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Prescience / Foreknowledge / Foresight

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by GordonSlocum, Dec 24, 2006.

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  1. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum New Member

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    I have to scratch my head on that one.

    He has faith in Christ / He believes in Christ. = the same the last time I heard.
     
    #21 GordonSlocum, Dec 29, 2006
  2. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    No, because I can believe a thing and yet not act upon it. Last year, I beieved that FedEx stock could go nowhere but up. Did I buy the stock? No. Therefore, no profit though I did believe. That's called "belief in vain" by Paul, 1Cor 15:2.

    skypair
     
    #22 skypair, Dec 29, 2006
  3. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum New Member

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    My goal in posting is not to have one up on anyone. We all have our view and we really do have a game of words.

    A person must repent and believe the Gospel to receive salvation.

    The process:

    Man is created in the image of God and has capacity to trust

    The Gospel is preached to man

    Man who is created in the image of God hears the Gospel

    Man now has the information whereby he can make a real choice and agree with God or reject the information. Real faith in Christ involves agreeing with Him about our state and trusting in Christ. We call it repentance and faith as the total package so to speak.

    At this point in time this person is a real born again believer.

    All the following is what happens:

    Regeneration
    Sealed
    Saved
    Positionally sanctified
    Justified
    Positionally glorified
    Converted
    Born again
    Born from above
    A new creature in Christ

    These terms and there meanings take place after a person repents and believes.

    In Eternity past, as we refer to it, when there was not time and space - God saw that a person would believe and declared it in eternity that this person was Elect and was appointed to eternal life but believed in space and time, see Acts 13.

    Election is on the basis of Foreknowledge clear and simple. God's calling is on the basis of His foreknowledge. All that the Father gives to Chris is on the basis of His foreknowledge. God knows who to call because He knows in an Absolute way all actual and potential decisions of all mankind from beginning to end.

    Romans 8 clearly teaches that all the things that happen are on the basis of foreknowledge. Our salvation is sealed and sure from before the foundation of the world.

    We were not pre-selected to believe but were selected because God foresaw us believe from His Absolute Knowledge which we call foreknowledge / Foresight / Prescience.

    That should clear it up.
     
    #23 GordonSlocum, Dec 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2006
  4. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Gordon,

    The real issue in that "process" is, don't you see faith as a "gift?" Per 1Cor 12:9?? Faith is NOT something we have when we repent. Faith is "proof" -- the evidence of what we believe. The "Evidence" (IMO) of our effecacious belief in salvation "in Christ" is the Holy Spirit.

    And that is where I try to bring the Calvinists into agreement. Normally, they will tell me that belief is faith and faith is belief. Is that so or is it not? If it is so, there is really nothing on man's part in salvation -- absolutely nothing! But if we can choose to believe or not, choose to repent or not -- this loosens Calvinisms foundations from scripture.


    Reverse those 2 terms and "you're spot on!" As soon as a person believes and repents, he receives faith. How does that sound?

    skypair
     
    #24 skypair, Dec 31, 2006
  5. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum New Member

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    The word faith (noun) when used as a verb in English is pronounced believe. First person singular "I believe, Second person singular you believe and third person singular He or She or It believes. In the plural it is "We believe (first person plural) you believe (second person plural) and they believe (third person plural). The Greek word for believe is spelled out with English letters as follows PISTEUOO - The P is a "Pi" The I is "iota" the S is "sigma" the T is "Tau" the E is "Epsilon" the U is "Upsilon" and the OO is "Omega"

    The noun form of the verb is PISTIS. They are the same word one as a noun and the other a verb.

    When Jesus used the noun form in asking "Where is your faith" this "faith" is that "faith" that one has when one is believing in Christ. Did you notice that I sued the Noun and the Verb both as “saving faith” or if you may “saving believing”. His faith in Christ saved him. Or He is believing in Christ.

    Now we can say He trust in Christ, or He believed in Christ, or He placed his faith in Christ and it is all the same "PISTIS".

