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Preterism v. God's Plan for our future
- Thread starter Ed Edwards
- Start date
eschatologist
New Member
Eusebius was quoting Irenaeus, who, although quoted many reliable things, made many unreliable comments as well. For instance, Irenaeus believe Jesus to be over 50 years of age when He died on the cross! You have to remember that these people are mere men, not the Word of God!
prophecynut
New Member
Greetings in the name of the Lord.
eschatologist + prophecynut = two peas in a pod?
For many years I accepted age 33 for when he died.
After research I believe he was close to 40.
Forty in God's Word is a time of testing.
eschatologist + prophecynut = two peas in a pod?
For many years I accepted age 33 for when he died.
After research I believe he was close to 40.
Forty in God's Word is a time of testing.
What? Are you saying the Jews used the term "heaven and earth" as a idiom for the heavans and earth?
Is. 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
The phrase "heaven and earth" was used metaphorically for the Old Covenant, her people and her rituals. Clearly in Is. 51 He is not speaking of the physical creation but of His creation of His Old Covenant people and system.
So tell me how do those who are alive at the end of the Millinnium make it to this new heaven and earth? Where do they go if they are living on the old earth which God destroys?
Really? So if those heavens and earth in Is 65 and 66 don't refer to the same ones in II Peter and Rev 21, then you have God destroying His New Heaven and Earth and replacing it with another New Heaven and Earth. Perhaps you need a chart showing us how this is done.
Daniel David
New Member
Iraneous was a disciple of John people. I will take Eusebious' quote of Iraneous, the disciple of John, as to when John was on Patmos.
What is so interesting is that the futurist view does not depend on the date of Revelation, however, preterism falls apart on this one fact.
What is so interesting is that the futurist view does not depend on the date of Revelation, however, preterism falls apart on this one fact.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Nero certainly did persecute Christians, but not to the degree that Domitian did. I don't think we have evidence that there was empire-wide Christian persecution before 70 AD - in Rome yes but in Asia minor?
G K Beale (NIGTC) gives a very nice lengthy discussion on the date of Revelation, fair and even-handed.
G K Beale (NIGTC) gives a very nice lengthy discussion on the date of Revelation, fair and even-handed.
Irenaeus never met John.
So do you take Irenaeus' word on this as well:
For how had He disciples, if He did not teach? And how did He teach, if He had not a Master’s age? For He came to Baptism as one Who had not yet fulfilled thirty years, but was beginning to be about thirty years old; (for so Luke, who hath signified His years, bath set it down; Now Jesus, when He came to Baptism, began to be about thirty years old
and He preached for one year only after His Baptism: completing His thirtieth year He suffered, while He was still young, and not yet come to riper age. But the age of 30 years is the first of a young man’s mind, and that it reaches even to the fortieth year, everyone will allow: but after the fortieth and fiftieth year, it begins to verge towards elder age: which our Lord was of when He taught, as the Gospel and all the Elders witness, who in Asia conferred with John the Lord’s disciple, to the effect that John had delivered these things unto them: for he abode with them until the times of Trajan. And some of them saw not only John, but others also of the Apostles, and had this same account from them, and witness to the aforesaid relation. Whom ought we rather to believe? These, being such as they are, or Ptolemy, who never beheld the Apostles, nor ever in his dreams attained to any vestige of an Apostle? (Against Heresies, 2:22:5)Here is what the late-date evidence boiles down to:
:"We, therefore, do not venture to affirm anything with certainty respecting the name of antichrist. For were it necessary that his name should be clearly announced to the present age, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it has not been long since it was seen, but almost in our own generation, about the end of Domitian's reign."
The context of this is not even about when Revelation was written. It is in reference to who the antichrist was. This statement seems to indicate that the antichrist was a past figure and his name was not important or John would have told them.
Revelation is in the very same book by Irenaeus, Against Heresies, two paragraphs earlier. In 5:30:1, Irenaeus makes reference to "all the most approved and ancient copies" of the book of Revelation:
Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number [of the Beast] being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the book of Revelation], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony to it....
Does it make sense that Irenaeus would refer to "all the most approved and ancient copies" of the book of Revelation, and then state that John saw the Revelation "no very long time since, but almost in our day?"
