Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
The earth has already been destroyed by the
people living on it. The sky is polluted.
Jesus does not have to destory it.
Jesus will create a new heaven (sky)
and a new earth at the beginning of the
Millinnial Kingdom.
-
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Preterism v. God's Plan for our future
- Thread starter Ed Edwards
- Start date
people living on it. The sky is polluted.
Jesus does not have to destory it.
Jesus will create a new heaven (sky)
and a new earth at the beginning of the
Millinnial Kingdom.
Your graph should actually read:
0. church age continues
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. New Heaven and New Earth
5. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom
6. new heavens & new earth
0. church age continues
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. New Heaven and New Earth
5. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom
6. new heavens & new earth
How about all the scriptures in both Daniel and Revelation where we see the Gentile kings/powers (the beast, etc) fighting against Christ and being destroyed; and not just Israel. It is so obvious that that has not been completely fulfilled. The ridiculous "spiritual" interpretations of this fulfillment ("Christ crushes the nations in that they all pass away after a time"; "We reign over them in that they are 'needy subjects' being lost without Christ"--as if these things weren't true before this "parousia") completely does away with the meaning of words, does away with our hope (there is nothing left to look forward to in our lifetimes, and we don't even now what is after we die) and are manifest through the need to reconcile scripture with a previously held preterist bias.
Obviously; something that is completely fulfilled does not need any "greater" fulfillment. Christ's work was said to be complete, and when He returns, it will be "without sin unto salvation" --(i.e the third aspect of salvation--deliverance from this world of suffering and death). And there is some multiple fulfillment (beyond double) in there too. Christ was the antitypical Passover lamb. But the Passover ritual itself had as its prototype the actual passing over of the Israelites by the angel of death in Egypt.
So no, your logic does not prove your point. Clearly there are things that are not fulfilled, and can only be forced into fulfillment by stretching the meanings of things to limit them to the past only. If it's true that the Church does eventually conquer the earth, then right there, that would be some future fulfillment. In fact, God would be doing some work that He was not doing during all those centuries when the true Church was small.
Still, it was not the world-conquering body prophesied; or at least not yet. Once again proving future fulfillment.
But still, even the church "spreading" does not mean divine "dominion". That's the mistake people make. They see the organization spreading, and Christian language and concepts spreading, and assume that they are actually spreading God's dominion. Many Christians profess the faith but are not really saved. Many groups apostasize.
So we are not subduing kingdoms. Oftee, we are giving them a veneer of religion. Yes, individuals are getting saved around the world, but still, even from right under our nose, the "kingdoms" we once ruled have turned against the faith, and are quickly plunging intot total hedonism. That's what happens. The church spreads, there is some amount of conversion and revival for awhile, and then it wears off, and people just slide into nominalism, and then rebellion. We have not learned the lesson God taught through the physical nation that He did establish--Israel. It is man's nature that needs to be changed to establish righteousness in the earth. Ironically, as much as preterists criticize people for wanting a physical kingdom "of this world", it is they who are claiming some sort of physical kingdom on the earth, only pasting the label "spiritual" on it by saying that one is spiritually born into it. Bt while God started it throuhg us, He will return to finish it. Remember, the Kingdom was prophesied by Jesus as like a mustard seed. It starts small, and then grows. And it is God who does the work; not us. Once again, if He brings about some greater fulfillment in the future, then all the propecies are not yet fulfilled.
Well, what do you judge "better off" by? Because of the numbers of professing Christians in the world? Because of all the organizations we have (and make money and gain some power through)? Because of our relative peace and prosperity in the West? Once again, you make the same mistake of the Church of the past, and of all others who look to establish a physical kingdom. It can be argued that it was best off in the first 3 centuries, when persecution drove them together as a body, and then they really grew. It seems Satan (who's obviously still around) got wise and changed his tactic. Instead of persecution; give the church power and prestige. Now she becomes corrupt, and increasingly fragmented; yet still rationalizing it all by saying she is the final "kingdom".
All of this is what Preterism has overlooked, and why there is yet future fulfillment.
Yes, He was the first resurretion, but He was also the firstFRUITS; meaning the first of the crop; the first one in a series of similar resurrections. You seem to be trying to make this mean "HE is the only one resurrectioed in the first resurrection, and by being born again, we are spiritually 'joined' to that resurrection without ever being resurrected ourselves. "; But one thing preterists have never answered is what is this second resurrection, then? If this first resurrection is only a symbol of "spiritual life"; then are the wicked dead given spiritual life at the judgment, then? What individual is the "literal" second resurrection, then? Preterism obviously has not thought these methods of interpretation through.
How does the above prove "dual fulfillment"?
You're only suggesting "unfulfillment" here.
Perhaps you could share your definition of "dual fulfilment".
First of all, define "completely" Tell me how they were already "Partially fulfilled".
What historic events brought "partial fulfillment", how was it accomplished, and how is it to be applied?
