Preterism and "This Generation"

Folks, I think I have shown conclusively that Revelation was written before 70 A.D. This means that the TIME STATEMENTS (shortly, near, and quickly) had real ORIGINAL AUDIENCE RELEVANCE.

Original audience relevance is where we start, guys. Everything else has to be adjusted to this factor, else the words of scripture can mean anything anyone wants them to. That's why I have tried to get Ed to deal with the historical markers in the Olivet Discourse that nail the "great tribulation" to the first century - no way to get around it.

The words "shortly" (Rev.1:1; 22:6), "near" (1:3; 22:10), and "quickly" (22:7,12,20) meant just what they say....to the original audience!!! Thus, we cannot stretch them to cover thousands of years! Do so would have made them IRRELEVANT to the original audience.

No historical event "near" to the late date of 96 A.D. could have fulfilled the prophecies of Revelation. Even the destruction Jeruslame suffered in 70 A.D. does not fit the bill, since the Temple's destruction was what marked the tribulation, and that happened in 70 A.D., before that generation had passed, exactly as Jesus predicted. Only the early date for Revelation makes sense of the book.

Warren

 

Correction! In my previous post I said, "Even the destruction Jerusalem suffered in 70 A.D. does not fit the bill..." I MEANT TO SAY "the destruction Jerusalem suffered in 136 A.D."

Here are the facts:

1. Jesus predicted the great tribulation would be fulfilled before "this generation" had passed, meaning before the THEN-PRESENT generation had passed.

2. 70 A.D. rises to the occasion on all counts!

3. 136 A.D. does not fit the bill, since the Temple's destruction was the defining event of the great tribulation.

4. 70 A.D. was less than forty years from the Olivet Discourse. Forty years is the Biblical precedent for the length of a generation.

5. Revelation was written shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. That's why chapters 17-18 POINT AHEAD to the Temple's destruction.

6. Futurism does not deal realistically with the time statements "shortly", "near", and "quickly".

7. Futuirism does not deal at all with the historical markers for the great tribulation - "holy place", "Judaea", "flee to the mountains", Jerusalem compassed with armies", "sabbath day", "on the housetop".

8. Neither Jesus not the inspired Apostles taught or implied a "rebuilt Temple" thousands of years from their time. We have no right to insert that teaching into the text of scripture.

9. We also have no right to claim "double fulfillment" or "type" whenever we get into a jam. Jesus said conclusively of 70 A.D., "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Lk.21:22)

10. The time statements must be honored, else we have teachings that are OUT OF CONTEXT.


I would ask that all on this list deal realistically with the 10 points I have given. No gaps, double fulfillments, types, postponements, delays, or denials. Deal with the above points in a straightforward manner that takes into account the critical factor of ORIGINAL AUDIENCE RELEVANCE.

Thanks,

Warren

 

Yeah, you can tell has nothing to say by his mini-replies. No exegesis, no exposition, and no refutation of the exegesis we provide (eschatologist and myself), just funny little quips which demonstrate that Ed knows his view is not scriptural at all. Dispensationalists usually run and hide when cornered on "this generation" and the time statements and the historical words, etc, etc, etc, and it's usually under some falsely humble and so-called spiritual pretense, with plenty of namecalling on the way out the door. Dr. Bob went bye-bye real quick when I tried to debate him on this subject, dismissing loads of exegesis that eschatologist and I gave like nothing to it, and making blanket statements like "absurd" and "heretical" on the way out of the discussion. Sad.

Ed, don't you have any exegesis and exposition to offer? I Thes.5:21 says to "prove all things". Please prove your view or stop replying altogether. You're making yourself out to be inept at exegeting the scriptures.

If you care to repent, then start by addressing the historical markers I listed that nail the great tribulation to the first century. They are:

"holy place"

"Judaea"

"flee to the mountains"

"Jerusalem compassed with armies"

"on the housetop"

"sabbath day"

This is your chance to show us what you've got, Ed. Else, preterism wins by an overwhelming amount of clear exegesis and exposition given thus far.

Warren

 

You should know that another futurist interpretation that should not be ignored takes "temple" at its spiritual meaning as the Church! It speaks of a time when the corruption of the visible institution reaches a level that would amount to an "abomination of desolation". A restored literal temple would not even be necessary to fulfill the prophecies in this theory.

It's not whenever we get into a jam. It is taking the time statements WITH the clear action, sense and scope statements, and not ovrly spiritualizing/symbolizing one or the other away as both preterists and pure futurists do.
AD70 was the days of vengeance for Jerusalem. But there is the rest of the world out there, which will have its day of vengeance as well. The preterist tries to make this AD70 as well, but has to stretch the action, sense and scope statements to bizarre limits to do this (e.g. Christ directly smote Nero and the whole Roman Empire as the prohecies (Dan.2:34, 35, 44, 7:9, 11, 12, 26, 27, 11:45, etc) said. Nero died before AD70, and the Roman Empire went on for centuries after that, but because they did cease sometime, as all leaders and nations do, so Christ has "put down all human rule"!) With that type of interpretation, you should not be so hard on the futurist handling of the time statements!

