Preterism and "This Generation"

[Warren]

Eric,

The details did happen in the first century. What do you have a problem seeing today??

Here it. Very simple. The disciples asked when the Temple would be destoyed, along with the Lord's coming and the end of the age. All three elements were CLOSELY RELATED. That is why Jesus answered them by saying that ALL, ALL, ALL, ALL, ALL, ALL, ALL those things would be fulfilled in the SAME TIME PERIOD ("this generation"). Eric, that's what he said in very plain speech!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can't say one of those things happened in the first century but we're still waiting 2000 years later for the other two elements. And I know you don't subscribe to Ed's "church age" definition of "this generation". So what generation? OBVIOUSLY, OBVIOUSLY, OBVIOUSLY the then-present generation.

If you don't understand how various details were fulfilled then go back and study the Old Testament some more, and also Josephus. BUT DON'T CHANGE AND REDEFINE THE TIMING for Pete's sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sun,moon and stars falling and going black was Old Testament metaphoric language for the destruction of kingdoms...a day of the Lord for sure upon such ancient kingdoms as Judah, Babylon, Edom, Egypt, etc.. It was Judaea and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. So there is one detail taken care of for you.

All the birth pangs LED UP TO the compassing of Jerusalem with armies and it's desolation. Unfortunately, dispensationalists have panned the birth pangs out over two millenia. Bad teaching. So there is a bag of details worked out for you with good Bible exposition.

The "times of the Gentiles" is not the church age, as Ed resorts to saying for everything. Rev.11:2 is THEE parallel to Lk.21:24, and it tells us exactly how long the time of the Gentiles was (forty two months). So there's another detail worked out for you by comparing scripture.

Jesus implied that there would be OTHER tribulations after the end-time, 70 A.D. tribulation - read Matt.24:21 ("no, nor ever shall be"). Another detail cleared up for you. No perfect world after Jesus returned.

Jesus said he would sit on the "throne of his glory" (Matt.19:28; 25:31) when he returned, which is in heaven. So the dispensational scenario of Jesus sitting on a buig chair in hot, dusty Jerusalem one day is a false teaching. So there is another detail cleared up for you.

Jesus never taught a "rebuilt temple". So there's another detail you don't ever have to worry about again.

Eric, Jesus said about 70 A.D., "For these be the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS which are written may be fulfilled." (Lk.21:22). Do you believe him or not. The very context speaks directly of what befell the Jews in 70 A.D., and even dispensationalists agree on that.

Now, if you are going to wipe all this plainer than plain exposition out with "double fulfillment" then have a nice trip. Keep waiting for that rebuilt temple. Keep looking for the stars to fall. Keep looking for a European antichrist to sign a seven year peace treaty with Israel. Keep looking for a micro-chip mark of the beast and a one-world government. But the Bible teaches none of those things. Hear that, Ed??

Warren

 

[Grasshopper]

quote:
1.where does the Bible describe what heaven is like in your view?
Rev. 21 & 22

Can you pinpoint specific passages?

For one thing, you can just SAY that the terms "represent" spiritual realities. After all, the Bible is supposed to interpret itself.

Yes, but to my knowledge the Bible nowhere takes this approach. Even in cases where we would agree physical terms "represented" spiritual realities. It never says "this represents that".

Why say no more tears?

Because that would be a Jewish idiom in my opinion. Not literal.

As for your statement to Ed about Isaiah 65 and 66; this was partly conditional on physical Israel being the vehicle through which God establishes the Kingdom.

I don't think you can prove this anywhere in scripture. Where is this conditional promise made? The Kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles.

So regeneration and later resurrection was necesary.

Why do you need resurrection if you have regeneration. In my opinion they are the same thing.Resurrection was a promise made to the Old Covenant fathers. But here we get into physical vs spiritual. I believe Biblical Eschatology is the last things of Old Covenant Israel. Those who hold a futuristic view believe eschatology is divided between the Old Covenant, Church Age and the End of the World. Thus making it the study of 3 last things.

 

[Eric B]

No, you keep assuming a physical Kingdom, I don't.

But it's your view that keeps talking about the Kingdom expanding and filling the world. That basically means it eventually becomes sort of a physical kingdom, or at least more like such.

I know of no preterist who believes this. All is done through the power of the Holy Spirit. Man , preterist or not, can accomplish nothing apart from Christ.