Secondly, and oddly enough more importantly, the assertion that "it's obvious" shows the futurist bias you are obviously approaching the text with.
Paul told the 1st century Thessalonians that their present persecution would come to an end via the parousia of Christ in which they're 1st century persecuters would receive judgement:
2 Thess. 1:5-10 NKJ
5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to [/b]give you who are troubled rest[/b] with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, F1 because our testimony among you was believed.
Care to explain to me the "partial fulfillment" of this?
Has the 1st century Thessalonian congragation received "rest form their persecution" yet?
remember, Paul said their rest would come via the parousia of Christ
Have their 1st century persecutors been repayed with tribulation [via the parousia] yet?
If not, please describe this current "future to them tribulation" they will one day experience that Paul was referring to here.
No such conclusion can be forced upon the preterist view.
The preterist view testifies the opposite.
Our Hope is not "done away with" rather it is fulfilled. You don't hope for what you already have. My Hope lies in Jesus Christ an in my absolute assurance that when I shed this earthly tent [my mortal body], I have a house in heaven made without hands [the Body that God Gives me] in which and WHERE whcih I will reside for eternity. Demonstrating tthat Preterists know exactly what is after we die. Humans are either immediatly clothed in our resurrection bodies that God gives us [1Corr 15:38] and ushered into the presence of God where we shall forever dwell, or they are immediately cast into the lake of fire, suffering in their sin, forever.
again with the preconceptive "Obviously"......
Who gets to say what's been completely fulfilled and what hasn't?
Majority Rule?
(Here's a hint... search scripture to see who was given the authority to proclaim prophetic fulfillment)
Please show this "third aspect of salvation" concept from scripture, with a timeline if you could.
I believe your ideas of “multiple fulfillments are rooted in O.T. TYPES (i.e. foreshadowings of Messiah). The only problem is, the O.T. foreshadowing finds its final fulfillment in the Messianic generation and does not continue to repeat over and over and over again (for Jesus Christ is no "shadow," but is the OBJECT itself - Col 1:17).
The O.T. prophets did not believe the Messianic advent itself would serve as a TYPE for greater fulfillments beyond it. As I asked, Is calvary a mere TYPE for some greater redemption in our future from sin? Of course not. The O.T. things foreshadowed N.T. COMPLETIONS. The N.T. things do NOT in turn forshadow some future priesthood, sacrifice for sin, etc. The shadows provided by the O.T. religion and history point to the real object of Christ and the heavenly covenant (Col 1:17; Heb 8:1-5; Heb 9:23-24).
The "hermenutic" that the apostles had was a "typological" hermenutic. Those O.T. historical events acted as a background that set the Messianic themes (or "TYPES" that Israel would then look for in a coming Messiah. This is basic foreshadowing at work here. The jews saw their national history as FORESHADOWING the life and themes of their future Messiah -- but they could not piece it all together before he came. They had inklings and hunches and nailed down some of the pieces, but much of the details were not clear until it unfolded.
Jesus said to the rabbis, "you search the scriptures because in them you think you have life, yet the scriptures TESTIFY OF ME." This is Jesus pointing them to the TYPOLOGICAL "messianic hermeneutic." We should note, however, that the scriptures only testify of Christ if one reads them with the MESSIANIC or "CHRIST" HERMENUTIC (i.e., this way of reading the O.T. in order to find clues about Israel's Messiah). Furthermore, surely there were competing "messianic hermeneutics" at work in the 1st century. While the apostles recognized that the themes of Israel's history foreshadowed Jesus Christ and his life and death and resurrection, obviously not all jews agreed with the apostles' hermeneutic and many doubted it and openly disputed the apostles' reading of scripture.
So, concerning Israel's historic events and how the apostles interpreted them, Paul says to his endtime contemporaries: "these things happened to them FOR EXAMPLES, AND WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR INSTRUCTION UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME!" So here Paul believes the O.T. story he mentions in 1 Cor 10:1-10 was really written down as a foreshadowing of the Messianic generation. We see this exact hermenutical principle also mentioned in 1 Peter 1:10-12, which also applies the O.T. prophetic writings as finding their FULLEST completion in Christ's generation!
Finally, to prove that the O.T. things don't just repeat over and over and over again, Jesus said that "ALL THINGS WRITTEN WOULD BE FULFILLED" by the time of the Roman Jewish war (Luke 21:20-22). That statement is so absolute. And, if anyone should wonder what the "ALL THINGS WRITTEN" applies to, they only need look to Luke 24:44 to see that it means all the Law, Psalms, and Prophets -- The Old Testament canon! After Jesus is resurrected he tells his disciples that all things written about himself in the O.T. canon must be fulfilled! (Luke 24:44) -- and Luke 21:20-22 tells us WHEN the terminus arrived (Israel's Great Tribulation of 67-70AD).
So no, your logic does not prove your point. Clearly there are things that are not fulfilled, and can only be forced into fulfillment by stretching the meanings of things to limit them to the past only.[/quote]
You still need to show how you "include" the past, since right now it appears you are "excluding" them from any application.
