Preterism is the only honest way to understand bible prophecy

[Logos1]

Hello guys,

Have had to be away for a while with too much going on between work, vacation, hurricane clean up, etc, etc. Forum posting is one thing you don’t have to do and can give up. I will try to sneak in a few posts this week, then probably have to give it up for a while again. This was written in a hurry, but I think it will suffice to make the point beyond contention.

This post focuses on some of the various time statements indicating Christ would return in a short period of time.

Jesus says at various time and places in various ways he is coming soon—he leaves no doubt about it—in the life time of those living at that time.

Matthew 24:33-34

So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Matthew 10:23

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Seven times in the book of Revelation Jesus said he was coming soon as in

Revelation 22:20

…Surely I am coming soon." Amen.

The Apostles confirm this as in

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord….

And 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet…

Further in Daniel we are told to close the book because its time is not near then about 500 years later When Revelation is written we are told not to close the book because the time is near. Obviously God relates to us on a time scale we can relate to since 2,000 years have gone by which verifies we can’t be waiting on a future return of Christ and be consistent with these statements.

In summary, there is no honest way to read these statements and not realize that we have already had the return of Christ (at 70 AD) and it just came in a different way than we were expecting. Our choice is simple, align our thinking to the bible and realize the Second coming was different than what we have been taught or live in denial about his second coming and twist, distort, and live in denial and put his second coming sometime in the future. Myself I want to read the bible straight up and let the prophecy chips fall where they may. I'll accept the plan that God decided to work by and not twist it to suit my view.

When I look at the bible and just search for truth and not look at it with an agenda I have to realize the full Preterist view is the only way to understand bible prophecy and Christ’s Second Coming.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello guys,

Have had to be away for a while with too much going on between work, vacation, hurricane clean up, etc, etc. Forum posting is one thing you don’t have to do and can give up. I will try to sneak in a few posts this week, then probably have to give it up for a while again. This was written in a hurry, but I think it will suffice to make the point beyond contention.

This post focuses on some of the various time statements indicating Christ would return in a short period of time.

Jesus says at various time and places in various ways he is coming soon—he leaves no doubt about it—in the life time of those living at that time.

Matthew 24:33-34

So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Matthew 10:23

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Seven times in the book of Revelation Jesus said he was coming soon as in

Revelation 22:20

…Surely I am coming soon." Amen.

The Apostles confirm this as in

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord….

And 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet…

Further in Daniel we are told to close the book because its time is not near then about 500 years later When Revelation is written we are told not to close the book because the time is near. Obviously God relates to us on a time scale we can relate to since 2,000 years have gone by which verifies we can’t be waiting on a future return of Christ and be consistent with these statements.

In summary, there is no honest way to read these statements and not realize that we have already had the return of Christ (at 70 AD) and it just came in a different way than we were expecting. Our choice is simple, align our thinking to the bible and realize the Second coming was different than what we have been taught or live in denial about his second coming and twist, distort, and live in denial and put his second coming sometime in the future. Myself I want to read the bible straight up and let the prophecy chips fall where they may. I'll accept the plan that God decided to work by and not twist it to suit my view.

When I look at the bible and just search for truth and not look at it with an agenda I have to realize the full Preterist view is the only way to understand bible prophecy and Christ’s Second Coming.

While Jesus came in judgement in 70 ad...He will return on the last day visibly/ bodily as per several passages.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Logos1

Welcome back and I'm glad your safe.

You said.......

“In summary, there is no honest way to read these statements and not realize that we have already had the return of Christ (at 70 AD) and it just came in a different way than we were expecting.”

God’s Word is a Spiritual book........
1 Corinthians 2:13
“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

Therefore it can not be understood by simply “reading it”. It needs to be “revealed” to us.

And this line about “comparing spiritual things with spiritual”, is very interesting, because the ONLY spiritual thing on Earth, is the Bible.

So here we are being told to compare one part of the Bible, with what the rest of the Bible says.