And as I have been saying, so must the action, sense and scope statements. You cannot uphold one like that and then throw the rest away (or butcher it like the example above).

The dual fulfillment does take into consideration the audience relevance. And it leaves the Bible as still a book that has relevance for us, its modern "audience". Boy, no "types" either? Then the whole system of prophecy, including the Messiah falls flat. The Jews should just continue looking to Moses, David and the Law (including the temple and sacrifices), because these aren't types of anything! No gaps, postponements, or delays either? Then Christ should have been born directly to Eve, when God gave Satan the prophecy about "her seed". (Then too, there would have been no "types"!)

 

Eric,

Double fulfillment makes Jesus a liar and a false prophet, since it says that he was wrong about "this generation". You can't double fulfill the word "this"! I think eshcatologist posted a good message about the word "this". It OBVIOUSLY meant the THEN-PRESENT generation. Again, you can't double fulfill a specifically pinppointed generation!

Warren

 

Ed,

It seems you are reluctant to deal with the historical markers I presented which pinpoint the great tribulation and second coming to the first century. Got ya! Your mini-replies and funny little remarks do nothing to show that you can accurately exegete the scriptures.

Warren

 

Folks, yyou're going to have to be honest with yourself about "this generation". The term implies two things:


1. That there were OTHER generations. Read Matt.1:1-17 to see those other generations!

2. A SPECIFIC generation. Obviously the THEN-PRESENT one. The word "this" means "pertaining to the present"!!!


Both of the above points prove Ed's funny definition of a 2000 plus year church age as the meaning of "this generation".

One more thing - this "interpreting the time statements through the action statements" theory is nutso. It's the action statements that must fall into the plainly stated parameters of the time statments, else we have every strange sort of doctrine you can imagine coming down the pike. And that's exactly what the futurist viewpoint has given us over the last two millenia. Every strange interpretation and newspaper exegesis you could ever imagine.

Prophecy has a proper historical context given in the time statements. We must remain consistent with how these words were used elsewhere in the New Testament....else, it's anything goes! Again, futurism has indeed produced "anything goes" over the last 2000 years. The reason is because they have made the time statements irrelevant.

Warren

 

24:21-22 (HCSB):
For at that time there will be great tribulation,
the kind that hasn't taken place since the beginning
of the world until now, and never will again!
22 Unless those days were cut short, no one would survive.
But because of the elect those days will be cut short.

The Revelation seems to speak of the destruction of
some 90% of the population of earth.
In 70AD the destruciton was limited only to the 3 Million
Jews in the Holy Land at the time. 1/3 were killed,
1/3 where marched off in chains to the slave markets
of the Roman Emprie. 1 Million survived. Enough survived
that in 135AD (figure out of my head which doesn't
remmber that good) the Jews rebelled again and the
rebellion was supressed by Rome again.
Sorry, this prophecy of Jesus was NOT fulfilled in
70AD. Preterism fails on this point.

IN 1223 the Pope allowed non-priests to pray:
"God spare us from the Hun". Genghus Khan
invades Russia killing tens of Millions of persons.
Sorry, the Great Tribulation has to be worse than
this. A million Jews dying is not worse than this.

1347-1351 - 25 Million Europeans (1/4 of the population)
killed by the Black Death (AKA: Black Plague, THE PLAGUE).
Sorry, the Great Tribulation has to be worse than
this. A million Jews dying is not worse than this.

1943-1945 - Hitler causes 6,000,000 Jews to die in Europe.
This is 1/3 of the worldwide Jews at the time.
Sorry, the Great Tribulation has to be worse than
this. A million Jews dying is not worse than this.

 

Colossians 1:26 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

the mystery hidden for ages and generations
but now revealed to His saints.

The Bible compares "ages" and "generations".

But when Ed does it Warren says:
// ... Ed's funny definition of a 2000 plus year
church age as the meaning of "this generation".//

 

Eschatologist: "As for the beloved brother Ed: He has already
been well sucked into the hole of this fabled futuristic
belief. I do not think he has the strength or wherewithal
to crawl out."

Interesting description of my 40-year journey with
God's Holy Written Word and the interpertative powers
of the Holy Spirit.

Ed's summary of Preterism:
God is dead.

 

He would not have been a liar; because when He said "this generation", it still would have been that generation. Another generation later repeating the same thing (to whom it would again be "then present") takes nothing away from that first generation.

I did't say interpret time statements through action statements. I said take them both together. You're the one who insists on subjecting one to the other, and you come up with just as many strange doctrines, as I mentioned above.
On one preterist site, trying to explain how the Church today is the Kingdom, rationalizes all the sin and corruption by sying since the Kingdom will go on on earth forever, the Church will reform, and these last 2000 years are the "Early stage" of "the healing of the nations". "In a very real sense, the New Covenant Church has only just begun". I find it amazing how NOW, 2000 years winds up being compressed into being considered a short period of time!