No scripture may be interprated in such a way as to remove application to those who first received it.
To prove your argument about "partial, dual, multiple fulfillment", of any NT or OT eschatological passage, you must first demonstrate 1st century application.
You have yet to do so, but I'm all ears.
Rather, it will be future "application" of the fulfilled reality.
But still, even the church "spreading" does not mean divine "dominion". That's the mistake people make. They see the organization spreading, and Christian language and concepts spreading, and assume that they are actually spreading God's dominion. Many Christians profess the faith but are not really saved. Many groups apostasize.
So we are not subduing kingdoms.</font>[/QUOTE]Kingdoms rise and fall, the Church remains.
You don't believe you are born spiritually into the Kingdom of Christ on earth?
How does one enter into it then?
What does that mean?
I point you back to the Thessalonains who were awaiting rest from their persecution that would arrive via the parousia.
Did God proviode them the rest He promised or are they still being persecutied?
Rather, it is God who does the work "through us".
Well, what do you judge "better off" by? Because of the numbers of professing Christians in the world? Because of all the organizations we have (and make money and gain some power through)? Because of our relative peace and prosperity in the West? Once again, you make the same mistake of the Church of the past, and of all others who look to establish a physical kingdom. It can be argued that it was best off in the first 3 centuries, when persecution drove them together as a body, and then they really grew.[/quote]
You seem to be arguing that sanctification has no temporal effect on the Christian.
I would argue that temporal effects are an inescapable result of sanctification.
That is what the mustard seed is about.
And yet again you go with the presumptive "obviously".
How do you know satan is "still around"?
Are you asserting that Human beings are incapable of sinning without Satanic influence?
Where does the Bible teach that?
And so what if he is?
He is powerless to keep anyone from salvation.
Satan is a defeated foe, regardless of his geographic location.
It is our divine right as priests and kings of the Holy nation of God.
When Human beings fail to act upon, or live up to the obligation of that divine authority, it does not mean the authority does not exist.
As I said before, The tribulation saints of Revelation 6:9-11 were granted the realization of their co-inheritance with Christ--this realization of their hope is depicted in Revelation 20:4-6. St. John shows us the tribulation saints co-raised and co-enthroned with Jesus, realizing the full hope of St. Paul's teaching on the saints' reign and resurrection in the reign and resurrection of Jesus.
Revelation 20:4-6 is a narrative depiction of the saints' realization of the glorious promise Paul held out for them in his teachings--the saints are depicted as having attained the goal for which they all strove. As Paul taught, their resurrection and reign was "in Christ," and their sufferings and martyrdoms were honored by God with the reward of partaking in Christ's own resurrection, enthronement, and reign. They realized the promise of Paul's teaching that the saints were truly to take part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Truly, on these the second death has no power
Ya just had to get one last presumptuous "obviously" in there didn't you?
Show me this "2nd resurrection" from scripture and I'll respond to your querry.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I showed four "graphs" on page one.
Which of the four should read this way?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Last dazed: "Paul told the 1st century Thessalonians that their present persecution would come to an end via the parousia of Christ in which they're 1st century persecuters would receive judgement:"
2 Thess. 1:5-10 NKJ
5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to [/b]give you who are troubled rest[/b] with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, F1 because our testimony among you was believed.
Unfortunately what you say this means and what it means are
two totally different things.
Here is how i see it:
Paul told the 1st century Thessalonians that their present
persecution would end in justice via the parousia of Christ
in which their 1st century persecuters would receive judgement.
Paul told the 21st century Chrisitians that their present
persecution would end in justice via the parousia of Christ
in which their 21st century persecuters would receive judgement.
2 Thess. 1:5-10 NKJ
5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to [/b]give you who are troubled rest[/b] with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, F1 because our testimony among you was believed.
Unfortunately what you say this means and what it means are
two totally different things.
Here is how i see it:
Paul told the 1st century Thessalonians that their present
persecution would end in justice via the parousia of Christ
in which their 1st century persecuters would receive judgement.
Paul told the 21st century Chrisitians that their present
persecution would end in justice via the parousia of Christ
in which their 21st century persecuters would receive judgement.
ED, That is not what the text says.
Read it again. It supports my contention, not yours:
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
Paul said the parousia would "Repay with TRIBULATION" those who persecuted the Thessalonians, as well as give the Thessalonians REST FROM that persecution.
Please use the Bible to connect this "Tribulation" Pauls spoke of here to any Judgement passage. Show me where the Bible speaks of Tribulation for the dead at the parousia.
And please show how the Thessalonians are still waiting for "Rest" from their persecution.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Lastdazed: //And please show how the Thessalonians
are still waiting for "Rest" from their persecution.//
Revelation 6:9-11 (HCSB):
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar
the souls of those slaughtered because of God's word
and the testimony they had.
