Preterism and "This Generation"

[Ed Edwards]

Warren: "Capitalization was done purely at the discretion of the translators."

I think it was the nKJV that gives both choices.
The HCSB lists only the small 'h'. Both translations
capatilize "He" when it refers to a member of the
Holy Trinity.

Warren: "There was only one prince in the prophecy - Messiah the Prince."

I count two: I call them Christ (Messiah) and Antichrist.

Warren: "Matt.24:29-31 plainly parallels what Paul taught in I Thes.4:15-17, ... "

I agree. Here is my understanding of Matthew 24.

This writing was by Ed:

------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
------------------------------
Note that Matthew 24:14 signs are NOT ending
at 70AD.

People still come claiming to be Messiah and/or Jesus - false prophets.
wars and rumors of wars happen 70AD to 2004AD.
Ethnos still rise up against ethnos, 70AD to 2004AD.
Some 44,000,000 marytrs, 70AD to 2004AD. -- over 28,000,000
in the 20th century (1901-2000).
Famines happen, 70AD to 2004AD, save in a few places like the
USofA.
earthquakes happen.
The one that endures to end shall still be saved, 70AD to 2004AD.

 

[Ed Edwards]

prewrittten by ed:

----------------------
The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Zion north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

 

[Grasshopper]

I refuse to waste the limited time God has given me
on checking out a few example on that board that are
misquoted. How many quotes have you checked there?
You know how to check it.

So you make a charge you can't back up with facts. Sounds like a false accusation to me.

As far as your "limited time". Please! How many hours do you use your valuable God given time on this board. Check the number of posts you're credited with. If you wish to make accusations at least be decient enough to provide proof.

13 [/b]But based on His promise, we wait for new heavens
and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell.
14 Therefore, dear friends, while you wait for
these things, make every effort to be found in peace
without spot or blemish before Him.[/b]

Give a positive exhortation to good works using
a Preterist interpertation of this passage.

We currently live in the New Heavens and Earth. See Is. 65 and 66.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Grasshopper: "We currently live in the New Heavens
and Earth. See Is. 65 and 66."

Isaiah 66:12 (HCSB):

For this is what the Lord says:
I will make peace flow to her* like a river,
and the wealth of nations like a flood;
you will nurse and be carried on [her] hip,
and bounced on [her] lap.[/b]

her = Jerusalem (66:11)

Sure

i see the peace flowing to Jerusalem
in this new Heaven and the new earth

This is NOT the descriptor of this
earth. I made a megabuck 1976-2000
because of war. Get real.

Prior to 1964, i though that the futurist
prophecy of the Bible showed that God
would interfer in the affairs of men
and tear up jack. In 1964 was the year
that mankind had the nuclear bombs to make
the book of Revelation look like a
Sunday School picnic. After 1964 i saw
that God will interfer in the affairs
of mankind to keep life from being
extinguished on Earth. (see also Matt 24:22)

 

[Warren]

Ed,

The problem with your chopped up view of the Olivet Discourse is that the Lord put the fulfillment of "all those things" (temple's destruction, coming of the Lord and the end of the age) under ONE AND THE SAME TIME PERIOD STATEMENT ("this generation". He really emphasized this FACT, saying it TWICE in the space of ten verses (Lk.21:22,32). So it was ALL or nothing. You can't seperate by thousands of years the Lord's coming from Jerusalem's desolatrion. All three facets of the disciples' question went HAND-IN-HAND.

And "this generation" was equal to a lifespan, i.e., the then-present generation of Jews Jesus preached to.

So you're in a real tight corner with nowehere to go but a past-fulfilled viewpoint.

Warren

 

[Grasshopper]

So Ed, are the new Heavens and New Earth in Is. 65 and 66 after the Millinium in your view?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Yes Grasshopper.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Warren: "So you're in a real tight corner with nowehere to go but a past-fulfilled viewpoint.

I'm not even sure preterism is Christian.
I'm sure it isn't Biblical.

 

[Warren]

Ed,

Please deal with my last exposition. Your chopped up view of the Olivet Discourse is clearly not the intent of Jesus, who put all three elements - the temple's destruction, the coming of the Lord and the end of the age - under one and the same timeframe statement of "this generation". We know that the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. It was all or nothing before that first century generation passed, and you can't say it was nothing, since all agree that Jerusalem and the temple were desolated in 70 A.D. Jesus directly linked his coming to that time, which he called "the tribulation of those days", without a hint of "double fulfillment" (that's something that dispensationalists, in desperatioon, have to say keep their view alive).

Ed, your funny little remarks show that you are wrong. Deal with the exposition I gave.

Warren

 

[Eric B]

Eric, you need to understand that it is your understanding of the details of prophecy that needs adjusting, not the clear time statements.

