False. Satan is not currently bound in the bottomless pit. This is not the millenium, the Wolf is not lying down with the lamb. The child is not 100 years old, Israels crops are not being blessed, Gentile nations are not coming to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, etc. I could go on and on and on, but the point is there are soooo many prophecies of the Millenium that have not been fulfilled. You have to ignore a large portion of the prophets, especially Isaiah, to come to the conclusion that this present age is the millenium.
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Premillennium, Amillennium, Postmillennium
- Thread starter Mikey
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You are only quoting from the OT prophets who write of the glories of the Messianic Kingdom - prophecies that Jesus claims to be fulfilled by himself -
Luke 24:
44 He said to them, ‘This is what I told you while I was still with you: everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.’
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, ‘This is what is written: the Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.’
44 He said to them, ‘This is what I told you while I was still with you: everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.’
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, ‘This is what is written: the Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.’
I suggest that we need to see the perfect fulfilment of all prophecy in the NH&NE that Jesus will bring about at his coming for resurrection & judgment, but also see it spiritually fulfilled in the Gospel age.
When Peter writes about the "millennium" he explains that it is an indefinite period, with 2 fulfilments. 2 Peter 3.
The scoffers are claiming Jesus coming before "this generation" passes away has failed - the fathers have died. That "coming" for destruction of unrepentant Jerusalem is recorded history - AD 70. And there is a final coming for resurrection & judgment, to bring about the NH&NE.
But Covenanter Revelation 20 uses the definite article with the millennium.
In addition we have
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Hmm, also, there was a resurrection of the dead around AD1033?
Peter does not mention the Millenium anywhere in 2 Peter 3. Classic example of eisegesis.
Actually, no, the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was far from being the "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." There are so many historical events I could name (the A bombs!), but I'll stick with those relating to the Jewish nation.
Are you aware of the Bar Kochba revolt in AD 132-136? More Jews were killed than in AD 70, Jerusalem was further destroyed, and the Jews were driven out of their homeland and forbidden to return.
Again, surely you don't consider AD 70 to be worse than the 6 million Jews killed by the Nazis in WW2, do you?
I do not deny that some of the Olivet Discourse refers to AD 70. The Great Tribulation passage does not.
This is completely nebulous, and slipshod heremeneutics. The Scripture here uses the term "great tribulation" here does not make it the same as the term in Matthew 24. The term in Revelation 2 refers to a very limited number of people in a single church, not the world, or even the Jewish nation.
In this passage, there are articles in the Greek before both "great" and "tribulation," meaning it is referring to a specific Great Tribulation, the one Jesus prophesied. It is not referring to a local event such as the AD 70 one.
As I've said over and over, the Greek word for "quickly" used here refers to the speed of the 2nd Coming and attendant events, not nearness in time. "Soon" is a mistranslation in Rev. 1:1.
Prove this from history. What 144,000 were there in AD 70? Josephus and the other historians of the day do not mention this, do they?
No, it isn't! You have proven nothing.
Well, yeah, sure. That fits right in dispensational eschatology.
I think Jordan has answered this very well. There are many, many events prophesied for the Millennium that have never occurred. (Try putting a lamb in the cage of a hungry lion at the zoo and see them lie down together. But don't do this if you like little lambs and think they are cute.
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I hold on to the amil position with a loose grip. Back in the late 90's my studies caused me to question Dispensationalism and its most important teaching, a pre-wrath rapture. IMHO most of the passages used to support a pre-wrath rapture had more to do with the second coming. Herman Riddlebarger's, "A Case for Amillennialism" is a worthwhile read.
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Reproof from Particular Baptist Morgan Edwards (Res Sacra, c. 1740s):
"my text, “The saints shall reign with Christ [on earth] a thousand years." Other texts say, that all "kingdoms and dominions under the whole heaven shall be given to the saints." (Dan. Vii-- 18. 27): That the saints "shall judge men and angels." (1 Cor. vi, 2. 3). Miserable work do the Antimillenarians make of these texts. And as miserable of the following; "When the son of man shall sit on his throne, ye [my twelve disciples] shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes Israel." (Matt. xix. 28)....Literal millennarianism alone will do justice to these texts and many others;"
"Another event prior to the Millennium is the binding of Satan and shutting him up in the abyss for a thousand years (Rev. xx. 1, 2, 3.). An event this long foreseen and dreaded by the devils (Matth viii. 29.). Poor work do the Antimillenarians or spiritualizing Millenarians (who are much the same) make of this matter: They say that the devil was bound when Christ came in the flesh; because (surfeit) oracles were silenced, and possessions checked: but if the devil has not been loose these thousand years past, and for seven hundred and forty–two years besides, he never was loose in his life."