And a few times in God’s Word we are told, that with the Lord “one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is one day”; So when the Bible tells us that Jesus is coming back soon, than we must realize God’s idea of “soon”, does not line up with our idea of soon.
--------------------------------------------------
There is a reason that “The Lord’s physical return to Earth”, is one of the five fundamental doctrines of the Church; And that is because it is one of our foundational beliefs.

In other words, we treat that “belief”, like a pillar of truth in the Bible and build our faith upon and around it.

 

[JesusFan]

Hello guys,

Have had to be away for a while with too much going on between work, vacation, hurricane clean up, etc, etc. Forum posting is one thing you don’t have to do and can give up. I will try to sneak in a few posts this week, then probably have to give it up for a while again. This was written in a hurry, but I think it will suffice to make the point beyond contention.

This post focuses on some of the various time statements indicating Christ would return in a short period of time.

Jesus says at various time and places in various ways he is coming soon—he leaves no doubt about it—in the life time of those living at that time.

Matthew 24:33-34

So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Matthew 10:23

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Seven times in the book of Revelation Jesus said he was coming soon as in

Revelation 22:20

…Surely I am coming soon." Amen.

The Apostles confirm this as in

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord….

And 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet…

Further in Daniel we are told to close the book because its time is not near then about 500 years later When Revelation is written we are told not to close the book because the time is near. Obviously God relates to us on a time scale we can relate to since 2,000 years have gone by which verifies we can’t be waiting on a future return of Christ and be consistent with these statements.

In summary, there is no honest way to read these statements and not realize that we have already had the return of Christ (at 70 AD) and it just came in a different way than we were expecting. Our choice is simple, align our thinking to the bible and realize the Second coming was different than what we have been taught or live in denial about his second coming and twist, distort, and live in denial and put his second coming sometime in the future. Myself I want to read the bible straight up and let the prophecy chips fall where they may. I'll accept the plan that God decided to work by and not twist it to suit my view.

When I look at the bible and just search for truth and not look at it with an agenda I have to realize the full Preterist view is the only way to understand bible prophecy and Christ’s Second Coming.

ONLY possible IF we take in a spitual sense ALL of the prophecies that tell us that when Christ returns there will be a Kingdom of God fully set up on this earth!

 

[thomas15]

according to Logos1

for about the first 1900 years of church history, there have basically not been any honest students of Bible prophecy. This makes Logos1 very special.

 

[thomas15]

not to change the subject, but before an individual can embrace preterism, they first must accept covenant (replacement) theology so that they can apply the covenants and promises given by Jehovah specifically to the Israelites now are the property of the Gentile church. If you don't hold to replacement scheme, then it is difficult to see how believers in the church age can be the end user of the promises in Gen ch 15 and numerous other places.

To stay current on what the modern day replacement crowd is talking about, I sometimes check out the PB forum site. Even those well learned men who hold the reformed view can struggle to give concise definitions and clear Biblical teaching for the reformed view. I just noticed the definition of self inflicted and unintentional irony posted there in a thread titled "Is there such a thing as "covenant theology for dummies"

Hello....

 

[Logos1]

While Jesus came in judgement in 70 ad...He will return on the last day visibly/ bodily as per several passages.

Iconoclast,

You are right he did come in judgment of Jerusalem in 70 AD. However, there is not one single verse in the bible that says he will return in bodily form. Wishful thinking—not biblically supported.

 

[Logos1]

There is a reason that “The Lord’s physical return to Earth”, is one of the five fundamental doctrines of the Church; And that is because it is one of our foundational beliefs.

In other words, we treat that “belief”, like a pillar of truth in the Bible and build our faith upon and around it.

Still Learning I’m glad myself and give thanks to God for seeing us through it.

You are definitely on to something insightful Still learning when you said

There is a reason that “The Lord’s physical return to Earth”, is one of the five fundamental doctrines of the Church; And that is because it is one of our foundational beliefs.

This kind of circular logic makes its own doctrines based on desires, tradition, and hocus pocus, and doesn’t need any biblical support either. Ain’t it great you can have any foundational belief you want. A lot of people do it too—so it must be right.