Clement of Alexandria (head teacher at the Catechetical School at Alexandria) was a contemporary of Irenaeus. He wrote his Miscellanies (or Stromata) in c. A.D. 190-195. In 7:17 he condemns certain teachers who were writing counterfeit scriptures. Clement explained that those teachers and their scriptures were counterfeit because they had appeared after the close of the teaching of the Apostles. According to Clement, the close of the teaching of the Apostles (which includes the writing of the Scriptures) "ends with Nero." Nero died in A.D. 68. Clement of Alexandria thus implied that the "New Testament," including the book of Revelation, was written before A.D. 68.
Charles,
There would have been many more than seven churches in Asia Minor by 96 A.D. The fact that there were only seven smacks of a much early dating, probably around 65 A.D. or earlier.
Read the seven letters to those churches. The Christians at that time Revelation was written were being greatly persecuted by THE JEWS, and that is reflected in the seven letters. This Jewish persecution of the saints is the same problem that the Apostles write about throughout the New Testament period - read especially I Thes.2:14-16. There doesn't seem to be this same kind of persecution at the time of Domition - a persecution, yes, but not from the Jews like the New Testament period incurred.
Chapters 17-18 of Revelation describe the destruction of the great city", wherein is "the blood of prophets" (18:24). This could only refer to the destruction of first century JERUSALEM, as no other city was guilty of the blood of the prophets. Jesus said the same thing of Jerusalem in Matt.23 and Lk.13:33, and in the vineyard and marriage parables. A pre-70 dating makes the imminency statements come alive, since Jerusalem would have been destroyed "shortly" (1:1; 22:6) thereafter. On the other hand, a 96 A.D. date makes the imminency statements lose their meaning. Yes, Jerusalem was destroyed again in 136 A.D., but 70 A.D. was the biggie...the intended time for sure, since that is when the Temple was destroyed. Allusions to the TEmple abound in Chapters 17-18, meaning that it was STILL STANDING at the time Revelation was written. Revelation points AHEAD to the destruction of the Temple, as seen in chapters 17-18. Jesus, again, paralleled Revelation 17-18 with his declaration about the Temple's destruction. And he never taught a "rebuilt temple"! A pre-70 dating makes great sense of the whole book of Revelation.
Warren
There would have been many more than seven churches in Asia Minor by 96 A.D. The fact that there were only seven smacks of a much early dating, probably around 65 A.D. or earlier.
Read the seven letters to those churches. The Christians at that time Revelation was written were being greatly persecuted by THE JEWS, and that is reflected in the seven letters. This Jewish persecution of the saints is the same problem that the Apostles write about throughout the New Testament period - read especially I Thes.2:14-16. There doesn't seem to be this same kind of persecution at the time of Domition - a persecution, yes, but not from the Jews like the New Testament period incurred.
Chapters 17-18 of Revelation describe the destruction of the great city", wherein is "the blood of prophets" (18:24). This could only refer to the destruction of first century JERUSALEM, as no other city was guilty of the blood of the prophets. Jesus said the same thing of Jerusalem in Matt.23 and Lk.13:33, and in the vineyard and marriage parables. A pre-70 dating makes the imminency statements come alive, since Jerusalem would have been destroyed "shortly" (1:1; 22:6) thereafter. On the other hand, a 96 A.D. date makes the imminency statements lose their meaning. Yes, Jerusalem was destroyed again in 136 A.D., but 70 A.D. was the biggie...the intended time for sure, since that is when the Temple was destroyed. Allusions to the TEmple abound in Chapters 17-18, meaning that it was STILL STANDING at the time Revelation was written. Revelation points AHEAD to the destruction of the Temple, as seen in chapters 17-18. Jesus, again, paralleled Revelation 17-18 with his declaration about the Temple's destruction. And he never taught a "rebuilt temple"! A pre-70 dating makes great sense of the whole book of Revelation.
Warren
All I have read says there was no wide spread persecution under Domitian.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Grasshopper: "So tell me how do those who are alive at
the end of the Millinnium make it to this new heaven
and earth? Where do they go if they are living on the
old earth which God destroys?"
The Bible does not have the answer to your question.
God gave us an imigination. Try using yours.
My imigination says another Rapture/resurrection.
But some say there is one and only one
rapture/resurrection of the dead. But my God is
BY NATURE one resurrectin' God!
the end of the Millinnium make it to this new heaven
and earth? Where do they go if they are living on the
old earth which God destroys?"
The Bible does not have the answer to your question.
God gave us an imigination. Try using yours.
My imigination says another Rapture/resurrection.
But some say there is one and only one
rapture/resurrection of the dead. But my God is
BY NATURE one resurrectin' God!