But it still is a parallel. Man, even with the power of the Holy Spirit has still not been able to do it for almost 2000 years. That's because the power of the Holy Spirit is to regenerate US, and enable us to live for Christ; not physically take over the world. If you say it will eventually happen in the future; then apparently, God would at that time be doing something He has not been doing for 2000 years, and thus you still have a future completion of fulfillment.

Do you plan on escaping death?

If Christ comes back first (1 Cor. 15:51, 1 Thess. 4:17). But either way, we still "escape", and my point was that your side keeps chiding futurism for its belief that we ever "escape" this world.

Really? I think Ed would disagree as would most futurist. God destroys this Earth and the heavens along with it. How else would you need a new physical Heaven and Earth?

Or does He redeem it then destroy it? After all II Peter 3 is to be taken literally.

There are differing views within futurism. Basically, as I said, the old world is ruled during the Millenium, and then it is destroyed after the final rebellion at the end. All of this can be seen as part of the "Day of the Lord", thus explaning the 2 Pet. passage. And when I say "redeemed", I meant the physical realm: in other words, the universe we know of will go on; while the earth, and perhaps other bodies in it, may be destroyed and reshaped, as well as perhaps even the laws of nature changed to perfection.
Even secular string theory says this can happen instantaneously! (discussed at the end of my Revelation page). The differene is that God will be in control of it, instead of random chance.

 

[Grasshopper]

But it's your view that keeps talking about the Kingdom expanding and filling the world.

Yes in the spirtual realm through believers.

If you say it will eventually happen in the future; then apparently, God would at that time be doing something He has not been doing for 2000 years, and thus you still have a future completion of fulfillment.

I would say Christianity has spread quite a bit since AD30.

If Christ comes back first (1 Cor. 15:51, 1 Thess. 4:17).

Context of I Cor 15 is spiritual death.

Basically, as I said, the old world is ruled during the Millenium, and then it is destroyed after the final rebellion at the end.

So it is redeemed then destroyed?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Warren: "Unfortunately, dispensationalists have panned
the birth pangs out over two millenia."

I think God did the panning.
For example:

Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.


Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
"The doctrine of the Saviour
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

 

[Eric B]

Can you pinpoint specific passages?

The stuff we've been talking about. Such as no more tears (v. 4; etc).

Yes, but to my knowledge the Bible nowhere takes this approach. Even in cases where we would agree physical terms "represented" spiritual realities. It never says "this represents that".

Yes it does. For instance, it clearly tells us the heads and horns of the beasts are kings (i.e. in a political power); for instance. so no speculation is needed, and thus we have had very few who took this literally.

Because that would be a Jewish idiom in my opinion. Not literal.

OK, you've shown where mountains and other symbols are figurative; but do you have proof that this was a Jewish idiom made SPECIFICALLY about the Law?

I don't think you can prove this anywhere in scripture. Where is this conditional promise made? The Kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles.

That's precisely what I was saying. So some of the details in the OT prophecy change. Physical Israel broke the covenant, so that picture based on their rule in the Kingdom was conditional. God turned to a spiritual kingdom of all peoples instead.

Why do you need resurrection if you have regeneration. In my opinion they are the same thing. Resurrection was a promise made to the Old Covenant fathers.

But the NT promises both. So they are distinct, and are the same only if you assume the physical universe is just some to-be-abandoned training ground for heaven or hell, rather than the Creation God will one day redeem ("redeem" explained above).

Those who hold a futuristic view believe eschatology is divided between the Old Covenant, Church Age and the End of the World. Thus making it the study of 3 last things.

But once again, in your view, it would still be three: Old Covenant, life in the Church age, and heaven after you die. No matter what; this is just not the "end" of all for us.

 

[Grasshopper]

Is. 65:20 (KJV1769):

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man
that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an
hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years
old shall be accursed

Grasshopper: "There are sinners and death and cursed in your New Heaven and Earth."

There are no 99-year-old infants in your New Heaven
and new Earth.

I accept this as figurative language. You insist on literalism so why is their sin and death and curses in your New heaven and Earth?

Grasshopper: "Who will be building houses to live in?
I thought we recieve Mansions that Jesus has prepared for us.
Or is this referring to a different people?

People. Mansions built by God are in heaven,
houses are on earth.

So what is this New heaven and Earth that is after the Millinum? Who are these people? Why are they not in Heaven?

