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Presbyterians Modify Salvation Views
- Thread starter Cindy
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Me2 said:
To Hank D... Who wanted to see how the Primitive Baptist interpreted the Great Commission... You think I was speaking in an unknown tongue because it left him speechless!... Brother Glen
I for one am glad you are being entertained with the truth.
To Hank D... Who wanted to see how the Primitive Baptist interpreted the Great Commission... You think I was speaking in an unknown tongue because it left him speechless!... Brother Glen
SolaScriptura
New Member
to Me2:
Furthermore, Mark 12:32 says "...whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." -- So, Me2 asks, "Isnt one Called An Anti-Christ if They Believe That Jesus Has Not Forgiven Every Sin Committed Past Present and Future?" Well, the answer is obviously no since Jesus Himself specifies one sin which He will NEVER forgive. [FYI: I think the 2 worlds (or ages as other translations put it) are the 2 dispensations: "this age" being the OT dispensation (of law) which was in effect when Jesus made this statement and "age to come" being the dispensation of the NT (of grace).]
By the way, to more directly answer your question, the Scriptures give two definitions of antichrist: (1) that anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ is antichrist 1 John 2:22
(2) "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh...is that spirit of antichrist..." (1 John 4:3)
[ June 24, 2002, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]
There's the big problem that a whole lot of people have - they think that Jesus took everyone's wrath and they make salvation into just "Jesus took my punishment so I can't be punished." There's more to salvation than the absence of punishment and "wrath." Not only that, but the idea that Jesus' sacrifice was to placate an angry God doesn't seem very Scriptural - that is that Jesus' sacrifice was for our cleansing & healing not God's placation. Isa 53:5, 1 Pet 2:24 "By his stripes we are healed" not "His stripes placated God." Can you find a Scripture that says "His stripes placated God"? Besides this, the Bible specifically says that God still has wrath to pour out. Rev 16:1
So, fornicators no longer get pregnant and homosexuals no longer get aids (Rom 1) and people who commit suicide (a sin) don't die from it, because Jesus took all the effects/penalties of sin? That doesn't sound right, my friend. Jesus shed His precious blood, which cleanses the believer from all sin making him sinless before God so that he can enter God's presence. Where does the Bible say that Jesus took the punishment of hell? I read only that He took physical death, specifically the curse of the Law (hanging on a tree) Gal 3:13. I don't read that Jesus suffered eternally in hell for us and took that punishment and "wrath" but rather that His blood cleanses us so that God will see no reason to send us to hell. You see, it isn't that Jesus took hell for us, but that He cleansed the believers so that they will not be condemned to it - only those spotted with sin can be sent to hell, so IF the blood of Christ has cleansed us, we can't be condemned to hell! But, that is an IF because the Bible says "IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7) The cleansing of Christ's blood is CONDITIONAL to our remaining in the light of Christ, thus no universal salvation.
Furthermore, Mark 12:32 says "...whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." -- So, Me2 asks, "Isnt one Called An Anti-Christ if They Believe That Jesus Has Not Forgiven Every Sin Committed Past Present and Future?" Well, the answer is obviously no since Jesus Himself specifies one sin which He will NEVER forgive. [FYI: I think the 2 worlds (or ages as other translations put it) are the 2 dispensations: "this age" being the OT dispensation (of law) which was in effect when Jesus made this statement and "age to come" being the dispensation of the NT (of grace).]
By the way, to more directly answer your question, the Scriptures give two definitions of antichrist: (1) that anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ is antichrist 1 John 2:22
(2) "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh...is that spirit of antichrist..." (1 John 4:3)
[ June 24, 2002, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]
Me2,
Getting back to your post, I do not believe for a second that 2Cor.5:18-21 is referring to a select group of people who are chosen to be ambassadors for the ministry of reconciliation. Paul was writing to the Corinthian church, to the believers or saints at Corinth. He used the pronoun "we," indicating he and all of them. We, all are ambassadors for Christ. Every Christian is an ambassador for Christ. The very meaning of the word Christian is follower of Christ. An ambassador is a representative, usually of another country. Do you not represent Christ? Are you ashamed to be called a Christian? Are you ashamed to be His representative on this earth. If we are not His ambassadors, then whose ambassadors are we? I know whose side I am on, and who I represent.