That's all you have in response to all I have said? So even though we do not see ALL of the prophecies COMPLETELY fulfilled in the world today (and even Josephus and other sources did not mention anything that fulfills some details, which we then just gloss over), we must throw out the the action, scope and sense statements in favor of only our understanding of the time statements. So we just spiritualize it all away (even though this still does ot match any real fulfillments; but rather stretches everything beyond a reasonable limit), and then claim victory in the debate; after all; you can't prove or disprove these "spiritual" realities (like you can with certain aspects associated with futurism; like date setting); you just "believe them by faith". Thus precisely what you accuse us of, you indesperation hide behind that to save your theory.
Since you are so concerned about what the atheists think; they have the biggest field day of all with that method of indoctrination; because it has been used so much over the centuries to pass off doctrines and practices as infallible (whether actually true or not) that one could not otherwise prove; and thus sway many into believeing almost anything. Yet there are clear sense and scope statements that negate some spiritual-only interpretation.

Like I've said; your position actually capitulates to the atheists (as well as the general philosophy of pop-culture), because what else do they want; but an allegorical reading of the Bible that conforms completely to their scientifical and social theories. So Christ is never coming back to do away with all the evil in the world for good; Christ "reigns" only as a spiritual platitude in man's heart. The next step: we're all "good"; and your path to Him/It is Christianity; mine is something else. We can create Heaven on earth through our utopian visions (either left wing or right wing). Likewise, the Creation, flood, parting of the Red Sea, the giving of the Ten Commandments and all other "appearances" of God; and all of the miracles of Christ (including the Resurrection), and salvation and damnation were "spiritual allegories" too. Therefore; I do not need to be a Christian.
Also, like the hybrid historicist/futurist Adventists and JW's who set dates, and when the clear action and sense elements of the prophecies obviously did not come to pass, they had to spiritualize the fulfillment to save their interpretation of the time aspect (1844 or 1914).

The problem is, people are prideful, so they reach for straws, and strain, twist and redefine the key terms to justify an inconsistent, preconcieved view.

But you can be accused of that, too.

without a hint of "double fulfillment" (that's something that dispensationalists, in desperatioon, have to say keep their view alive).

and there is no hint of "invisible, spiritual ONLY" fulfillment either. That clearly CONTRADICTS action sense and scope statements, but double fulfillment doesn't really contradict time statements (because it adds to the meaning, rather than diminishes it!

 

[Grasshopper]

So Ed if the heavens and Earth of Is. 65 and 66 occur after your millinium then what do you say of these:

Is 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

There are sinners and death and cursed in your New Heaven and Earth.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

Who will be building houses to live in? I thought we recieve Mansions that Jesus has prepared for us. Or is this referring to a different people?

Is 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Seed? You mean there will be repopulation in this New Heaven and Earth?

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Hey, that sounds like fun.

By the way, what happens to the Earth at Christs second coming in your view? Nothing? Or is it desroyed there as well?

 

[Grasshopper]

Eric,

1.where does the Bible describe what heaven is like in your view?

2.What happens to someone who dies today in your view and what kind of body do they have?

3.Without using physical/material terms how would you describe spiritual realities?

 

[Eric B]

Perhaps that God did in fact keep His word concerning the timing and fulfillment of His prophecies. Perhaps the church should grow the Kingdom instead of waiting for the rapture to rescue them from this world. Perhaps we should make this world a better place instead of taking the position of J Vernon Magee, "why polish the brass on a sinking ship."

Never complete? Preterism teaches it is complete. You seem to be still waiting on yours.

All dispensationalists do not take that approach. Most are actively spreading the Gospel, and we make our surroundings better by being examples of Christ to the world; but realize that it is Christ who is the only one who can make the world a better place and establish and grow the kingdom. The Church's primary mission is to get people READY for eternity; not to themselves establish a "physical" earthly Kingdom (while you deny Christ would ever establish one). Man has tried for thousands of years, and even the Church has tried and claimed to do this for almost 2000 years, but never has been able to accomplish it. So you end up basically doing exactly what you chide us for doing: throwing the ultimate fulfillment off into the future. In fact; you throw it even FURTHER into the future than us: as one site speculates on life after "10,000" or "1,000,000 years of victory" (NOW what about all those time statements that said it was ALL [—or nothing, as Warren emphasizes] to happen in their generation?) The difference is, we believe it will be done supernaturally by Christ. Your view echoes the secular view that man can do it if given enough time. But if man has not been able to do it all of this time; then what makes you think that somewhere in more thousands and billions of years he will finally accomplish it? (and before destroying himself first!)