Grasshopper: "Seed? You mean there will be repopulation
in this New Heaven and Earth?"

Yes. There will be also righteousness.

So there will be reproducing humans after the Millinium?
Are Christians not righteous today?

Grasshopper: "Hey, that sounds like fun."

YOu forgot your smiley face.
Try the UUB code [sarcasm], be sure to un-sarcasm
with [/sarcasm]

You forgot to explain this verse in your view.

By the way have you found an example of the mis-representation of preteristarchive yet?

 

[Eric B]

Yes in the spirtual realm through believers.

But what exactly does that mean? What you and others have mentioned so far is us making the world a better place. That is still concerned with the physical realm.

I would say Christianity has spread quite a bit since AD30.

And much of it false throughout the ages. Still, not this future age when they finally get things more right.

Context of I Cor 15 is spiritual death.

No it's not! Paul speaks of "mortality" being swallowed up in 1 Cor. 15 and 2 Cor. 5. In fact, the entire CONTEXT of the entire chapter of First Cor. 15 is physical death!

So it is redeemed then destroyed?

As I just explained; physical objects (such as the earth) may be destroyed, but still a physical universe existing, and replenished. That is what I meant by "redeemed". This as opposed to just abandoning the physical universe to run its present course forever while only taking us out of it when we die, forever.

 

[Grasshopper]

Yes it does. For instance, it clearly tells us the heads and horns of the beasts are kings (i.e. in a political power); for instance. so no speculation is needed, and thus we have had very few who took this literally.

No, that won't work. That is a physical term describing a physical occurance. Not spiritual.

OK, you've shown where mountains and other symbols are figurative; but do you have proof that this was a Jewish idiom made SPECIFICALLY about the Law?

I think I have an example. Give me time it might take me a while. I'm not sure it necessarily refers to the Law maybe separation from God.

That's precisely what I was saying. So some of the details in the OT prophecy change. Physical Israel broke the covenant, so that picture based on their rule in the Kingdom was conditional. God turned to a spiritual kingdom of all peoples instead.

Man now I am confused. So you acknowledge a spiritual Kingdom but expect a physical in the future? So God went to plan B? Had the jews accepted their Messiah then God would have then destroyed the Heavens and the Earth?

But once again, in your view, it would still be three: Old Covenant, life in the Church age, and heaven after you die. No matter what; this is just not the "end" of all for us.

No, all the eschatology was fulfilled at the end of the Old Covenant.

I think Ed has himself in a noose with his belief that Is 65 and 66 refer to a period after the Millinium.

 

[Eric B]

The details did happen in the first century. What do you have a problem seeing today??

If you don't understand how various details were fulfilled then go back and study the Old Testament some more, and also Josephus. BUT DON'T CHANGE AND REDEFINE THE TIMING for Pete's sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not all of them were covered by Josephus. Even many of you differ or even confess not to know such items as the false prophet/man of sin, image of the beast, two witnesses, etc. There is just as much specilation in some areas in your view, as there is in futurism.

You can't say one of those things happened in the first century but we're still waiting 2000 years later for the other two elements.

No, it was typically, incompletely fulfilled then for the sake of that generation, but there will be a greater complete fulfillment in the future.

Sun,moon and stars falling and going black was Old Testament metaphoric language for the destruction of kingdoms...a day of the Lord for sure upon such ancient kingdoms as Judah, Babylon, Edom, Egypt, etc.. It was Judaea and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. So there is one detail taken care of for you.

I now accept those as metaphorical, but still it is the SCOPE that remains unfulfilled. Even the metaphorical view does not escape the fact that this final judgment was not just for Judea, but for all ungodly human rule.

Jesus implied that there would be OTHER tribulations after the end-time, 70 A.D. tribulation - read Matt.24:21 ("no, nor ever shall be"). Another detail cleared up for you. No perfect world after Jesus returned.

That is not what that says, and here you clearly read something into the text from thin air. If the world did end then, then "not ever shall be" would still be true. It does not say "there will still be tribulations, but they won't be this bad". Instead, we see tribulations that are worse that have ocurred, and this is another clear scope indicator that points to the future.

Jesus said he would sit on the "throne of his glory" (Matt.19:28; 25:31) when he returned, which is in heaven. So the dispensational scenario of Jesus sitting on a buig chair in hot, dusty Jerusalem one day is a false teaching. So there is another detail cleared up for you.