10 They cried out with a loud voice: "O Lord, holy and true,
how long until You judge and avenge our blood from
those who live on the earth?"
11 So a white robe was given to each of them,
and they were told to rest a little while longer
until the number of their fellow slaves and their
brothers, who were going to be killed just as
they had been, would be completed.
are still waiting for "Rest" from their persecution.//
Revelation 6:9-11 (HCSB):
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar
the souls of those slaughtered because of God's word
and the testimony they had.
10 They cried out with a loud voice: "O Lord, holy and true,
how long until You judge and avenge our blood from
those who live on the earth?"
11 So a white robe was given to each of them,
and they were told to rest a little while longer
until the number of their fellow slaves and their
brothers, who were going to be killed just as
they had been, would be completed.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Paul said in Romans 8 and in Phil 3 that we WAIT EAGERLY for Christ to return - groaning within ourselves.
Clearly the return of Christ had not happened in Paul's day - but he eagerly awaited it.
However in 2Thess 2 he combines the NT idea of Christ's soon return WITH the promise that at the return of Christ HE will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel
Notice that in chapter 2 of 2Thess Paul argues AGAINST claiming that that day has already come.
So here Paul shoots the preterist idea out of the water.
In Christ,
Bob
So far so good, no disagreement here
I still haven't seen evidence that the Thessalonians are still suffering from their persecution, which a futurist view of this passaage demands.
Because at that time, it hadn't.
Is your claim that Paul is arguing that it NEVER will be OK to claim "That day" has already come, even after it has?
If that isn't your point, what is?
Hardly.
No preterist claims the day of Christ had already come when Paul wrote. It is NOT a preterist belief.
The destruction of the temple was the validation and vindication of the Christians, who hoped in the dark after seeing their Lord crucified, then heard the apostles' reports of Him rising and ascending, but still suffered persecution from both Jews and pagans for His name. Also, I can add that to the Jewish Christians, this was a bit more significant, as as long as the Temple was standing, they probably still felt unsure as to whether they were yet bound by the Law. The religious establishment and their own families certainly were harassing them over it. Thus it's destruction would confirm forever that that was not the case. But still, this does not fulfill all the rest of the prophecies, once again, such as Gentile armies fighting against Christ and being destroyed.
No, not "obviously" what futurist bias or the majority says, but obviously, we do not see the Gentile nations destroyed or even subdued, and the preterist spin put on the meaning of this is from a preterist bias to try to tie up the loose ends. But it doesn't hold water.
Preterism assumes Paul was talking to THEM ONLY. If that's the case, then it is just a history book, and not a BIBLE for us. So "them" refers to Christians in general. This particular body of Christians had their particular set of circumstances and particular persecutors-- the jews and Romans. The Jews were crushed, and THIs was the "partial fulfillment", because the Romans (pagans) would continue to persecute them for centuries to come. And in various parts of the world, it STILL continues to this day (once again, we must not look at OUR relative peace and prosperity). So those Christians today can still read this letter and it applies equally to them. But they are promised to be repayed as well, and not in the ridiculous way you suggest (below). Once again, your position ignores the gentile world.
Even though it doesn't say "three aspects ofsalvation", still, you can see it the various usages of the term. We are "saved" from the penalty of sin, the power of sin, but not yet the presence of sin. Verses like "lift up your hands for your redemption draws nigh" (Luke 21:28) referred to salvation from a physical tribulation, not spiritual salvation from the pentlty and power of sin.
True, just like they understood only one coming of the MEssiah, but further revelation by the Messiah Himself showed there would be two comings (whatever ones understanding of what the second coming is). So likewise, the fulfillment of many of the propheces would also be in stages. The jugment of O.C Israel and exhoneration of the Christians THEN, the the scope extended to the rest of the world for us in the future.
It WAS the "fullest" for the particular scope being addressed then (Israel) but the rest of the world was not even touched.
Precisely. That war addressed ISrael only, but the rest of the world would be taken care of too, in its own time.
But that's not what the prophecies say. The prophecies make it instantaneous. Only by separating the stages of scope (The Jew first, then the Gentiles), can you spread it out like this. Not by ignoring scope, claiming "all" is fulfilled at that one time, but now spreading it out to thousands of years.
And this is what I meant by the ridiculous interpretation of the judgment of the gentiles. It just does not fit. Nations rose and fell before AD70. What changed, then? As systems godless kingdoms, they basically do continue on from back then. The names and government laws only change. I'm sorry, but you just cannot make this fit the promises of the prophecies without butchering their meanings beyond recognition.
It means that yes, we are to spread the Kingdom now through evangelism. But still, we are not to think we are creating a perfect Kingdom. That will only come when Christ returns and separates sin out by dominating over sinners for 1000 years, then finally separating for good all that reject Him for eternity. You have sinners and saints living together on earth forever, and only when we die is there any real separation. Even in that case, God has finished what He started through us.