 

[Logos1]

What no verses?

ONLY possible IF we take in a spitual sense ALL of the prophecies that tell us that when Christ returns there will be a Kingdom of God fully set up on this earth!

Jesus Fan I had hoped by now you would have matured into making biblical support of some sort for your claims, but I see still you still live in your own religion where your bible says whatever is convenient for you at the moment. Since we obviously don’t read the same bible (mine has no mention of Christ setting up a literal, physical Kingdom on earth) I’ll leave you to your own bible, religion, and beliefs. Enjoy my friend.

 

[Logos1]

for about the first 1900 years of church history, there have basically not been any honest students of Bible prophecy. This makes Logos1 very special.

Thomas you are too kind my brother. I appreciate your sweet thoughts though. Here’s some love back your way.

 

[Logos1]

To stay current on what the modern day replacement crowd is talking about, I sometimes check out the PB forum site. Even those well learned men who hold the reformed view can struggle to give concise definitions and clear Biblical teaching for the reformed view. I just noticed the definition of self inflicted and unintentional irony posted there in a thread titled "Is there such a thing as "covenant theology for dummies"

Hello....

Thomas it appears you have a lot to learn about Preterism. There is no such thing as replacement theology except in the mind of those who are confused about it.

Jesus never said he was going to replace the Old Covenant he said he was going to fulfill it. It served its place, it had its time, and it ended as scheduled with the coming of the New Covenant. Think of it as the Old Covenant being the caterpillar and the New Covenant being the Butterfly. The butterfly didn’t replace the caterpillar, the butterfly was the evolution of the caterpillar. The butterfly was the fulfillment of the caterpillar. Something better.

Which begs the question is there such a thing as fulfillment theology for dummies.

Hello…..

 

[Logos1]

Looks like the verses posted at the beginning of this thread go unchallenged

Well after 5 posts we don’t have one verse cited that says Christ would return a long time in the future. Not one verse cited where Christ says he would return in bodily form. Not one verse cited where Christ said he would set up a physical kingdom on earth.

Hmmm, if there were any such verses to be found you think by now someone would have sorta, kinda, found them. That just one such verse could be pointed to as proof. Just one. Just one little verse.

Mean while Preterists can stand on a New Testament full of references to the soon return of Christ. Looks like a cased closed for any honest reading of the bible don't you think.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast,

You are right he did come in judgment of Jerusalem in 70 AD. However, there is not one single verse in the bible that says he will return in bodily form. Wishful thinking—not biblically supported.

Job 19:25
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Do you believe He will just remain in the other realm...sort of hovering over the new jerusalem that comes down?

 

[DHK]

In summary, there is no honest way to read these statements and not realize that we have already had the return of Christ (at 70 AD) and it just came in a different way than we were expecting.

When I look at the bible and just search for truth and not look at it with an agenda I have to realize the full Preterist view is the only way to understand bible prophecy and Christ’s Second Coming.

Concerning the Coming of Christ:

The SDA's made the same kind of statement.
The J.W.'s made the same kind of statement.
A sect based out of London said that Christ would return in 1987 to a hill top in Kenya.
Harold Camping has made the same kind of statements.

The Preterists are no different than all of the above and many more date-setters. In light of Jesus strict command not to set a date for his coming we know that you are in error. It is false teaching according to the very words of Jesus.

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Matthew 24:36)

One chapter later he repeated himself:
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Matthew 25:13)

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Mark 13:32)

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6-7)

There is no evidence that Christ came in 70 A.D. That is one of the major downfalls of Preterism. To state a fact that they cannot prove is actually quite absurd. It makes no logical sense. It is as if one declares that the planet Pluto is made of diamond. I can state it, and you can't disprove me. Why? You can't see Pluto. Therefore I am right by default, and you are wrong. This is the logic that you are using.

 

[Logos1]

Do you believe He will just remain in the other realm...sort of hovering over the new jerusalem that comes down?