    Is there a use of "PISTIS" that does not refer to salvation? Yes

    When PISTIS is used to speak of the body of teaching - doctrine then it is not speaking of saving faith. What faith are you? Baptist - They were strong in the faith. What faith? The Christians faith. This could be well versed in their doctrine of their daily walk. We would need a context by which define its meaning. But by itself it still would not mean saving faith in this sentence.

    If we say their faith is strong we are not referring to salvation but daily living. The word is the same, but the way it is used is different. So when Jesus said where is your faith we need to examine the context to see if it points to salvation, or healing, or their walk as believers or the body of teaching. When Jesus says “your faith has saved you” it means what it says. If the context is salvation they are saved. In one case a person is saved and healed by the same faith. So what does this tell us? It tells us that the same faith that saved heals. It tells us that the same faith that saves, heals, is the same faith we live by each day. We have the capacity to have faith, trust, believe in simple because we are created in the image of God.

    Faith can be weak, normal, and great. One's faith can be increased. How is this possible? Through obedience and surrender to God's will faith is stronger. Here we are talking about our trust as we live the Christian life.

    Back to saving faith. There is no difference in the word faith and believe they are the same. It is how we use it. If we use it in reference to salvation the they are the same. Just because we use the word "faith" and then "believe" does not mean they are different that is impossible.
     
    #25 GordonSlocum, Dec 31, 2006
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  6. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Gordon Slocum said:

    You are an articulate defender of the foreseen faith position.

    Where does grace enter the equation you spoke of above?

    Was there a point where God had not yet seen an individual's faith?

    Can it not be said that in your scenario, the individual elects himself? Appoints himself to eternal life?
     
    #26 Tom Butler, Dec 31, 2006
  7. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum New Member

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    In my opinion there are only two possible ways and one has to be wrong. While I feel extremely strong and secure with my view. I am not the average non-Calvinist. I know what I believe and I work at defending it. I am but a sinner saved by God's Grace. My heart is humbled and my spirit bows low before my Heavenly Father. I am overwhelmed at His love for me, and for all lost peoples.

    (1) In my thinking I try to imagine God in eternity past. There God is - no time - no created matter. That alone I don't understand.

    (2) If you take knowledge and remove it form God all the power, will, or any other attribute is worthless. Power without direction is nothing, will can not exist apart from (a) knowledge and (b) power.

    (3) Knowledge and power are necessary if will is to be possible. A God who has knowledge and power but no will to do it renders both useless.

    (4) I see God as having Absolute knowledge and we call it foreknowledge, foresight, prescience because we live in time and space. Our choices are limited by time, space, and our physical makeup.

    (5) Picture God now in eternity with no time and matter - before the creation as we understand it. God has this Absolute knowledge. He knows every possible and actual thing that could and will exist. Nothing escapes God. We have statements of this here and there in the Scripture. Here is one - John 6:64 "But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, ............." 6:65 "..... For this reason I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

    (6) Two quick points against Calvinism here before we move toward answering the question on Grace. One the word know is used here to point out the lost. It is a knowing of a fact. All relationships are personal, this is personal knowledge of a fact that Jesus knew what His relationship was from eternity concerning those who are lost. Foreknowledge here is the key. All who are given to Christ by the Father are foreknown and this is how the Father gives to Jesus.

    (7) Now, picture God thinking a thought. "I think I will create a universe, which will include on planet with all types of life and one type in our image.

    (8) Did God know He would think this thought before He did? Yes. Was there ever a time when He did not know what He would do and who would believe? No. It is impossible for God not to know in all of eternity that He would create. But for us to understand this we do so from our reference point for in all reality we can not fully comprehend God in Eternity and His Absolute Knowledge. We can only try to explain it.

    (9) But form our reason and understanding we know that before anything can exist there must be a thought, development of the thought that leads to a plan and then the resources to put the plan into action.