Never said that. Just responding to your argument which seems to "prove" this is the final kingdom because things are supposedly getting "better" for us. The Kingdom is not about things getting "better" for us in a fallen material world. Ironic, that preterists are the ones always quoting "the Kingdom is not of this world".
Satan is the one who is pictured as deceiving man and leading him to fall in the first place. HE is the father of lies, not just Old Covenant darkness. In your view, Paul's statement becomes a backwards lie, and it IS flesh and blood we wrestle with, and not wicked spirits. The fact that such a scripture holds so true for us is proof that preterism is wrong.
And he was defeated at the Cross, not the destruction of the Temple. Yet they were still warned to resist him, and that he romas the earth as a lion seeking to devour. Once again, still true for today, and nothing changed in AD70. He cannot keep those who come to Christ from salvation, but those who reject Christ are still in his power, deceiced by him. The false religions, atheism and other philosophies were not all just made up purely by man. And he still attacks and accuses Christians, yet cannot take our souls, as the NT says. Still the same as then, but hardly the complete removal from his presence we are promised.
Sorry, the power of the dark ages church was not from God; was not our (their) right, but was Satan's scheme to destroy the truth and deceive the world into thinking Christ was false. The power the Church received came from the kingdom that was known as "the beast", and that power comes from Satan. The church clearly fornicated with the kings of the world; (a mockery of the dominion we were promised under Christ's reign), thus clearly indentifying it as the antitypical Babylon. Just look at the FRUITS of it!
If that was our right, then the leader who came out of this development claiming to be the vicar of Christ is true, and we are condemned heretics for not following him.
[ January 24, 2005, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
In the Corinthians passage, the inheritance is what is "reserved in Heaven", not our bodies or our existence. Notice the mention of "incorruptible and undefiled", in contrast to this current existence. Actually, you would think this would be applied to the Parousia in AD70, as most other such promises are. How do they know which to apply to AD70, and which are afterlife? It shows that the afterlife is left completely unmentioned in this theory, so then one has to go back and reserve some of the promise passages for Heaven, when a consistent application of them would also be for the AD70 Parousia. Paul's discussions of the resurrection to the Corinthians is a perfect illustration. The first part and very end of chapter 15 is applied to not only the resurrection of dead saints but also the spiritual "changing" of those alive at the same time in AD70, (which elsewhere, he applies to them becoming the new temple when the old one was destroyed, and thus "revealed as the sons of God"-- see application of these passages in #66 and #67, below, and 1 Jn. 3:1-5,16, 2 Cor. 3:18, Zech. 12:8 and Rom.8:19 in ans. #26), but v.35-49 right in the middle of all this, and the discussion in the second epistle are applied to our "new body in heaven". If the above interpretation of the "change" is true, then even "at home in the body and absent from the Lord" could be applied to their pre-Parousia state, before this "change", in which "our earthly house; this tabernacle [is dissolved]", and they get their "building of God, made not with hands, eternal in the heavens". This statement is elsewhere applied to the physical temple being replaced by the spiritual temple of the Church, only. How can you now say it is about our bodies? These passages also could not be discussing physical death if the only "mortality" ever "swallowed up" is spiritual death, as preterists have maintained! If you connect 2—5:10 to Heb.9:27, then yes, it would prove this is the afterlife; but it also proves physical death is what is swallowed up as well as spiritual. Else, you have to admit that "clothed with our house which is from Heaven" and "absent from the body and present with the Lord" would refer to the changed state, which "as the "New Jerusalem" does "come down" from Heaven! (Rev.21:2) After all, it is "by faith, not by sight" (v.7), and "without observation"(Luke 17:20), and "walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit" (Rom.8:4). So even "done in the body" could be understood symbolically in that light, and the "judgment" thus applied to AD70. When you start wild allegorization, it can always be taken beyond where you think it should go, and how really do you know where to stop, if one is consistent? The Thess. passage above quoted also refers to what "they alive" [in that generation] would experience at the Coming, and is thus one of the key "time statements" used to apply it to that time! Yet now, it is somehow extended to us who supposedly hold what they were hoping for, and our physical deaths long after the Parousia. By what authority are some of these passages applied to Heaven? It seems to either be an overlooked holdover from those dreaded futurist "traditions", or come from a realization that without these passages, there is virtually no teaching on Heaven at all! The only sure references to it left are those solidly mentioning death or paradise:
(Heb. 9:27—judgment;
Phil. 1:21-23— "gain"/"with Christ";
Rev. 14:13—"rest"/"works follow with" us;
Matt. 22:30/Mk. 12:25/Lk. 20:36—"like angels"
2 Cor.12:4 "unspeakable words" in "the third heaven/paradise").
All but the last two of those five descriptions are things that can be, and in fact have been, said to apply to life in this age. (The judgment of all was in AD70, so everyone now without Christ is already judged; We are "with Christ" now, and just our spiritual life is "gain"; we have "rest" in Jesus, and those who did good works back then were given "rule over the nations" as part of the Church. But even in the last, the possible "out of body" experience, keep in mind, was a spiritual vision; not death!) How do we even know that there will be "unimaginable joys" in Heaven? If all of those other promises are applied to this age in which we still do suffer and grow old and die, then how do we even know it will not be the same after we die; only we still hold the same "spiritual blessings" perceived by faith and not sight (i.e. "without observation") that we hold today?