We, (every Christian) are given the ministry of reconciliation. An ambassador cannot forgive sins, as you suggest. Only God forgives sins. We have the ministry of reconciliation--bringing others to the place where they will trust Christ. That is an urgent duty that Christ has placed upon us. His sacrifice was sufficient to save us. Now we have the obligation to go and tell others that they too need to be reconciled to an Almighty and Holy God, who will not look upon sin. Sinful man cannot stand in the presence of such a holy God. The only way possible is for man to be covered with the righteousness of Christ, for we have none of our own to present to God. We are but sinners, and Christ paid for our sin with His blood. If I will believe and accept that sacrifice He will grant unto me eternal life. If I refuse that gift of eternal life, the wrath of God remains upon me, and I will be forever condemned.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
God has given to every believer the ministry of reconciliation, which is basically the Great Commission.
Mat.28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
---It was His last recorded command. Do you really think it would be just for a select few?
Who is the Great Commission given to here?
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
---Look at the context here carefully before jumping to the conclusion that this was just for the apostles. Verse three describes how Christ showed himself alive with many infallible proofs for a period of forty days. 1Cor.15 tells us how many were seen of him during those forty days, and the number is above 500. Verse four says, "these being assembled with them." I am quite sure it was not all 500, but it is more than just the apostles here. When they returned to Jerusalem, (vs.12), it says that they were in the upper room, and there were 120 present. It is obvious then that the Great Commission, given as it is here, was not just for the twelve apostles, that it had a much wider application then just the local areas mentioned.
When William Carey addressed the Minister's Fraternal of the Northampton Baptist Association in 1787 concerning missions John Ryland Sr. replied, "Sit down young man. You are an enthusiast! When God pleases to convert the heathen, He will do it without consulting you or me." I am glad that Carey did not listen to the Calvinistic voices of his day, but followed God in obedience to the command of carrying out the Great Commission. It also began the age of Modern Missions. Every believer has an obligation to preach the gospel to those that have never heard it before. If they reject the gospel message they will stand in front of God at the Great White Throne Judgement, and be cast into the Lake of fire. God is a just God. His Son did not die in vain, or for naught. If all were to be saved anyway, then why would he die in the first place? "He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God, hath not life."
DHK
Getting back to your post, I do not believe for a second that 2Cor.5:18-21 is referring to a select group of people who are chosen to be ambassadors for the ministry of reconciliation. Paul was writing to the Corinthian church, to the believers or saints at Corinth. He used the pronoun "we," indicating he and all of them. We, all are ambassadors for Christ. Every Christian is an ambassador for Christ. The very meaning of the word Christian is follower of Christ. An ambassador is a representative, usually of another country. Do you not represent Christ? Are you ashamed to be called a Christian? Are you ashamed to be His representative on this earth. If we are not His ambassadors, then whose ambassadors are we? I know whose side I am on, and who I represent.
We, (every Christian) are given the ministry of reconciliation. An ambassador cannot forgive sins, as you suggest. Only God forgives sins. We have the ministry of reconciliation--bringing others to the place where they will trust Christ. That is an urgent duty that Christ has placed upon us. His sacrifice was sufficient to save us. Now we have the obligation to go and tell others that they too need to be reconciled to an Almighty and Holy God, who will not look upon sin. Sinful man cannot stand in the presence of such a holy God. The only way possible is for man to be covered with the righteousness of Christ, for we have none of our own to present to God. We are but sinners, and Christ paid for our sin with His blood. If I will believe and accept that sacrifice He will grant unto me eternal life. If I refuse that gift of eternal life, the wrath of God remains upon me, and I will be forever condemned.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
God has given to every believer the ministry of reconciliation, which is basically the Great Commission.
Mat.28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
---It was His last recorded command. Do you really think it would be just for a select few?
Who is the Great Commission given to here?