Well Iconoclast I had hoped for better than these poor efforts from you. If this is the best you got let me welcome you over to preterism cause you seriously ought to be considering it.

Job 19:25—are you kidding me, I mean seriously are you serious—of all the desperate graps at scripture this is beneath you.

Look at that verse—there is not any reference whatsoever to Christ or anybody’s return not physical, not spiritual, not in between, not nothing—it just doesn’t use the word return or any similar word in that verse. It says stand in the latter day upon the earth. It doesn’t say return to anything. If you look at the verses around it for reference it they are not talking about Christ’s return. It is not anchored to that subject in any way whatsoever. This verse is just floating and you are twisting it to suit your view. That is an example of the worst sort of bible interpretation. Desperate, desperate, desperate to find a verse to twist to suit your view point.

Since later days is a reference to Acts 2 regarding Peter’s definition of last days as spoken of by Joel which informs us the bible defines last days as the end of the old covenant not the end of time.

As for Acts 1:11 you failed to include the entire passage beginning at verse 9 which says a cloud received Him out of their sight—did you really think you could pull that old trick over on me. So if this passage refers to his coming back it means he will come back in the same way—out of their sight—hmmm, sounds like not a case for a physical return, but instead a preterist view. No where in there are the words that he will return in bodily form. No where. Thanks for making my point.

Actually the part about his coming in refers to his coming into heaven not back to the earth. Since he disappeared out of their sight and they couldn’t see him the two angels were verifying he went into heaven. This is called an ellipsis—a way to shorten a passage. Repeat the term “into heaven” after come in and you see how natural it fits the sentence.

Not hovering—indwelling is the word you are looking for. The New Jerusalem is the New Covenant and we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Iconoclast I’ll say it again you may be the best the futurists have and if this is your best effort—finding any verses that say bodily return you have certainly been helpful in making my point that they just don’t exist. If Christ was going to return a long time in the future he would have said so. If he was going to come back in bodily form he would have said so.

Are you sure you aren’t ready to become a full preterist and admit Christ’s return was in 70 AD?

 

[revmwc]

Hello guys,

Have had to be away for a while with too much going on between work, vacation, hurricane clean up, etc, etc. Forum posting is one thing you don’t have to do and can give up. I will try to sneak in a few posts this week, then probably have to give it up for a while again. This was written in a hurry, but I think it will suffice to make the point beyond contention.

This post focuses on some of the various time statements indicating Christ would return in a short period of time.

Jesus says at various time and places in various ways he is coming soon—he leaves no doubt about it—in the life time of those living at that time.

Matthew 24:33-34

So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Matthew 10:23

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Seven times in the book of Revelation Jesus said he was coming soon as in

Revelation 22:20

…Surely I am coming soon." Amen.

The Apostles confirm this as in

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord….

And 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet…

Further in Daniel we are told to close the book because its time is not near then about 500 years later When Revelation is written we are told not to close the book because the time is near. Obviously God relates to us on a time scale we can relate to since 2,000 years have gone by which verifies we can’t be waiting on a future return of Christ and be consistent with these statements.

In summary, there is no honest way to read these statements and not realize that we have already had the return of Christ (at 70 AD) and it just came in a different way than we were expecting. Our choice is simple, align our thinking to the bible and realize the Second coming was different than what we have been taught or live in denial about his second coming and twist, distort, and live in denial and put his second coming sometime in the future. Myself I want to read the bible straight up and let the prophecy chips fall where they may. I'll accept the plan that God decided to work by and not twist it to suit my view.

When I look at the bible and just search for truth and not look at it with an agenda I have to realize the full Preterist view is the only way to understand bible prophecy and Christ’s Second Coming.

So where is the proof that Christ returned in 70 A.D.? Every scripture which speaks of His return in judgements ends with every knee bowing to Him, that would be all mankind. With the unbelievers being judged again which hasn't happened. Every scripture says all nations including Israel will call Him Lord last time I checked that hasn't happened. So I'd say scripturally based He didn't return in 70 A.D. because the proof of scripture is not there. In fact the world is getting progressively worse and we have yet to see Him have the Government of Israel upon His shoulders in a physical Messianic Kingdom.