Yes, this is spiritually "the Kingdom", but not the final complete manifestation of it. If you insist that it is, then what is this "heavenly existence" you speak of for? All of the promises we associate with it, you say we have now? Will not that experience of Kingdom existence be greater than this one? If so, then this is not complete, and the only difference between preterists and futurists is whether our bodies are risen and transformed into it, or only our spirits. The contexts of 1 Cor. and 2.Cor are clearly about our physical bodies. Christ's BODY was rise, not just His spirit.
OK, but still, this does not negate their actual literal resurrections, as taught by 1 Cor.15
I said it before, and you completely missed it, but it is so clear.
Rev. 20:5 "and the rest of the dead LIVED not AGAIN until the thousand years were complete". No, the word "second" is not used, but the fact that a "FIRST" resurrection is mentioned specifies that there is at least one other. This the preterists are silent on.
[ January 24, 2005, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
But it must, for Christ himslef said it would ocour "immediatly after the tribulation".
Even "1000 years is as a day" can not answer to he word "immediatly"
Based only on what you yourself have determined that SHOULD look like, framed by your futurist bias.
Name me one nation that has authority and power above the present rule and reign of Christ today.
Paul was talking to them only.
The Bible was not written TO us. That in no way means it was not written FOR us however.
Philippians 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.
Are you waiting for Timothy's SOON arrival to you Eric?
Why not? Paul is speaking to all Christians, not Just the Phillippians, right?
If this passage is not for YOU, than the Bible nothing more than a history book and useless for today, right?
What makes the "you" in Php 2 "specific" to the Philippians, while the "you" in the previously cited Thessalonain passage "generic"?
Demonstrate your hermeneutic.
Rather it was TOTAL fulfillment. Paul was speaking specifically to this particular set of circumstances which would come to an end for them via Christ's appearing from heaven with great power and glory.
Nothing in the text indicates there would be an end to their particular trouble anytime prior to the one and only parousia of Christ.
You have created it out of the need to fit the text with your view.
Rather, persecuted Christians can read of this fulfilled promise, recognize that God is a Just God, and apply that knowledge to their current situation to glean comfort. The specific event does not get fulfilled over and over and over and over for every generation of persecuted Christians, as you would have it.
Also, There is no "Gentile world" today.
Gentile was a term used to differentiate other peoples from the covenant nation of Jews.
That covenant nation no longer exists. there is no Jew/gentile seperation anymore.
As Paul so plainly stated, the Thessalonians would receive rest via the one and only parousia of Christ.
Your view is being read into the text to suit your bias, I'm simply taking the text at face value.
If they are at rest, the parousia is past.
Saved from the presence of Sin?
Waht power does the presence of sin currently have over the believer?
Sin as a state of being is an eternal reality.
Sin will always exist.
Your issue seems to have more to do with the LOCATION of sin than with the existance of it
But neither the OT prophets, NT apostles, nor Jesus himslef taught that the "stages" would extend beyond the messianic generation.
That idea is a later addition of uninspired men attempting to fit the scriptures with what they perceived as non ocourrance.
Scripture please.
Again, scripture please.
I see you continue make this assertion, but I see no scriptural support.
But I am arguing for instantanious fulfillment, eternal application.
You are arguing for partial fulfillment spread out in some unknown fashion over all generations, (skipping a few in the middle of course), against what you agree the prophesies proclaim.
What changed?
The Establishment of the New covenant in it's fulness.
The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches sinners and saints will live together on earth forever. The saints inside the city of the new jerusalem, the sinners outside, with the saints calling out for them to "come drink the water of Life" (Rev 21-22)
merely in response to your assertion that things are getting worse and therefore it's a "sign" of some kind.
My assertions were merely to demonstrate no such "sign" exists today.
Right, it is not "of this world" but it surely is "IN this world", and it is about subduing kingdoms and establishing righteousness. That is our calling, our mission, our right, and we cannot fail.
You assume the "wrestling" Paul was referring to was to continue past the parousia.
Your view has satan being the responsible party and humans merely pawns with no accountability.
"Flip Wilson theology"
quote:
Then why did Paul tell the Roman Christians:
"And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly."
Actually, Christ bound Satan prior to the Cross, but as long as the Old Covenant was operational, He remained the accuser.
AD70 changed all that.
Interesting assertion.
Where does the Bible teach it?
So you are saying that one day those who reject Christ will share in Christ's victory over Satan?
Scripture please.
Yes they were.
Prove this.