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
---Look at the context here carefully before jumping to the conclusion that this was just for the apostles. Verse three describes how Christ showed himself alive with many infallible proofs for a period of forty days. 1Cor.15 tells us how many were seen of him during those forty days, and the number is above 500. Verse four says, "these being assembled with them." I am quite sure it was not all 500, but it is more than just the apostles here. When they returned to Jerusalem, (vs.12), it says that they were in the upper room, and there were 120 present. It is obvious then that the Great Commission, given as it is here, was not just for the twelve apostles, that it had a much wider application then just the local areas mentioned.
When William Carey addressed the Minister's Fraternal of the Northampton Baptist Association in 1787 concerning missions John Ryland Sr. replied, "Sit down young man. You are an enthusiast! When God pleases to convert the heathen, He will do it without consulting you or me." I am glad that Carey did not listen to the Calvinistic voices of his day, but followed God in obedience to the command of carrying out the Great Commission. It also began the age of Modern Missions. Every believer has an obligation to preach the gospel to those that have never heard it before. If they reject the gospel message they will stand in front of God at the Great White Throne Judgement, and be cast into the Lake of fire. God is a just God. His Son did not die in vain, or for naught. If all were to be saved anyway, then why would he die in the first place? "He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God, hath not life."
DHK
DHK said:
Prove to me that the power given to the Apostles were passed down to us from generation to generation and I will believe what you say. The Apostles had all manner of power passed on by Jesus Christ... To heal the sick, make the lame walk, the blind see, the deaf hear, raise the dead and cast out devils. If any church on the face of this earth can prove that they also have this power, then I and the Primitive Baptist brethren will believe it and I'm speaking of a natural visible proof. It does not exist as it ended with the Apostles. What John Ryland Sr. said was correct and biblically sound When God pleases to convert the heathen, He will do it without consulting you or me."... Brother Glen
CatholicConvert
New Member
Brother Glenn --
Are you familiar with the recently beatified Padre Pio and the miracles he performed? What of the godly St. Seraphim of Sarov? How about the miralce of the Holy Fire on the Old Calander Pascha in Jerusalem in which the Patriarch of Jerusalem has a heavenly fire from God light his candle and then it is passed on to all the pilgrims. This has been videotaped and can be seen on the Internet. An amazing miracle.
No miracles haven't ceased, but one must wonder why it is that the Orthodox and Catholics have them, can medically prove them, and the Protestants either don't, or have charlatans like Robert Tilton, etc. making them up.
Cordially in Christ,
Brother Ed
Are you familiar with the recently beatified Padre Pio and the miracles he performed? What of the godly St. Seraphim of Sarov? How about the miralce of the Holy Fire on the Old Calander Pascha in Jerusalem in which the Patriarch of Jerusalem has a heavenly fire from God light his candle and then it is passed on to all the pilgrims. This has been videotaped and can be seen on the Internet. An amazing miracle.
No miracles haven't ceased, but one must wonder why it is that the Orthodox and Catholics have them, can medically prove them, and the Protestants either don't, or have charlatans like Robert Tilton, etc. making them up.
Cordially in Christ,
Brother Ed
Prove to me that the power given to the Apostles were passed down to us from generation to generation and I will believe what you say.
What John Ryland Sr. said was correct and biblically sound When God pleases to convert the heathen, He will do it without consulting you or me."</font>[/QUOTE]Carey spent the first seven years without a convert but now the tide was turning. Finally in December of 1800 Carey baptized his first Hindu and by 1821 the missionaries had baptized over 1400 new Christians. By 1837, he and his helpers had translated portions of the Scripture into more than 40 languages. The mission's first school for natives was opened in 1798 and in the next 20 years 102 more schools were opened with nearly 7,000 students. Carey's crowning jewel was the Serampore College which is still in operation to this present day.
Were those 1400 souls that were saved, and the many afterward, that were a result of his schools, a mistake? Would they have been saved anyway had not Carey gone? The Bible says if we fail not to warn the wicked from their ways their blood will be upon our hands. Was all the work that Carey did for the glory of the Lord in India wrong? Should he have taken Ryland's advice and allowed those Hindu's to die in their sin and perish in Hell?