    (10) Scripture tells us that Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world. We are told that as a saved person we are in Christ. That puts us saved in eternity past from the standpoint of the Absolute knowledge of God - we call it foreknowledge, foresight, prescience.

    (11) God saw and knew Adam would sin before He sinned. If God did not know this then why was Christ crucified before the foundation of the world? This one point is so strong in support of the Foreknowledge / free will view that Calvinism is left wanting in all categories.

    (12) If God can state emphatically about the Son, and dealings with man He can also do the same with a depraved man. Depravity is not cessation it is separation. If we press the issue of Calvinist' view of depravity by which they say God has to regenerate the soul, bring it back to life, then there is a major catastrophic problem. To kill dead the soul in this fashion is to eliminate the image of God in a man. It is one of the most illogical views one could think of. It just will not work in any sound theology. So God sees all real, or actual decisions and knows all possibilities should a decision have been different.

    (13) God has a plan and in this plan man has free will. God coordinates His plan by using the free choices of man both saved and lost. We are totally responsible for our choices. God sees, and knows all we think, and do.

    (14) So here we are in space and time. God planed a plan and set it in motion. In his plan is our freedom. In that God knew the outcome before the creation of it, He is capable to plan accordingly. This is why He can slay Christ before the foundation of the world. This is why He can declare our salvation, election, appointment to eternal life in Eternity because He knows who will believe and who will not. He knows if the person in the deepest darkest parts of the world would or would not come to Christ if the gospel were presented to them.

    (15) Now Grace: What is Grace? Grace is God dying for us to save us because we can not save ourselves. Lost man is trying to save himself in large measure. This is why we have so many world religions. Man can not save himself with any religion. But, when man believes in Christ he forsakes his work to save himself to trust in God's work which is His Grace that being the death, burial, and resurrection to pay the sin debt required by God.

    (16) When man hears the Gospel he then has the truth he needs to respond to Christ for salvation. Man is not doing anything for his salvation when he agrees with God that he is a sinner and need Christ for salvation. When man agrees with God that he is what he is and then moves to accepting the facts of God's provision "Christ" - we call it repentance and faith - then and only then is a man saved.

    (17) Why is it that Calvinism can not be true? Good question. Peter tells us that God is not willing that any perish and that all come to the knowledge of the truth. A God who picks a few from the many who also states clearly that He is not willing, wishing, purposing that any perish becomes a Hypocritical God in this theology. It can not be. God can not violate His wishes or will or purpose which is clearly stated by Peter. If Election is according to Calvinism then God is a liar and the Bible is worthless. Calvinism destroys the Holiness of God. The Holiness of God must remain and to hold to the view as stated is to make God lie and this then makes God un-holy. This is impossible so Calvinism is wrong, false, and an attack on the Holiness of God.

    Please know that I love all my brothers and sisters who are Calvinist. Please do not take what I say as hateful. I have no room for Calvinism in my thinking as a valid view of theology in light of the facts of Scripture.

    My God richly bless you and keep you

    Gordon
     
    #27 GordonSlocum, Jan 1, 2007
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  8. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Thank you Gordon. That was the best explanation of free will I've heard so far. I totally agree! :godisgood:
     
    #28 Amy.G, Jan 1, 2007
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I'm sorry Amy , Gordon's expanation was just a rehash of the same ole' same ole . The Lord knows His own -- no one else . He will tell some He does not know them . Since He doesn't know them means He has not set His love on them as He has with His elect who are inded preselected before the foundation of the world . Hear the words of George Bishop -- one of the contributers to the Fundamentals :

    To say that God elected those whom He foresaw would believe is to deny election . God elected those He foresaw would believe and who were they ? none ,-- absolutely none . He foresaw that none would believe , not one . Did He ? Then because He foresaw this He had to elect ., otherwise not one would have believed at all . ( the Doctrines Of Grace p. 174 )
     
    #29 Rippon, Jan 1, 2007
  10. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hello GordonSlocum,

    Indeed. Those that try to have a middle ground, are just using a logic in their haed that does not work out when you place it down on paper. There is only one that is controling salvation. It must be man or God.