Cite that promise
....GTG....more later
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Lastdazed: //But it must, for Christ himslef said it would ocour
"immediatly after the tribulation".//
Your "it" is unclear. Delineate in writing what Christ
said himself would occour "immediately after the tribulation".
Recommend reading Matthew 24:29-30 before you answer.
BTW, the most common method of interperting your statement
would make it read:
But it must, for Christ himslef said it (destruction of the temple)
would ocour "immediatly after the tribulation".
That fact seems to be missing from my Bible.
One think that i believe Christ said would happen "immediately
after the tribulation" is the phrase in Matthew 24:30b
(HCSB):
... and then all the peoples of the earth
will mourn ...
but an alternate reading would be:
... and then all the tribes of the land
will beat their breasts ...
I know for a fact we who are in Christ shall NOT be
mourning nor beating our breats. We shall be rejoicing
that Jesus finally came to rapture/resurrect us.
So i believe this event will Not be the same as the
rapture/resurrection which will happen at the beginning of
the Tribulation Period. This event is the end of the day (7-years)
coming of Jesus at the end of the Tribulatin Period whose purpose
is the destuction of the Antichrist specifically and the works
of Satan generally.
"immediatly after the tribulation".//
Your "it" is unclear. Delineate in writing what Christ
said himself would occour "immediately after the tribulation".
Recommend reading Matthew 24:29-30 before you answer.
BTW, the most common method of interperting your statement
would make it read:
But it must, for Christ himslef said it (destruction of the temple)
would ocour "immediatly after the tribulation".
That fact seems to be missing from my Bible.
One think that i believe Christ said would happen "immediately
after the tribulation" is the phrase in Matthew 24:30b
(HCSB):
... and then all the peoples of the earth
will mourn ...
but an alternate reading would be:
... and then all the tribes of the land
will beat their breasts ...
I know for a fact we who are in Christ shall NOT be
mourning nor beating our breats. We shall be rejoicing
that Jesus finally came to rapture/resurrect us.
So i believe this event will Not be the same as the
rapture/resurrection which will happen at the beginning of
the Tribulation Period. This event is the end of the day (7-years)
coming of Jesus at the end of the Tribulatin Period whose purpose
is the destuction of the Antichrist specifically and the works
of Satan generally.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Lastdazed: "As Paul so plainly stated, the Thessalonians
would receive rest via the one and only parousia of Christ."
in the words of Lastdazed: "Scripture please."
I believe the Thessalonians will receive rest
via the parousia of Christ. I question the
scriptural correctioness of "one and only parousia of Christ".
Scripture please.
----------------------------------
Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.
1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)
2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)
3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)
4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)
5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins
6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)
7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)
8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)
9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)
10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.
11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)
12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).
would receive rest via the one and only parousia of Christ."
in the words of Lastdazed: "Scripture please."
I believe the Thessalonians will receive rest
via the parousia of Christ. I question the
scriptural correctioness of "one and only parousia of Christ".
Scripture please.
----------------------------------
Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.
1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)
2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)
3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)
4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)
5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins
6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)
7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)
8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)
9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)
10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.
11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)
12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).
No, your interpretation of the passage ("It must"; I guess that's your conterpart to my "obviously"!
Name me one nation that EVER had authority and power above rule and reign of Christ (or God in the OT)! No, the nation (or "Kingdom") of Israel was physically subdued, but then we're not talking physically, are we? Physically and spiritually, it was always the same. Spiritually, God rules, but He has allowed godless nations to rule in the physical realm, and His followers are [physically, but not spiritually] subject to them (Rom.13)
Because now he's mentioning an individual person. That is not universal to Christians, but persecution generally is (though we've been spared). Preterists try to make this distinction between "TO" and "FOR", but with your logic then, it would not even be "FOR" us!
But it didn't really come to an end in AD70. It just changed from one group of persecutors (Jews) to another (Romans). The only thing that was fulfilled was that now they were exhonerated of the Old COvenant system (and thus, the partial, typical significance of that event), but there were still persecutors whom Christ promises to repay. IT is Christ's literal return to earth in power and glory when all of this will end.
Who said anything about it ending before? Unless you're granting me my future "Coming" for argumaent's sake and saying that their "particular" trouble ended before it. But their particular trouble is PART of the trouble all Christians have faced. We are not in a vacuum, but supposedly are all in it together. This will not end before Christ's coming.
But then what HOPE is left for them, then? They already have all the promises, according to you. I guess it's just dying and floating off to HEaven. Where we are told that to die is gain, that is never left as the ONLY hope for Christians. There was BOTH the hope of either being resurrected if already dying, or being caught up if still alive. But then again, the whole NT was written before this "parousia", so I guess it all changed. I guess then there should have been some new scriptures afterwards for us. (That would be the true "NT").
You are the one who keeps saying "OVER and OVER". IT is not the same thing over and over, but rather is a COMMON event that is ONGOING.