Rom.10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom.15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
--America is swamped with the gospel through television, radio, churches, tracts, etc. People have opportunity here everywhere to hear the gospel. Should any man have the right to hear the gospel twice when so many have not heard the gospel even once?
Paul took the Great Commission to heart and went on three missionary journeys establishing over 100 churches. He taught the same principles to Timothy:
2Tim.2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
--If you would but win one man to the Lord, disciple that man in one month, and the next month, the two of you go and win and disciple two more, and the next month the four of you go, etc. then in 3 years all the world would theoretically be saved. Of course we know that many will not believe. But our obligation is still there. We are to be witnesses.
THE GREAT COMMISSION:
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mat.28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
---Was the Bible relevant only to the Apostles? Is it not relevant to us today. Did Jesus tell only the Apostles and their immediate disciples to be witnesses, and to go into all the world? Is not that the same as saying that he taught only his disciple to pray? John 16:24 was directed only to his disciples. The parable of the vine and the branches (John 15) and all the wonderful teaching that follows is directed only at the disciples. Does it only apply to them. Are the teachings of Jesus applicable only to the Apostles, or do they have a wider scope. If the teachings of Jesus on prayer apply to us today, then I would submit to you that the teachings of Jesus on witnessing and going with the gospel to every creature in the world applies to us today as well. The Bible is a living Book applicable to every age. It did not end at the age of the Apostles. There were certain "signs" that ended that showed or authenticated either the Apostles themselves or the message that the Apostles had. Those signs are no longer needed. But the message itself has never ended. If it has we have no hope of being saved, and are yet lost in our sins.
"Love your neighbour as yourself." This is the second greatest command of God. If you truly do, you will take the gospel to your neighbor (the world): the African, the South American, the East Indian, etc. and witness to them out of the love of Christ. Love your neighbor as yourself.
DHK
I would say that God will save whoever He wants to save. He uses us to reach people with his message, the great commission is definately still in effect. I also believe that God's Holy Spirit is still at work. Miracles do still happen! I've heard stories of people that have been raised from the dead, and I have seen people healed. God will never stop doing miracles.
God Bless,
Matt
God Bless,
Matt
DHK said:
They are dying in their sins and perishing in hell according to your biblical interpretation of scripture but not according to mine. Like I said before you brethren are welcome to that belief... When we talk of Amazing Grace you brethren have no idea how Amazing that Grace is... That included Hindus without your help!... God will eternally save his blood bought children without our help!... Brother Glen
CatholicConvert
New Member
Actaully, DHK, the catholic (or universal) faith of the apostles came to India long before Carey in the person of Apostle Thomas, who is considered the apostle to the Indians. There are still indiginous churches of that apostolic deposit in South India today. They are called the "Mar Thoma" and are very akin in worship to the Eastern Orthodox.
Brother Ed
Brother Ed
Brother Ed well I appreciate your rundown of the different miracles that these different Catholic saints as you called them performed but you're talking to a Primitive Baptist. Apostle Paul was a great preacher and teacher but even he was appauled that those brethren tried to worship him. We are but men he said and you want to take these men who couldn't even wear his shoes and call them saints when he wouldn't claim the title for himself.
Acts 14:12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
Notice he doesn't say don't do this because I'm Saint Paul The Apostle and this is Saint Barnabas The Apostle... We are also Men of like passions with you... You mentioned miracles and those that perform them now but I see miracles different than you do. Miracles are performed everyday when the sun rises and I wake up and see the works of God all around me and all through the day... Then when the sunsets and I see the handiwork of God in the Heavens. Miracles happen every day by God and he doesn't need anyone to draw our attention to our God... Like I told you before I'm a Primitive Baptist and I don't see things like the Catholic brethren... And to the Lord I'm especially thankful for that miracle!... Brother Glen
Acts 14:12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
Notice he doesn't say don't do this because I'm Saint Paul The Apostle and this is Saint Barnabas The Apostle... We are also Men of like passions with you... You mentioned miracles and those that perform them now but I see miracles different than you do. Miracles are performed everyday when the sun rises and I wake up and see the works of God all around me and all through the day... Then when the sunsets and I see the handiwork of God in the Heavens. Miracles happen every day by God and he doesn't need anyone to draw our attention to our God... Like I told you before I'm a Primitive Baptist and I don't see things like the Catholic brethren... And to the Lord I'm especially thankful for that miracle!... Brother Glen
SolaScriptura
New Member
Aren't miracles a bit off topic considering that this was about universalism?