Morgan Edwards - Wikipedia
"my text, “The saints shall reign with Christ [on earth] a thousand years." Other texts say, that all "kingdoms and dominions under the whole heaven shall be given to the saints." (Dan. Vii-- 18. 27): That the saints "shall judge men and angels." (1 Cor. vi, 2. 3). Miserable work do the Antimillenarians make of these texts. And as miserable of the following; "When the son of man shall sit on his throne, ye [my twelve disciples] shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes Israel." (Matt. xix. 28)....Literal millennarianism alone will do justice to these texts and many others;"
"Another event prior to the Millennium is the binding of Satan and shutting him up in the abyss for a thousand years (Rev. xx. 1, 2, 3.). An event this long foreseen and dreaded by the devils (Matth viii. 29.). Poor work do the Antimillenarians or spiritualizing Millenarians (who are much the same) make of this matter: They say that the devil was bound when Christ came in the flesh; because (surfeit) oracles were silenced, and possessions checked: but if the devil has not been loose these thousand years past, and for seven hundred and forty–two years besides, he never was loose in his life."
Morgan Edwards - Wikipedia
An early English Particular Baptist, Benjamin Keach, was persecuted for teaching the Millennium from Scripture. He was sentenced to the pillory in 1664 for his catechism A Child's Instructor.
From the trial record:
Clerk reads [from Keach's catechism for children]. "Question: How then shall it go with the saints? Answer: Oh very well! it is the Day that they have long'd for: then they shall hear that Sentence, Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you: And so shall they reign with Christ on the Earth a thousand Years, &c."
Judge: This is contrary to the Creed in the Book of Common-Prayer, and is an old Heresy, which was cast out of the Church a thousand Years ago, and was likewise condemned by the Council of Constance about five hundred Years ago, and hath lain dead ever since, till now this Rascal hath revived it.
....
Clerk: Also in another place thou hast wickedly and maliciously composed A Short Confession of Faith, in which thou hast affirmed thus, concerning the second Person in the Blessed Trinity, in these plain English words: "I also believe that he rose again the third Day from the Dead, and ascended into Heaven, and there now sitteth at the right hand of God the Father; and from thence he shall come again at the appointed time of the Father, to reign personally upon the Earth, and to be the Judge of the Quick and the Dead."
Judge: This is contrary to our Creed: for whereas he saith, "From thence he shall come again at the appointed time of the Father, to reign personally upon the Earth, and to be Judge both of the Quick and the Dead," our Creed only saith, "From thence he shall come to judge both the Quick and the Dead."
....
Judge: Benjamin Keach, you are here convicted of writing and publishing a seditious and scandalous Book, for which the Court's Judgment is this, and the Court doth award, That you shall go to Gaol for a Fortnight, without Bail or Manprise; and the next Saturday to stand upon the Pillory at Ailsbury for the space of two Hours, from Eleven of the clock to One, with a Paper upon your head with this Inscription, "For writing, printing, and publishing a schismatical Book, intitled, The Child's Instructor, or a New and Early Primmer." And the next Thursday to stand in the same manner, and for the same time, in the Market of Winslow; and there your Book shall be openly burnt before your Face by the common Hangman, in disgrace of you and your Doctrine. And you shall forfeit to the King's Majesty the sum of 20 l. and shall remain in Gaol until you find sureties for your good Behavior and Appearance at the next Assizes, there to renounce your Doctrine, and make such publick submission as shall be injoined you. Take him away, Keeper.
Keach: I hope I shall never renounce those Truths which I have written in that Book.
---A Complete Collection of State-Trials, and Proceedings upon High-Treason, and other Crimes and Misdemeanors; From the Reign of King Richard II. to the Reign of King George II.
From the trial record:
Clerk reads [from Keach's catechism for children]. "Question: How then shall it go with the saints? Answer: Oh very well! it is the Day that they have long'd for: then they shall hear that Sentence, Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you: And so shall they reign with Christ on the Earth a thousand Years, &c."
Judge: This is contrary to the Creed in the Book of Common-Prayer, and is an old Heresy, which was cast out of the Church a thousand Years ago, and was likewise condemned by the Council of Constance about five hundred Years ago, and hath lain dead ever since, till now this Rascal hath revived it.
....
Clerk: Also in another place thou hast wickedly and maliciously composed A Short Confession of Faith, in which thou hast affirmed thus, concerning the second Person in the Blessed Trinity, in these plain English words: "I also believe that he rose again the third Day from the Dead, and ascended into Heaven, and there now sitteth at the right hand of God the Father; and from thence he shall come again at the appointed time of the Father, to reign personally upon the Earth, and to be the Judge of the Quick and the Dead."
Judge: This is contrary to our Creed: for whereas he saith, "From thence he shall come again at the appointed time of the Father, to reign personally upon the Earth, and to be Judge both of the Quick and the Dead," our Creed only saith, "From thence he shall come to judge both the Quick and the Dead."
....