Anyway, your view still says that we have to die to escape this world and go to the true presence of God and perfect "kingdom", so ultimately it can be taken the same way. But at least in our view, Christ comes back to redeem this physical creation, rather than just abandoning it for good (as if the gnostics were right all along), and only taking individual souls out of it (at death) forever.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Warren: "Please deal with my last exposition."

I"m waiting for you to have a full deck.

Warren: "Your chopped up view of the Olivet Discourse is
clearly not the intent of Jesus, who put all three
elements - the temple's destruction, the coming of
the Lord and the end of the age - under one and
the same timeframe statement of "this generation".//

I've already shown that Jesus used the retorical
device of the the polysndeton 'Kai' ("and") to set
forth His plan for the ages. That plan seperates the
rapture/resurrection/gathering at the end of the age from
the temple's destruction. I'm sure the tribulation age
temple will be destroyed as well exactly 3½-years after
the antichrist is revealed and exactly 3½-years
before the glorious coming of our blessed Lord and Savior:
Jesus, Lord of the Future, not of the past.

I believe in a literal 1,000 year reign on a physical earth
on the physical throne of David in the physicla city of
Jerusalem. This will happen in the future, it did not happen
in the past.

God's plan for the ages was not to rapture a few tens of thousands
of Christians in 70AD but to rapture HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of
Christians, maybe even BILLIONS at a later time.

Jesus rose in victory over the grave less than two
of God's days ago. I'll not be tempting God by saying that
God is slow.

2 Peter 3:14-15a (HCSB):

Therefore, dear friends, while you wait for these things,
make every effort to be found in peace without spot
or blemish before Him.
15 Also, regard the patience of our Lord as
an opportunity for salvation, ...

If Preterism is true, would this have to say this?

Therefore, dear friends, while you REFLECT ON these things,
make every effort to be found in peace without spot
or blemish before Him.
15 Also, DISregard the patience of our Lord ...


Grasshopper: "By the way, what happens to the Earth at
Christs second coming in your view? Nothing? Or is
it desroyed there as well? "

[sarcasm]the earth gets destroyed fully without leaving
a trace that it ever happened, just like in preterism.[/sarcasm]

 

[Ed Edwards]

Open statement to Grasshopper:

I will not respond to any of your verses anymore
unless you can practice the common curtesy
of noting the version of the Bible
you got it from.

This note constitutes a second warning in
the spirit of Titus 3:10.

 

[Grasshopper]

Man has tried for thousands of years, and even the Church has tried and claimed to do this for almost 2000 years, but never has been able to accomplish it. So you end up basically doing exactly what you chide us for doing: throwing the ultimate fulfillment off into the future.

No, you keep assuming a physical Kingdom, I don't.

The difference is, we believe it will be done supernaturally by Christ. Your view echoes the secular view that man can do it if given enough time

I know of no preterist who believes this. All is done through the power of the Holy Spirit. Man , preterist or not, can accomplish nothing apart from Christ.

But if man has not been able to do it all of this time; then what makes you think that somewhere in more thousands and billions of years he will finally accomplish it? (and before destroying himself first!)

I don't.

Anyway, your view still says that we have to die to escape this world

Do you plan on escaping death?

But at least in our view, Christ comes back to redeem this physical creation, rather than just abandoning it for good

Really? I think Ed would disagree as would most futurist. God destroys this Earth and the heavens along with it. How else would you need a new physical Heaven and Earth?

Or does He redeem it then destroy it? After all II Peter 3 is to be taken literally.

 

[Grasshopper]

Open statement to Grasshopper:

I will not respond to any of your verses anymore
unless you can practice the common curtesy
of noting the version of the Bible
you got it from.

This note constitutes a second warning in
the spirit of Titus 3:10.

As I stated earlier KJV.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Is. 65:20 (KJV1769):

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man
that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an
hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years
old shall be accursed

Grasshopper: "There are sinners and death and cursed in your New Heaven and Earth."

There are no 99-year-old infants in your New Heaven
and new Earth.

IS. 65:21 (KJV1769):

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

Grasshopper: "Who will be building houses to live in?
I thought we recieve Mansions that Jesus has prepared for us.
Or is this referring to a different people?

People. Mansions built by God are in heaven,
houses are on earth.

IS 16:22 (KJV1769):

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Grasshopper: "Seed? You mean there will be repopulation
in this New Heaven and Earth?"

Yes. There will be also righteousness.

Is 16:23-24 (KJV1769):

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Grasshopper: "Hey, that sounds like fun."

YOu forgot your smiley face.
Try the UUB code [sarcasm], be sure to un-sarcasm
with [/sarcasm]

 

[Ed Edwards]

Eric B: " ... Christ comes back to redeem this
physical creation, rather than just abandoning it for good.

Amen, Brother Eric B.