    Agreed.

    I would not call it "nothing". Power without knowledge exist even in man. Place a 15 year old that has never drove, behind a wheel of a souped-up red sports car. Yet he does not KNOW the full power that rest in his foot. A child playing with a gun, would not know the power that rest in that trigger. The teen was still a person. The child was still a person.

    God could still be God, not knowing does not remove His Godhead. Fore...God could still control man at the moment He sees man do something. Like God could have seen Adam reach for the apple and God could have just at that moment for the 1st time learned about Adams wanting to sin and stopped it. Now this is not the picture we find in the Bible, but God could exist and Be a all POWERFUL being controling the world without knowing all things. In fact this is a view of Open-theist that is growing in the free-will camp. God is only a reacter in this view. Though this is a wrong view of God, God is still in control.

    This is just to show where your logic falls short. Knowing is not what makes God a God. His power and control is what makes God, the one and only God. Lets remove His power and will to control and see what happens.

    Lets say....God wants to place the Devil in hell. But the devil does not want to go there. With no power from God, how will God do this? God could KNOW He wants to do this for 1000s years, and still with no power what can God do about it? What rules over all and makes God who He is, would be Gods controling power.

    This again is not true. In a Open-theist model God can shape on a event only bases. I do not hold to Open-theist model, but this is to show that God would not be useless if this were to true.

    Absolute Knowledge...Yes. God Knows for God is in full control. God decrees it to happen and therefore knows it will happen. Our choice in time space and matter has nothing to do with it other then to let us know when it happened.

    Indeed. Its not hard to see that if God has a plan, God also has the power to see this plan come about.

    I fail to see any point for or against Calvinism.

    I still see no problem. However....as seen before on other threads, If you play this model out all the way, and you make Gods Foreknowledge the driving force, this will trun in to hyper-Calvinism. We are not robots and God is not powerless. This model removes Gods Power and turns man into a robot in the mind of Gods foreknowledge.

    Before you can have a thought, you must have the power to have a thought. :)
    There is no way around this. Remove Gods love...and you still have a god. Remove God as judge...and you still have a god. Remove Gods knowledge and you still have a god. But you can never remove Gods Absolute controling power, for then God would not be God.

    Lets see if I got this right. We are saved before we are born...based on Gods absolute knowledge. Others are lost before they are born...based on Gods absolute knowledge. The saved cannot be anything but saved, or God realy did not see the end. The lost can never be saved, for then God would have not seen the end.

    Yep...This is Hyper-Calvinisim 101 The only thing that changes...H-C places God in control. You place "mans will" in control and God powerless to do anything about it.

    How does this hurt Calvinism?

    This was Gods plan.

    Let me ask you...

    What do you do with the passages that show God killing man?

    ooops. We just changed driving forces. Does God plan, or Does God act out what He saw? You cannot have both. :)


    END PART ONE....
     
    #30 Jarthur001, Jan 1, 2007
  11. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hello GordonSlocum,

    Indeed. Those that try to have a middle ground, are just using a logic in their haed that does not work out when you place it down on paper. There is only one that is controling salvation. It must be man or God.

    Agreed.

    I would not call it "nothing". Power without knowledge exist even in man. Place a 15 year old that has never drove, behind a wheel of a souped-up red sports car. Yet he does not KNOW the full power that rest in his foot. A child playing with a gun, would not know the power that rest in that trigger. The teen was still a person. The child was still a person.

    God could still be God, not knowing does not remove His Godhead. Fore...God could still control man at the moment He sees man do something. Like God could have seen Adam reach for the apple and God could have just at that moment for the 1st time learned about Adams wanting to sin and stopped it. Now this is not the picture we find in the Bible, but God could exist and Be a all POWERFUL being controling the world without knowing all things. In fact this is a view of Open-theist that is growing in the free-will camp. God is only a reacter in this view. Though this is a wrong view of God, God is still in control.