Judge: Benjamin Keach, you are here convicted of writing and publishing a seditious and scandalous Book, for which the Court's Judgment is this, and the Court doth award, That you shall go to Gaol for a Fortnight, without Bail or Manprise; and the next Saturday to stand upon the Pillory at Ailsbury for the space of two Hours, from Eleven of the clock to One, with a Paper upon your head with this Inscription, "For writing, printing, and publishing a schismatical Book, intitled, The Child's Instructor, or a New and Early Primmer." And the next Thursday to stand in the same manner, and for the same time, in the Market of Winslow; and there your Book shall be openly burnt before your Face by the common Hangman, in disgrace of you and your Doctrine. And you shall forfeit to the King's Majesty the sum of 20 l. and shall remain in Gaol until you find sureties for your good Behavior and Appearance at the next Assizes, there to renounce your Doctrine, and make such publick submission as shall be injoined you. Take him away, Keeper.
Keach: I hope I shall never renounce those Truths which I have written in that Book.
---A Complete Collection of State-Trials, and Proceedings upon High-Treason, and other Crimes and Misdemeanors; From the Reign of King Richard II. to the Reign of King George II.
Likewise Hanserd Knollys explained in The World that Now Is and the World that Is to Come (c. 1680s):
"This is the first Resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first Resurrection. They shall reign with Christ a thousand years, and that on Earth....After the Saints are raised, and have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, shall be the general Resurrection, Rev. 20. 12, 13."
"This is the first Resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first Resurrection. They shall reign with Christ a thousand years, and that on Earth....After the Saints are raised, and have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, shall be the general Resurrection, Rev. 20. 12, 13."
Those cosmic disturbances have been reported several times in the ot as well.
It has nothing to do with literal sun, moon. Or stars.see gen 37, isa13,isa34.
Where does it say...on the earth?
Jesus Saves!
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Some scripture that came to mind. I believe we reign with Christ now.
Matthew 16:28 KJVS
[28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Luke 17:20-21 KJVS
[20] And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: [21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
1 Corinthians 15:50 KJVS
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Romans 6:12 KJVS
[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Romans 5:17,21 KJVS
[17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Acts 2:29-31 KJVS
[29] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. [30] Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; [31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Christ sits on the throne today. He arose to sit on the throne I'd David and reigns over spiritual Israel.
Romans 2:28-29 KJVS
[28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 9:6-8 KJVS
[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Matthew 16:28 KJVS
[28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Luke 17:20-21 KJVS
[20] And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: [21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
1 Corinthians 15:50 KJVS
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Romans 6:12 KJVS
[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Romans 5:17,21 KJVS
[17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Acts 2:29-31 KJVS
[29] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. [30] Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; [31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Christ sits on the throne today. He arose to sit on the throne I'd David and reigns over spiritual Israel.
Romans 2:28-29 KJVS
[28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 9:6-8 KJVS
[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Herman who?
How about Charles Spurgeon, his sermon "The Necessity of Increased Faith":
"A certain somebody drew up five or six doctrines, and said, 'There are the doctrines of the Bible,' and ye believe these....Calvin is made the standard and what business has any man to think a single thought beyond Calvin? Blessed be God, we have gone a little beyond that; and we can say, 'Increase our faith.' With all our admiration for these great standard divines, we are not prepared to shut ourselves up in their little iron cages; but we say, 'Open the door, and let me fly—let me still feel that I am at liberty. Increase my faith, and help me to believe a little more.' I know I can say I have had an increase of faith in one or two respects within the last few months. I could not, for a long time, see anything like the Millenium in the Scriptures; I could not much rejoice in the Second Coming of Christ, though I did believe it; but gradually my faith began to open to that subject, and I find it now a part of my meat and drink, to be looking for, as well as hastening unto, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Hallelujah! The Blessed Hope!
Confession of faith signed by Spurgeon, circa 1890:
"We, the undersigned, banded together in Fraternal Union, . . . .
We hold and maintain the truths generally known as 'the doctrines of grace.' The Electing Love of God the Father, the Propitiatory and Substitutionary Sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ, Regeneration by the Holy Ghost, the Imputation of Christ's Righteousness, the Justification of the sinner (once for all) by faith, his walk in newness of life and growth in grace by the active indwelling of the Holy Ghost, and the Priestly Intercession of our Lord Jesus, as also the hopeless perdition of all who reject the Savior, according to the words of the Lord in Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into eternal punishment,"—are, in our judgment, revealed and fundamental truths.
Our hope is the Personal Pre-millennial Return of the Lord Jesus in glory.
C. H. SPURGEON. . . ."
I am in good company with Spurgeon, as a Covenant preMil!
One cannot support pre trib rapture historically, but we can defiantly support all the way back to some of the ECF preMil viewpoint!
Hmm, Y - do I see a Freudian slip in your response!?
A malaprop?
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