 

C. H. Spurgeon
(1834- 1892)
(On Matthew 24:21)
"For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred."

"The destruction of Jerusalem was more terrible than anything that the world has ever witnessed, either before or since. Even Titus seemed to see in his cruel work the hand of an avenging God. (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412)

"Truly, the blood of the martyrs slain in Jerusalem was amply avenged when the whole city became veritable Aceldama, or field of blood." (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412,413)

So Spurgeon, John Gill, John Owen, and 100's of other theologians teach that "God is dead"? You need to do some studying Ed. I recommend you start with history. Then read what our Baptist forefathers taught reguarding these verses before Darby and Van Impe got a hold of them.

 

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, i'll still hope in the pretribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

So, if Preterism is true, about 1,000 years ago
the new heaven & new earth started.
We on this old world must be in the eternal hell
made for the Chief Devil

 

Please Ed. You were taught the pre-trib rapture belief.

Sure would like to know where you get that 90% figure. Sure isn't true of past Christians. Perhaps you mean your local church.

Once again you show your lack of knowledge of what theologians clearly understood "heaven and earth" to represent. Again I will quote Spurgeon:

(On the New Heavens and Earth)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

You and Van Impe should spend some time in the Old Testament. It will help you interpret and understand the New.

 

Ed: ---------------------------------------------
i'll still hope in the pretribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.
-------------------------------------------------

Grasshopper: "Sure would like to know where you get that 90% figure. Sure isn't true of past Christians. Perhaps you mean your local church."

Obviously i don't have a couple of million dollars to do
a worldwide survey of the matter. Obviously i guessed.

 

Obviously. Most of what is in your posts seem to be guesses.

 

You want to talk about my good guesses
and your bad guesses? Or do you want to
talk about those who know they guessed
and what they guessed about COMPARED
to those who have no clue?

Ed: -------------------------------------------
BTW, I believed in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
-----------------------------------------------

Grasshopper: "Please Ed. You were taught the pre-trib rapture belief."

Yes, by the Holy Spirit.
Come on Grass, get real, I've been a Christian for 52
years - I know how to study the Bible for myself.

BTW, I would like to point out the
desperation of Grass'es comments. To concentrate
on a very minor point like "guessing how many
people beleive in pre-trib" shows desperation.
Anybody care to discuss "Preterism
and 'This Generation'?

"This Generation" means the whole Church
Age which has now gone
on 2004-33AD = 1,971 years.

 

"AGE" in the New King James Version (nKJV).

The KJV tends to confuse the Greek "aeon" /age/ and
Greek "cosmos" /world/ and calles them both "world".
So i'll use the nKJV for my word study on "age".
References to how old someone is (AKA: "age") have been eliminated.

* (star) denotes my conclusion to the
quoted verses.

Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest
is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

*souls shall be harvested at the end of this age

Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the end of this age.

Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come
forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came
to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"

Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

*Jesus is with us completely to the end of the age.
*the age has an end

Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses
and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

*people will have eternal life, in the age to come

Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."

Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
34. And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry
and are given in marriage.
35. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

*there is a future age when marriage is NOT, after resurrection from the dead

1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer
of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

*this age has a disputer

1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature,
yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age,
who are coming to nothing.

*the wisdom of this age will come to nothing
*the rules of this age will come to nothing

1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine on them.

*the god of this age is NOT Jesus, the Christ

Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age, according to the will
of our God and Father,

*this age is evil

Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might and dominion,
and every name that is named, not only in this age
but also in that which is to come.

*there is an age to follow this age

Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

* this age is dark

1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty,
nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives
us richly all things to enjoy.

* this age has rich people in it

Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Heb 6:5 (nKJV):
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

This great section on the Security of the Believer
speaks of an "age to come".
* there will be "good ... powers" in the age to come.

AGES in the KJV1769:

Eph 2:7 (KJV1769):
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches
of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

**There will be ages after this age.

Eph 3:5 (KJV1769):
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 3:21 (KJV1769):
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,
world without end. Amen.

Col 1:26 (KJV1769):
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages
and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

*There were ages before this age.
*ages are similiar to generations

 

Yes, I agree. It is desparation, to bring up as proof of one's position, the theory that most agree with your view. However YOU brought it up, not me.
So I agree, YOU are desparate.

 

Grasshopper: "It is desparation, to bring up
as proof of one's position, the theory that
most agree with your view."

I don't see how anybody could really believe that
something said in passing was offered in PROOF
of my position. Therefor I will probably be
discounting your ability to follow the debate.

Ed: ------------------
Obviously i guessed
----------------------

Grasshopper: "Obviously. Most of what is in your
posts seem to be guesses."

Unable to accept my concession of what i
was doing you provide
proof de facto: your main form of exercise is jumping
to conclusions. But nevertheless, i repeat
my whole post -- you know, the post that is 99% unaddressed.
The part that confused you has been removed.

Failure to address any of this post will be construed
by those who brought their minds with them to
to this debate to be a concession to
my understanding of the debate:

"This Generation" in the MOD of Jesus refers to the
whole of the Church Age.

(the Church Age
is item "zero" of the following outline
of time).

----------------------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse /MOD/, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, i'll still hope in the pretribulation rapture.