So He didn;t really "return" to earth at all. He remained in Heaven to rule. But then AD70 loses all of its significance anyway, because he took His throne in Heaven next to the Father right after His ascension in AD30 or 33. He began a spiritual-only presence in us through the Spirit shortly after.

Eric, Jesus said about 70 A.D., "For these be the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS which are written may be fulfilled." (Lk.21:22). Do you believe him or not. The very context speaks directly of what befell the Jews in 70 A.D., and even dispensationalists agree on that.

But there are days of vengeance for the rest of the world too, and that's what you keep leaving out.

Keep waiting for that rebuilt temple. Keep looking for the stars to fall. Keep looking for a European antichrist to sign a seven year peace treaty with Israel. Keep looking for a micro-chip mark of the beast and a one-world government. But the Bible teaches none of those things.

Except for the European antichrist, I don't believe all of those things may necessarily happen. (And even the identity of the antichrist could always turn out to be different). Some may; others like the mark of the beast will likely be symbolic (it is about allegiance). The stars I admit would be symbolic also. So the debate with me is not really about the literality of those items, (though with Ed and others it may be). It is about the reality of the return of Christ and the resurrection.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:

I think Ed has himself in a noose with his belief that Is 65 and 66 refer to a period after the Millinium.

OK, then
it refers to a literal/physical
millinnial kingdom.

But is double fulfilled and so happens
after the new heaven and the new earth.

 

[Grasshopper]

No it's not! Paul speaks of "mortality" being swallowed up in 1 Cor. 15 and 2 Cor. 5. In fact, the entire CONTEXT of the entire chapter of First Cor. 15 is physical death!

21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die , so in Christ all will be made alive.

Adam brought spiritual death/separation from God. Jesus restored that:

John 5: 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live .

You had those who were dead coming to life(resurrection) given back what they had lost in Adam.

Bedtime

I shall return

 

[Ed Edwards]

Grasshopper: "So God went to plan B? Had the jews
accepted their Messiah then God would have then
destroyed the Heavens and the Earth?"

Darn you learn quick

Actually God has options for men to decide upon.
So He has plans a, b, c, d, e, ...
there is no "God went to ... "

 

[Eric B]

No, that won't work. That is a physical term describing a physical occurance. Not spiritual.

Yes it is. What's physical about it? There is no person with 7 heads and 10 horns who are really kings. It is describing a political power, which spiritually is a "beast" (this describes its nature--thus spiritual). Just like God's kingdom is described as a stone which smashes it. Still, it tells us this clearly.

I think I have an example. Give me time it might take me a while. I'm not sure it necessarily refers to the Law maybe separation from God.

OK. I guess the whole thing with the Law was that it left people separated from God, so it is still connected.

Man now I am confused. So you acknowledge a spiritual Kingdom but expect a physical in the future? So God went to plan B? Had the jews accepted their Messiah then God would have then destroyed the Heavens and the Earth?

It wasn't "plan B" to God, though it appears like that to us, trapped in time. God knew all along Israel ruling in the present world would not work, so He wrote the lesson in history, and then went about planting the spiritual seed of the kingdom, and promising the restoration of the universe.

No, all the eschatology was fulfilled at the end of the Old Covenant.

And to us it is all fulfilled at the end of this age. Then the final fulfillment of the New Covenant is begun. Your view only differs in placing this after death.

 

[Eric B]

Adam brought spiritual death/separation from God. Jesus restored that:

John 5: 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live .

You had those who were dead coming to life(resurrection) given back what they had lost in Adam.

You just said Adam brought spiritual death/separation from God, and that Jesus restored that. So they are given back what they lost in Adam. Unless you are assuming that physical life IS separation from God (and thus evil and needs to be replaced wth spirit-only existence). This is the mistake of the gnostics.
And Christ's physical body was resurrected, not just His spirit. In fact, Christ was never spiritually dead to begin with, so this is all the more shown to speaking of physical death, which accompanied the spiritual death Adam earned.

 

[Warren]

Eric,

The context for the "tribulation" is the land of "Judaea" (Matt.24:16), not the entire planet. Therefore, your prespective of a broader tribulation is not according to the scripture, but, rather, preconcieved notions from Hollywoood and Hal Lindsey.