No thanks, I'll stick with scripture. However you and LaHaye continue on in selling your imaginations to the Church. Although I'm sure LaHaye has profited more from his than you have.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Ed: ---------------------------------------
The Bible does not have the answer to your question.
God gave us an imigination. Try using yours.
--------------------------------------------
Grasshopper: "No thanks, I'll stick with scripture."
Interesting postion.
If you take no stand on anything you can
defeat all stands on all things. Unfortunately one
can never come to any truth that way (nor
for that matter figure out what you believe).
BTW, if you only speak when the scripture speaks
and are silent when the scripture is silent, then
Preterism is false. The Bible does NOT teach Preterism.
The whole issue of Idealism/Preterism/Historicism/Futurism
is a comparison of the Holy Bible and World events.
So if you don't compare the Bible to History then
you cannot have a Idealism/Preterism/Historicism/Futurism viewpoint.
Grasshopper: //What? Are you saying the Jews used the term
"heaven and earth" as a idiom for the heavans and earth?//
Wow! what a concept - words meaning thier meaning.
Yes, "heaven and earth" = "heavens and earth" = the physcial realm.
Grasshopper: //The phrase "heaven and earth" was used metaphorically
for the Old Covenant, ... //
What was the old covenant? That with Noah? Abraham?
Israel? Moses? David? And i politely disagree,
"heaven and earth" = physical heaven where water clouds are
and physical earth we sit on and type words in.
GRasshopper: "So if those heavens and earth in
Is 65 and 66 don't refer to the same ones in II Peter
and Rev 21, then you have God destroying His New
Heaven and Earth and replacing it with another New Heaven and Earth "
No, I don't. Maybe you do. Maybe you should try the
substitution: new heavens and a new earth = a covenent fulfilled
What ever happened to your argument that i believe in the
Millinnial Kingdom of Jesus Christ followed by a new heavens and
a new earth MEANS that Jesus restores the earth and then
destroyes it to make room for a new heaven and a new earth?
BTW, i also argue with a person, when i explain what i think scripture
might mean, i'm being complex and
confusing; when he explains what he thinks
scripture means, it is simplification.
The Bible does not have the answer to your question.
God gave us an imigination. Try using yours.
--------------------------------------------
Grasshopper: "No thanks, I'll stick with scripture."
Interesting postion.
If you take no stand on anything you can
defeat all stands on all things. Unfortunately one
can never come to any truth that way (nor
for that matter figure out what you believe).
BTW, if you only speak when the scripture speaks
and are silent when the scripture is silent, then
Preterism is false. The Bible does NOT teach Preterism.
The whole issue of Idealism/Preterism/Historicism/Futurism
is a comparison of the Holy Bible and World events.
So if you don't compare the Bible to History then
you cannot have a Idealism/Preterism/Historicism/Futurism viewpoint.
Grasshopper: //What? Are you saying the Jews used the term
"heaven and earth" as a idiom for the heavans and earth?//
Wow! what a concept - words meaning thier meaning.
Yes, "heaven and earth" = "heavens and earth" = the physcial realm.
Grasshopper: //The phrase "heaven and earth" was used metaphorically
for the Old Covenant, ... //
What was the old covenant? That with Noah? Abraham?
Israel? Moses? David? And i politely disagree,
"heaven and earth" = physical heaven where water clouds are
and physical earth we sit on and type words in.
GRasshopper: "So if those heavens and earth in
Is 65 and 66 don't refer to the same ones in II Peter
and Rev 21, then you have God destroying His New
Heaven and Earth and replacing it with another New Heaven and Earth "
No, I don't. Maybe you do. Maybe you should try the
substitution: new heavens and a new earth = a covenent fulfilled
What ever happened to your argument that i believe in the
Millinnial Kingdom of Jesus Christ followed by a new heavens and
a new earth MEANS that Jesus restores the earth and then
destroyes it to make room for a new heaven and a new earth?
BTW, i also argue with a person, when i explain what i think scripture
might mean, i'm being complex and
confusing; when he explains what he thinks
scripture means, it is simplification.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
church mouse guy in another topic:
"I think that there are only 2 resurrections:
the 1st at the Second Coming or return of Jesus and that
is the resurrection of the good;
the 2nd is the resurrection of the damned
at the end of the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth.
I think that St. John says that the 1st resurrection
takes place when Satan is locked up for 1000 years
while Jesus reigns on earth.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived
not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection."
There is nothing in this verse that says there is "one and
only one" resurrection. The word "first" does not have to
be exclusive.