Those who don't see the 1,000 year physical/literal
Millinnial Kingdom of Christ in 2 Peter 3: 10
just don't understand the prophetic semi-colen ( ; )

2 Peter 3:10 (HCSB):

But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief;
on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise,
the elements will burn and be dissolved, and
the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.

 

[Eric B]

1.where does the Bible describe what heaven is like in your view?

Rev. 21 & 22

2.What happens to someone who dies today in your view and what kind of body do they have?

In the next instance, they hear His voice and rise, at the first or second general resurrection. I know the "traditional position" is the spirit rising and floating off the heaven is saved, or Hell if not saved. I have to admit that your position is more consistent; in that the "orthodox" futurist position is that they enjoy or suffer all of the joys or pains of heaven or hell in "real time" (e.g. John would count exactly 1908 years "in the presence of the Lord"), are resurrected out of it and judged at definite times in our yet future, and then cast back into the place they already had been for as long as milennia. Quite redundant. Before Christ's death, the righteous were in a "paradise" that was in the same hades as the fiery torture chamber for the unrighteousness, and all Christ did was just carry them and the whole region up to "heaven". But all of this is speculation based largely on a purely literal interpretation of Lazarus and the Rich Man (you should be the first to see this as a metaphorical reference to Israel vs. the Gentiles) and some references of Sheol in the OT. But while the nature of life after death was not completely revealed in the OT, in the NT the resurrection was made our only hope of eternal life.
While this is not really the place for a discussion of the state of the dead, suffice it to say, I would pretty much go with Athenagoras' (Chapter XVI--Analogy of Death and Sleep, and Consequent Argument for the Resurrection)
explantion:

This is what is meant by the doctrine of the resurrection; and, looking to this, we both await the dissolution of the body, as the sequel to a life of want and corruption, and after this we hope for a continuance with immortality, not putting either our death on a level with the death of the irrational animals, or the continuance of man with the continuance of immortals, lest we should unawares in this way put human nature and life on a level with things with which it is not proper to compare them. It ought not, therefore, to excite dissatisfaction, if some inequality appears to exist in regard to the duration of men; nor, because the separation of the soul from the members of the body and the dissolution of its parts interrupts the continuity of life, must we therefore despair of the resurrection. For although the relaxation of the senses and of the physical powers, which naturally takes place in sleep, seems to interrupt the sensational life when men sleep at equal intervals of time, and, as it were, come back to life again, yet we do not refuse to call it life; and for this reason, I suppose, some call sleep the brother of death, not as deriving their origin from the same ancestors and fathers, but because those who are dead and those who sleep are subject to similar states, as regards at least the stillness and the absence of all sense of the present or the past, or rather of existence itself and their own life.

So while the Millerites (SDA's, other Sabbathkeepers, and JW's) may be wrong in saying that the person "ceases to exist", they are in a spiritual sense "alive", but still, a physical resurrection is necessary to get all their senses back.

3.Without using physical/material terms how would you describe spiritual realities?

For one thing, you can just SAY that the terms "represent" spiritual realities. After all, the Bible is supposed to interpret itself. Even still, the spiritual realities of the eternal kingdom are clear enough without applying "physical/material" terms. That's why they are taken to be clear action, sense and scope indicators (though some to a limited extent can be metaphorical). If the kingdom is just "happiness, peace and joy in Christ", and thus we have this now, then why say we rule the world with Christ. Why say no more tears? There were other tears in life besides just being under the shadow of the Law until the temple was destroyed in AD70. Anyone can understand "You will have peace and joy in Me, and you will have a secure salvation freed from the curse of the Law, and now the whole world is yours to 'conquer' through the Gospel'". No; we're offered all that and more. Once again; even in your view there is still something after this; in two ways: The Kingdom expanding by the Church on earth in billions of years to come; and for each person, death and passage into the spiritual realm.

As for your statement to Ed about Isaiah 65 and 66; this was partly conditional on physical Israel being the vehicle through which God establishes the Kingdom. The state of the world remains largely unchanged; only is ruled over by God and his [physical] nation. But as we know, Israel failed, and the lesson was that natural man only sins (and eventually dies anyway) and is thus not fit for the Kingdom. So regeneration and later resurrection was necesary. This changes some of those descriptions from the OT. We do not see any of that in Rev. 21-22 however, though I do know your view tries to read it into statements like "healing of the nations". (It does not say an initial healing of unconverted people would be ongoing for eternity; but rather describing the universal state of life then).
So those chapters in Isaiah would now more fit our view of the Milennium. God increases the Kingdom in stages. Fist spiritual kingdom only (now); then visible rule in old earth, then entirely new earth. Your view's present Kingdom, future expansion of the Kingdom throughout the earth, and ultimate perfection of heaven after death is just a rehashing of the same thing.