    This is just to show where your logic falls short. Knowing is not what makes God a God. His power and control is what makes God, the one and only God. Lets remove His power and will to control and see what happens.

    Lets say....God wants to place the Devil in hell. But the devil does not want to go there. With no power from God, how will God do this? God could KNOW He wants to do this for 1000s years, and still with no power what can God do about it? What rules over all and makes God who He is, would be Gods controling power.

    This again is not true. In a Open-theist model God can shape on a event only bases. I do not hold to Open-theist model, but this is to show that God would not be useless if this were to true.

    Absolute Knowledge...Yes. God Knows for God is in full control. God decrees it to happen and therefore knows it will happen. Our choice in time space and matter has nothing to do with it other then to let us know when it happened.

    Indeed. Its not hard to see that if God has a plan, God also has the power to see this plan come about.

    I fail to see any point for or against Calvinism.

    I still see no problem. However....as seen before on other threads, If you play this model out all the way, and you make Gods Foreknowledge the driving force, this will trun in to hyper-Calvinism. We are not robots and God is not powerless. This model removes Gods Power and turns man into a robot in the mind of Gods foreknowledge.

    Before you can have a thought, you must have the power to have a thought. :)
    There is no way around this. Remove Gods love...and you still have a god. Remove God as judge...and you still have a god. Remove Gods knowledge and you still have a god. But you can never remove Gods Absolute controling power, for then God would not be God.

    Lets see if I got this right. We are saved before we are born...based on Gods absolute knowledge. Others are lost before they are born...based on Gods absolute knowledge. The saved cannot be anything but saved, or God realy did not see the end. The lost can never be saved, for then God would have not seen the end.

    Yep...This is Hyper-Calvinisim 101 The only thing that changes...H-C places God in control. You place "mans will" in control and God powerless to do anything about it.

    How does this hurt Calvinism?

    This was Gods plan.

    Let me ask you...

    What do you do with the passages that show God killing man?

    ooops. We just changed driving forces. Does God plan, or Does God act out what He saw? You cannot have both. :)


    END PART ONE....
     
    #31 Jarthur001, Jan 1, 2007
  12. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hello GordonSlocum,


    I have been over this logic before showing where it does not work. Please read the other thread where this is covered.

    Peace ...:cool: :cool:

    ************

    I do not understand why so much time is put in by free-willers to limit Gods power, and give control to man. Who do they worship anyway? Its like the more power man has, the better things are. And...the less power God has..the better. I do not want a helpless God. I want a God in full control. I want a God I can always count on. I want a God that I can pray to, that has the power to change man. My God has this. May all prasie glory and honor go to My Great God.



    In Christ...James
     
    #32 Jarthur001, Jan 1, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2007
  13. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum New Member

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    Hi James, hope you had a very good Christmas and New Year. While we are miles apart in our theology, we are not miles apart in that we are saved, "Elect". Regardless of our differences which we are not going to change the comforting part is that we are both Elect regardless of our view. We both have a passion for the truth, we just see it differently and with passion.
     
    #33 GordonSlocum, Jan 1, 2007
  14. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Pardon me, but isn't the noun form of "believe" "BELIEF??" Did YOU notice that Paul never says that faith in Christ cannot be "in vain?" The weakness of free will is the weakness of our muddling of the terms belief and faith! It's like giving back conquored land, bro!

    Notice that the faith you describe "acts like" a Baptist -- doesn't just sympathize with it.

    This could be well versed in their doctrine of their daily walk. We would need a context by which define its meaning. But by itself it still would not mean saving faith in this sentence.

    Why?? It depends on what we are believing in Christ's life or Christ's death. Faith in Christ's death is eternally strong -- faith that by living His life we will be saved from spiritual hell on earth daily. Yeah, I agree with your context message. You admit there are "different uses." You got it!