If i say, "I went to college, but first i went to
common schools" you would have be gone to one and only
one grade in one and only one school. As a matter of
a fact, i went to 12 grades (back before kindergarden)
in 5 different schools.
(Note that this is argument #4
listed on the 3ed post on page 1)
Nothing new under the sun, eh?
"I think that there are only 2 resurrections:
the 1st at the Second Coming or return of Jesus and that
is the resurrection of the good;
the 2nd is the resurrection of the damned
at the end of the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth.
I think that St. John says that the 1st resurrection
takes place when Satan is locked up for 1000 years
while Jesus reigns on earth.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived
not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection."
There is nothing in this verse that says there is "one and
only one" resurrection. The word "first" does not have to
be exclusive.
If i say, "I went to college, but first i went to
common schools" you would have be gone to one and only
one grade in one and only one school. As a matter of
a fact, i went to 12 grades (back before kindergarden)
in 5 different schools.
(Note that this is argument #4
listed on the 3ed post on page 1)
Nothing new under the sun, eh?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
2 Peter 3:3-9 (HCSB):
First, be aware of this:
scoffers will come in the last days to scoff,
following their own lusts,
4 saying, "Where is the promise of His coming?
For ever since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation."
5 They willfully ignore this:
long ago the heavens and the earth existed out
of water and through water by the word of God.
6 Through these the world of that time perished
when it was flooded by water.
7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth
are held in store for fire, being kept until
the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 Dear friends, don't let this one thing escape you:
with the Lord one day is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years
like one day.
9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand
delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to
perish, but all to come to repentance.
When from 33AD until 2004AD have ALL ungodly men been destroyed at the
same time? This prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.
BTW, appartenly there are 100s of Millions of Evil men now.
When the Lord walked on Earth there were under 200 million persons
total.
So, as long as salvation is found among the gentiles, i will
be a futurist. The Master delays his coming that more might
be saved, so then i must work the Master's fields.
BTW, isn't this part of 2 Peter 3:4 a very apt description of
preterism?
"Where is the promise of His coming?
For ever since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they have been
since the beginning of creation."
Preterism says: The prophecies of the Bible were all fulfilled before the
fathers fell asleep. Since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they have been
since the beginning of creation.
Sorry, our Future is when most of the prophecies of the New
Testment will be fulfilled, many of them literally and physcially.
There is coming a day when all evil men shall be
destroyed, not just a few.
First, be aware of this:
scoffers will come in the last days to scoff,
following their own lusts,
4 saying, "Where is the promise of His coming?
For ever since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation."
5 They willfully ignore this:
long ago the heavens and the earth existed out
of water and through water by the word of God.
6 Through these the world of that time perished
when it was flooded by water.
7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth
are held in store for fire, being kept until
the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 Dear friends, don't let this one thing escape you:
with the Lord one day is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years
like one day.
9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand
delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to
perish, but all to come to repentance.
When from 33AD until 2004AD have ALL ungodly men been destroyed at the
same time? This prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.
BTW, appartenly there are 100s of Millions of Evil men now.
When the Lord walked on Earth there were under 200 million persons
total.
So, as long as salvation is found among the gentiles, i will
be a futurist. The Master delays his coming that more might
be saved, so then i must work the Master's fields.
BTW, isn't this part of 2 Peter 3:4 a very apt description of
preterism?
"Where is the promise of His coming?
For ever since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they have been
since the beginning of creation."
Preterism says: The prophecies of the Bible were all fulfilled before the
fathers fell asleep. Since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they have been
since the beginning of creation.
Sorry, our Future is when most of the prophecies of the New
Testment will be fulfilled, many of them literally and physcially.
There is coming a day when all evil men shall be
destroyed, not just a few.
Daniel David
New Member
I ment Ignatious. Ireneous did have access to the historical record.
Preterism is just so comical.
Jesus said that this time period (the Olivet Discourse with the parallel in Revelation) would be the worst the world has ever known or will ever know.
So, the destruction of buildings in Jerusalem and 1,000,000 deaths somehow in the mind of preterists is even worse than the flood, which destroyed the entire world and all but 8 people.
How utterly pathetic. Jesus even mentioned Noah in the O.D. Sorry, this thread is not for students of Scripture. Preterists are their own little cult and happy to be part of it.
Preterism is just so comical.
Jesus said that this time period (the Olivet Discourse with the parallel in Revelation) would be the worst the world has ever known or will ever know.