[ June 25, 2002, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]
And you think the interpretation that unbelievers will be saved is a good interpretation? You just disproved your interpretation really. Rev 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, [etc.]...shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
[ June 25, 2002, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]
I'm sure God knows who his children are and they are the redeemed out of every kindred, tongue, nation, and people. Personally Solascriptura I'm not concerned about those that are not his children as he will save all his children just like he said he would!... Brother Glen
Hello Again,
SolaScripta, I Would Like You of to Give me your interpretation of what you believe an antichrist is. Yes,...we Have Those Scriptures mentioned...What Do They Mean ?..
Not Having The Father or the Son
Every Spirit that Confesses that Jesus Did Not Come In The Flesh
Denieth that jesus is the christ?
They went out from us.. who is us and where were we at. where are they at now?
They were once a part of the church..they were believers. They are carnal christians who hold onto there sin.. Jesus didnt die for that sin..or jesus cant forgive that sin...or god doesnt love him..for doing that! or jesus doesnt love all! or jesus didnt die for All! or God really doesnt love the whole world..since he's gonna send most of it to hell.....forever!
or we can talk about the real christ or the real God... God Loves All,...Christ Died For All...
You Want To Hear About The True Wrath Of God...Its Forgiving You Of Whatever Tressasses You Have Committed...ooohhh That Bad...its bad if you cant believe it...The Fire of Gods Wrath...It Only Burns when you cant believe it...God Actually Forgives You And Loves You...
Change your Minds you Double Minded or the Fire of God Wrath Will Burn You!...
Dont You Ever Wonder Why Religion is the only people who Talk About Hell??
To The Double Minded Gods Love is Hell...Its Against Their Choice of Who Is Right!
Carnal Mind against Gods Spirit... Your Old Mindset That God Doesnt Forgive All against Gods Love Of All and Trying To Convince You Of That Fact....
Sorry I Didnt Post Scripture..But Im Sure You Can Find Them..Time Constraints
SolaScripta, I Would Like You of to Give me your interpretation of what you believe an antichrist is. Yes,...we Have Those Scriptures mentioned...What Do They Mean ?..
Not Having The Father or the Son
Every Spirit that Confesses that Jesus Did Not Come In The Flesh
Denieth that jesus is the christ?
They went out from us.. who is us and where were we at. where are they at now?
They were once a part of the church..they were believers. They are carnal christians who hold onto there sin.. Jesus didnt die for that sin..or jesus cant forgive that sin...or god doesnt love him..for doing that! or jesus doesnt love all! or jesus didnt die for All! or God really doesnt love the whole world..since he's gonna send most of it to hell.....forever!
or we can talk about the real christ or the real God... God Loves All,...Christ Died For All...
You Want To Hear About The True Wrath Of God...Its Forgiving You Of Whatever Tressasses You Have Committed...ooohhh That Bad...its bad if you cant believe it...The Fire of Gods Wrath...It Only Burns when you cant believe it...God Actually Forgives You And Loves You...
Change your Minds you Double Minded or the Fire of God Wrath Will Burn You!...
Dont You Ever Wonder Why Religion is the only people who Talk About Hell??
To The Double Minded Gods Love is Hell...Its Against Their Choice of Who Is Right!
Carnal Mind against Gods Spirit... Your Old Mindset That God Doesnt Forgive All against Gods Love Of All and Trying To Convince You Of That Fact....
Sorry I Didnt Post Scripture..But Im Sure You Can Find Them..Time Constraints