    Gordon, there is an eternal thing to be believed unto salvation in the hereafter. If we believe that and repent, we HAVE eternal life. There is a temporal thing to be believed right here, right now. If we believe that we should life the Christlife, we are saved daily whereby our faith is increased. The first "belief" described here is "JUSTIFICATION," the latter is "SANCTIFICATION."

    You're not totally wrong -- you're just not totally right, either. :D

    skypair
     
    #34 skypair, Jan 1, 2007
  15. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Rippon, Sorry you believe men's words and not God's. In fact, foresight does NOT deny election.

    You're saying that no one is saved, my friend! Of the God really didn't know something! :D

    He foresaw a lie?? Actually, many believed! And you say "not one."

    And what was God thinking at that point that He foresaw that no one would believe? Was He thinking, "Ooh, I made a mistake. I better elect some of these people?" :laugh:

    No, rippon, that's a silly scenario! How about God creates man to be His own phyical company in eternity. He knows men will sin and knows He will provide a way for reconciliation. He knows that some will receive that reconciliation and it is them who will love Him that God "elects" to His purposes.

    Election is NOT to salvation, as you and Calvin suggest, but to purpose.

    Did you marry a woman that didn't love you? Big mistake, eh? God foreknows who will love Him and chooses them.

    skypair
     
    #35 skypair, Jan 1, 2007
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  16. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    James,

    We worship a heavenly Father. You are worshipping an impersonal power, my friend -- a TOTAL sovereign Who could care less what is your will or your prayers or your destiny. You worship a God whose only purpose is His Own glory.

    I am completely sad for you. You cannot see God as loving Father nor as doting Husband who allows us our wills and things we want while "under His roof."

    skypair
     
    #36 skypair, Jan 1, 2007
  17. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Let it be showen once again, that free-willism is based more on emotion and not the Bible. Where as Calvinist believe the Bible when it says God chooses by His good pleasure. Yes...one can find wording just like this each time the Bible talks of election.

    Yet you are wrong to think this makes God impersonal. The atonement was for those He loves. This is very personal. Salvation is a love relationship based on God loving me 1st, before I ever knew of Him.



    In Christ...James
     
    #37 Jarthur001, Jan 1, 2007
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Could you give the scriptures where it say this?
     
    #38 Amy.G, Jan 1, 2007
  19. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Amy, here's one,

    Matt 11, Jesus had just finished pronouncing judgment on Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum, because they had witnessed his mighty works, yet had not repented.

    Then he spoke to the Father:

    25. I thank Thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and the prudent, and has revealed them unto babes.

    26. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    Jesus is saying that the Father had chosen to hide some things from one group and reveal them to another for one reason: It seemed good in the Father's sight. That is, it gave him pleasure.

    Another:
    Phillipians 2:13 "For it is God who works in you both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure ."

    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

    Jonathan Edwards said "the will of God is called his mere pleasure."

    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.
     
    #39 Tom Butler, Jan 1, 2007
  20. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Tom, I guess we interpret these scriptures differently.
    Matthew 11:25....Jesus is saying that the Father hid some things from the wise (worldly wisdom, or people who thought they knew it all) and revealed to the spiritual babes, who were gaining wisdom from God not man. This is not saying God is pleased to choose some over others for salvation. He is pleased to confound the wise.

    Phil. 2:13...Paul is speaking to already saved Christians about the indwelling Spirit who gives us the will to do His will and to do good things. Not talking about God being pleased to choose the elect.

    Eph. 1:5...Agree that the adoption of us as "sons" through Jesus was God's pleasure, although we disagree on on how that happens.

    Is. 46:10...Declares that God has foreknowledge of everything from beginning to end and He will do anything that pleases Him, because He is God. This says nothing about the elect.
    :)
     
    #40 Amy.G, Jan 1, 2007
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