So, the destruction of buildings in Jerusalem and 1,000,000 deaths somehow in the mind of preterists is even worse than the flood, which destroyed the entire world and all but 8 people.
How utterly pathetic. Jesus even mentioned Noah in the O.D. Sorry, this thread is not for students of Scripture. Preterists are their own little cult and happy to be part of it.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
This writing is the property of Edwards,
it was typed before today.
----------------------------
Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted
The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
Definitions:
New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.
How to get on God's list:
Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8
2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 26 May 2004;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,
5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15
NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.
There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):
2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)
3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)
5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)
Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).
The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.
CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.
May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!
Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.
--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother David Daniel -- Preach it!
Back on the subject:
What is the Peterist belief concerning
our future on earth (i.e. God's plan
for us living now).
BTW, i challenge any of you to give
an evangelistic message featuring your
eschatological belief as i did above
for my pretribulation rapture,
premillinnial Second Advent of Jesus,
Futurist eschatology.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Data needed for a discussion elsewhere:
2003 data
World Jews: 13,296,100
USA Jews: 5,836,000
Israel Jews: 5,143,000
2003 data
World Jews: 13,296,100
USA Jews: 5,836,000
Israel Jews: 5,143,000
Daniel David,
"Since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be" (Matt.24:21) - Jesus is quoting Daniel 12:1. Yet, he states it a little bit differently. This is not uncommon. I believe we need to reference the way Daniel stated it and consider that the "nation" he was alluding to was the nation of Israel, since his prophecies concern his people, the Jews (Dan.9:24). Daniel says, "..since there was a nation (OF ISRAEL) even to that same time". Now consider that Jesus himself was speaking of events that would transpire in "Judaea" and we solve the problem. What happened to the Jews and Judaea in 70 A.D. was the worst tribulation in THAT NATION'S history.
Now, go back to page 2 of this thread and read my case for a pre-70 dating of Revelation. The Olivet Discourse was a parallel to Revelation, meaning they both pointed to the same events and timeframe. What did the Olivet Discourse point to? A no brainer indeed - Jerusalem's first century desolation, when the Temple was destroyed, bring to an "end" the Old Covenant age or ministration of death. It fits so well. My, my, my!
Warren
"Since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be" (Matt.24:21) - Jesus is quoting Daniel 12:1. Yet, he states it a little bit differently. This is not uncommon. I believe we need to reference the way Daniel stated it and consider that the "nation" he was alluding to was the nation of Israel, since his prophecies concern his people, the Jews (Dan.9:24). Daniel says, "..since there was a nation (OF ISRAEL) even to that same time". Now consider that Jesus himself was speaking of events that would transpire in "Judaea" and we solve the problem. What happened to the Jews and Judaea in 70 A.D. was the worst tribulation in THAT NATION'S history.
Now, go back to page 2 of this thread and read my case for a pre-70 dating of Revelation. The Olivet Discourse was a parallel to Revelation, meaning they both pointed to the same events and timeframe. What did the Olivet Discourse point to? A no brainer indeed - Jerusalem's first century desolation, when the Temple was destroyed, bring to an "end" the Old Covenant age or ministration of death. It fits so well. My, my, my!
Warren
Is this where we let our imagination run wild?
So why call " heaven and earth" an idiom if it means heaven and earth. That is like saying the Jews referred to Jerusalem with the idiom "Jerusalem".
Yes you do. You said this:
"Each place that "new Heavens and new Earth" appearsit referes to a physical reality, not a spiritualreality."
You also said you didn't know if the New H and E in Is 65 and 66 refer to the same one in Rev 21. If they do not then how do you get a new heaven and earth without destroying another new heaven and earth? Imagination?
You say it must be physical. Which is it Ed? Are you attempting humor again?
What ever happened to your study of Is 65 and 66? Are those the same New Heavens and Earth as Rev 21? DD refused to answer this question a few months ago as well. Perhaps he has an answer now.
And when are the last days? According to Ed AD33 through 2004 and counting. Therefore there have always been these scoffers.
So the 1000 year Kingdom age might just be 1 day. And Genesis might be speaking of a 7000 year creation. etc....
Heb 10:37 says For yet a little while and He who is coming will come and will not tarry .
Again you show your ignorance of preterism. The fathers are speaking of OT saints.
I have done this using scripture. Either your memory is failing or you just choose to ignore it.
What is a Jew Ed? Race or religion? What kind of Jew will fulfill your eschatological view? Tom Arnold is a Jewish convert, does he? How about all those living in Israel who are the descendants of Jewish converts from the 900sAD?