 

[Logos1]

Concerning the Coming of Christ:

The SDA's made the same kind of statement.
The J.W.'s made the same kind of statement.
A sect based out of London said that Christ would return in 1987 to a hill top in Kenya.
Harold Camping has made the same kind of statements.

The Preterists are no different than all of the above and many more date-setters. In light of Jesus strict command not to set a date for his coming we know that you are in error. It is false teaching according to the very words of Jesus.

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Matthew 24:36)

One chapter later he repeated himself:
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Matthew 25:13)

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Mark 13:32)

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6-7)

There is no evidence that Christ came in 70 A.D. That is one of the major downfalls of Preterism. To state a fact that they cannot prove is actually quite absurd. It makes no logical sense. It is as if one declares that the planet Pluto is made of diamond. I can state it, and you can't disprove me. Why? You can't see Pluto. Therefore I am right by default, and you are wrong. This is the logic that you are using.

LOL, DHK I expected these efforts from you.

At least you have as much admitted by their absence that Christ didn't claim he would return in bodily form and he didn't say he would come back a long time in the future.

Again you are twisting words to suit your purposes and comparing preterists to irrelevant comparisons. Your usual method of operation.

Christ warned about setting dates, but he tells us it will be soon and that's a fact jack. Revelation also describes the destruction of Jerusalem and it was destroyed just as predicted. Therefore preterists can actually claim he did come back in 70 AD and set the date after the fact. And, we can also point to that fulfillment of prophecy as hard, physical, proof of His return. Simple, straight forward, and indisputable. Let me offer to bury the hatchet and in a spirit of brotherly love welcome you over to the preterist camp too DHK.

 

[Logos1]

So where is the proof that Christ returned in 70 A.D.? Every scripture which speaks of His return in judgements ends with every knee bowing to Him, that would be all mankind. With the unbelievers being judged again which hasn't happened. Every scripture says all nations including Israel will call Him Lord last time I checked that hasn't happened. So I'd say scripturally based He didn't return in 70 A.D. because the proof of scripture is not there. In fact the world is getting progressively worse and we have yet to see Him have the Government of Israel upon His shoulders in a physical Messianic Kingdom.

Greetings reverend. Good to hear from you again. Read my reply above to DHK and I think we would have to agree there is hard, physical evidence of his return in 70 AD. Your welcome.

I'll even bury the hatchet with you and welcome you over to full preterism. I guess now that you have your proof you want to rush on over and join up soon as possible.

 

[Logos1]

So three more replies and not one verse yet that says that Christ will return a long time in the future or that he will return in a bodily form.

Preterits still have the bible on their side that Christ returned soon as he said he would and the Apostles affirmed his soon return all through the New Testament.

 

[DHK]

LOL, DHK I expected these efforts from you.

At least you have as much admitted by their absence that Christ didn't claim he would return in bodily form and he didn't say he would come back a long time in the future.

Again you are twisting words to suit your purposes and comparing preterists to irrelevant comparisons. Your usual method of operation.

Christ warned about setting dates, but he tells us it will be soon and that's a fact jack. Revelation also describes the destruction of Jerusalem and it was destroyed just as predicted. Therefore preterists can actually claim he did come back in 70 AD and set the date after the fact. And, we can also point to that fulfillment of prophecy as hard, physical, proof of His return. Simple, straight forward, and indisputable. Let me offer to bury the hatchet and in a spirit of brotherly love welcome you over to the preterist camp too DHK.

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 1:9)

John was banished to the Isle of Patmos by Domitian in the 90's when Domitian reigned. This fact alone discredits your position. All conservative Bible dictionaries, encyclopedias, commentaries, etc. that I have ever read have attested to this fact. He was there and wrote the book 96-98 A.D. well after the destruction of Jerusalem.