years I've attended churches (2, the 2nd occasioned by a move) pastored by BJU grads (pre-trib/pre-mil/dispensationalists), and never heard them say we can have no revival now. In special meetings I've heard other BJU grads preach, and never heard it then, either. Maybe the BJs themselves felt that way, or the faculty, but it didn't seem to stick with some of the preacher boys. (Could it be that one could accept, even seek, local revivals but not believe in a worldwide revival like some amils/post-mils expect?)

Well, I know this is what Bob, Jr., believed. The 7 page letter from Rice to Jones on the 1971 split is in the John R. Rice Papers at Southwestern BTS. (I have done research there and have a digital copy.) I also know grads from those years who agrees that this is what Bob, Jr., preached. Rice wrote on p. 5, "You did not agree with my position that there is no way to know when the end of this age approaches. And, as you said plainly, you do not believe that great area-wide revivals are possible now in the same sense as in other days because you think we are approaching the end of the age."

Also, in the same paragraph JRR points out that Jones did not allow his book, We Can Have Revival Now, to be sold in the BJU bookstore. That is ironic, since the book is a series of lectures at BJU in 1950!

Beyond that, I don't think Bob Sr. held to this. I don't know about Bob III or anyone else. The students, if not the school, are mostly Baptist, so that may have played a part in the fact that many grads believe in the possibility of revival.

 

[37818]

I still don't know what you are trying to say in regards to my posts.

The tribulation and the wrath of God are to be understood as two different events. The wrath of God is not noured out until after the resurrection and rapture of the church, which happens after the tribulation. The resurrection and rapture of the church happens at Christ's appearing (1 John 3:2; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:28).

 

[Revmitchell]

The rapture and the return of Christ are clearly two different events. The nature of the trib period is the wrath of God. (Rev 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:19; 15:1, 7; 16:1; 19; I Thess 1:9-10; 5:9; Zeph 1:15, 18)

 

[John of Japan]

The tribulation and the wrath of God are to be understood as two different events. The wrath of God is not noured out until after the resurrection and rapture of the church, which happens after the tribulation. The resurrection and rapture of the church happens at Christ's appearing (1 John 3:2; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:28).

So you are post-trib, right? Kind of a rare view nowadays, but okay. Your view still has the church going through the tribulation. So why would Christ put his bride through that? I certainly wouldn't put my bride of 39 years through tribulation.

 

[37818]

So you are post-trib, right? Kind of a rare view nowadays, but okay. Your view still has the church going through the tribulation. So why would Christ put his bride through that? I certainly wouldn't put my bride of 39 years through tribulation.

My view is what the Bible explicitly teaches. God will remove His church before He pours out His wrath on the unbelieving. Accoring to Revelation 20:4 He allows some of His church to be beaded in the triblation. According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15, the rapture will in no way take place before any of the dead in Christ are raised.

 

[Revmitchell]

My view is what the Bible explicitly teaches. God will remove His church before He pours out His wrath on the unbelieving. Accoring to Revelation 20:4 He allows some of His church to be beaded in the triblation. According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15, the rapture will in no way take place before any of the dead in Christ are raised.

20:4 doesn't say it is the church. The church will be gone, due to the rapture, and there will be believers who get converted during the tribulation period. They are not the church. I Thess 4 is talking about the church and the dead who are part of the church will be raised before those alive.

 

[37818]

20:4 doesn't say it is the church. The church will be gone, due to the rapture, and there will be believers who get converted during the tribulation period. They are not the church. I Thess 4 is talking about the church and the dead who are part of the church will be raised before those alive.

The rapture will not in any way take place until after the dead in Chirst are raised first (1 Thessalonians 4:15; Revelation 20:4-6; Matthew 24:29-31). Christ has to appear His second time (Hebrews 9:28; 1 John 3:2).

The church, the body of Christ is made up of all the saved. See Revelation 14:13; Also Revelation 21: Saved Israel is part of the chruch.

 

[John of Japan]

My view is what the Bible explicitly teaches. God will remove His church before He pours out His wrath on the unbelieving. Accoring to Revelation 20:4 He allows some of His church to be beaded in the triblation. According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15, the rapture will in no way take place before any of the dead in Christ are raised.

Wow. So your interpretation is absolutely right, "what the Bible explicitly teaches," and everyone else is wrong.

For the record (even though you will say I am wrong, because you are explicitly right), Rev. 20:4 does not refer to the church, but to people saved during the tribulation. Surely you are aware that nowhere in Revelation after 2-3 does the Bible use the word "church." That's because the church is in Heaven already during the Tribulation period.