Ed, according to Col.1:23, the gospel had been preached to "every creature which is under heaven" at that time! So all that was necessary for the end to come was in place during that N.T. period. And many scriptures attest to the fact that the end was NEAR, not far, at that time. 2000 years is unteneable for every aspect of prophecy we have discussed so far.

Warren

 

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper: "So God went to plan B? Had the jews
accepted their Messiah then God would have then
destroyed the Heavens and the Earth?"

Darn you learn quick

Actually God has options for men to decide upon.
So He has plans a, b, c, d, e, ...
there is no "God went to ... "

So perhaps the book of Revelation is just one of many options depending on how man reacts.

So if the New heavens and New Earth happen at after His Coming and at the beginning of the Millinium, how do those still alive survive to repopulate the earth in the Millinium? God destroys the old H&E. Does Scotty beam them up to heaven before the earth is destroyed then transport them back down to the New heavens and Earth? Aye Captain.

 

[Grasshopper]

Unless you are assuming that physical life IS separation from God

No, that is not my view. That seems to be what you are saying. You want a physical resurrection to restore what was lost in Adam.
Separation from God is spiritual in nature.

I Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Is the Law still in effect? If not then sin has no strength thus death has no sting. This is clearly not speaking of physical death. More proof this text is spiritual death and resurrection.

Heb. 2:14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-- that is, the devil--

Did Christ accomplish this?

 

[Grasshopper]

Eric concerning Rev 21:4:

Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be {any} death; there will no longer be {any} mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

Kurt Simmons (The Consumation of the Ages") says : " The source of this passage (Rev 21:4) is Is 65:19, where it describes the cessation of the crying and sorrows associated with the nation's captivity and deportment to Israel.

Is 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Other OT refrences:

Psalm 137
1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.

Here the cause of weeping is deportation and exile.

John Gill says this:

yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion; they imitated the flowing stream by which they sat, and swelled it with their tears; they wept for their sins, which brought them thither; and it increased their sorrow, when they called to mind what privileges they had enjoyed in Zion, the city of their solemnities; where they had often seen the tribes of Israel bowing before and worshipping the God of Israel; the daily sacrifices and others offered up; the solemn feasts kept; the songs of Zion, sung by the Levites in delightful harmony; and, above all, the beauty of the Lord their God, his power and glory, while they were inquiring in his sanctuary: and also when they reflected upon the sad condition and melancholy circumstances in which Zion now was; the city, temple, and altar, lying in heaps of rubbish; no worship and service performed; no sacrifices offered, nor songs sung; nor any that came to her solemn feasts; see Lamentations 1:2,4,7,16 Psalms 42:3,4

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=ps&chapter=137&verse=001


Is 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Matthew Henry commenting on this says;

and sorrow and sighing shall flee away for ever, as the shadows of the night before the rising sun. Thus these prophecies, which relate to the Assyrian invasion, conclude, for the support of the people of God under that calamity, and to direct their joy, in their deliverance from it, to something higher. Our joyful hopes and prospects of eternal life should swallow up both all the sorrows and all the joys of this present time.

So he applies it historically and eternally.

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=isa&chapter=035


John Gill applies it to not only that time but also the church age and eternity.

and sorrow and sighing shall flee away;
which before attended them, through convictions of sin, but now removed by the discoveries and applications of pardoning grace and mercy; or what was occasioned by want of the divine Presence, now enjoyed; being come to Zion, they are made joyful in the house of prayer, and are satisfied with the marrow and fatness of Gospel ordinances, and continually hear the joyful sound of the Gospel itself: all this may be applied to the state of the saints in heaven; for the highway before described not only leads to Zion the church below, but to the Zion above, to the heavenly glory;

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=isa&chapter=035&verse=010


Under the New Covenant the causes of these sorrows are no more. I will grant you and agree that these could and probably do also apply to our eternal existence in heaven making them not only figurative but literal. However I would say their primary application is figurative.

 

[Grasshopper]

Eric

As for your statement to Ed about Isaiah 65 and 66; this was partly conditional on physical Israel being the vehicle through which God establishes the Kingdom.

Notice what Peter said:

II Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Here Peter is refering to Is 65 and 66 as a basis for his new Heaven and Earth. Unless Peter's New Heaven and New Earth are conditional as well or you can find another OT reference to a coming New H&E Peter was expecting the Is 65 and 66 Heaven and Earth. It was not conditional, if it was II Peter 3 is meaningless.