The scripture you are referencing refers to the spiritual "Kingdom"; the Church. There is no more Jew and Gentile in Christ. I'm talking about the world outside of Christ. Still, whether we argue about whether physical Israel still has any significance before God is not the point. If you consider the Jews as part of "the nations" (Goyim or "gentiles"), still, Christians continue to face persecution (including from Jews in Israel, when Jewish Christians try to move there!). So the passage does still apply to them.
No you are not; you are grossly trying to spiritualize the texts away.
You keep saying "the ARE at rest", but none of them are still alive. They "are" at rest by virtue of being dead in Christ. They did not rest physically after Jewish persecution ended and Roman persecution continued (and that for those of them who even lived to AD70). Spiritually, if they had rest after the Jews were destroyed, they had it before then too. The spiritual "coming" of Christ to the Church was the Holy Spirit in AD30 or 33. That was the beginning of their spiritual life, not any other "spiritual coming" afterward; else you rnder the Holy Spirit ineffective. The destruction further confirmed them, that's all. The problem with preterism, once again is that you switch back and forth between spiritual and physical meanings/fulfillments when it suits you.
But then you say
Neither does scripture teach that, the way you are taking it. That is a later addition of uninspired men attempting to fit the scriptures with what in their theory should have occurred, but now they have to take anything and force it in as some sort of "spiritual" fulfillment. I've seen it go many ways, even among perterists. I have seen preterists on another board argue for either an AD96 or AD30 "Parousia", using the same methods. All of this overboard spiritualization leaves us no solid ground to stand on.
That is precisely what your view is describing. In mine, things are typically fulfilled (better word than "partially"), back then, then literally fulfilled in the future. It is the literal fulfillment that is "instantaneously" fulfilled, and then "eternally" applied. It is in your view that it is only partially applied (and thus really, only partially fulfilled, but you won't admit that), and then spread out over unknown number of generations (skipping those where the true Church was diminished down to almost nothing) until some hypothetical future when the entire world is subdued.
The scriptures on Christ actually subduing all of the nations, after destroying gentile armies fighting Him. Now, just because you spiritualize these away into nothing, do not say that I have not given them.
That does not answer the question. Nations and kings fell before AD70, just like they do now. How is Christ subduing the nations (in any sense, spiritual or otherwise) He wasn't before?
Because we still suffer physically, and even struggle with our own flesh. God does care abouyt this too, and will remedy it. Else, what is your "Heaven" for; or will it be free of suffering as well?
THat's right. It's all about "location". That's what "Separation" is all about. The only ones who continue to suffer for eternity are people who have lived and made their final decision and died. Not the same as in this earth, where children are born and tortured in various places, as an example, and other people suffering for things that weren't their fault. Hell is a facet of eternal justice. The current earth is a place of injustice (so the issue is not just "sin and suffering" for eternity, but justice. So there is no comparison.
That ASSUMES that the bid to "come" is aimed at the people THEN. It looks to me, from the context, to be a bid to the READER of the book NOW (beginning with John's original readers, of course. Instead, we get the warning "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still". (22:11) meaning there is a cutoff point, and that one day, those outside will be forever barred outside, from the city (20:10, Jude 13, etc.)
Once again, in your view, aren't we finally "separated" when ur spirits float off to Heaven, and the uinsaved to Hell? (The only difference between the views is whether the bodies are ever resurrected. However, I have seen preterists on the other board who do seem to think there is NOTHING after this, and that would be a consistent view, thus proving preterism is Sadduceeism!)
I was not necesarily saying it was a sign, though I think it might be. I was just saying that there is no guarantee that the church is taking over the whole world.
No, our calling and mission is to go out and preach the Gospel of Christ and warn people of Christ's return (or resurrection and judgment for those who don't live to see it). This is not "subduing" at this point, and it is only your interpretation which necessitates forcing everything into AD70. When we spread the Gospel, and more people get saved, it may have an impact in a nation, but not necessarily, and it is not subduing the nation. Salvation is individual now, not national. Even if Christians do happen to take over a nation, it can go corrupt, as it has in the past under Church rule. The Church, (using a sort of preterist theology) tried in the past, and it just led to the abandonment of Christianity in much of Western culture. Any way you try to look at it, there is something beyond this, some greater fulfillment of the promises. Whatever AD70 was, it was but a shadow of what we will have when Christ really subdues the nations.
That is not true. Humans are accountable to choose their master; either Satan or Christ. That is a ridiculous charge against futurism, though some people do get into blaming Satan too much for things. If there is no more Satan, then who are those who reject Christ under? Christ said everyone is under a master. There is no neutral ground. The preterists on the other board I have een mentioning also believe unversal salvation. That is also consistent with your view that people are not under Satan.
No, because God still has a Law that we "sin" against by breaking. He still puts guilt in us, and leads scoffers to mock Christians as phony because they have faults, or because of what Christians did wrong in the past, or whatever. All of this is but a continuation of what Satan did to Christians through the OT system. Once again, we can read of Satan "the accuser of the bretheren" and take comfort from that just as they did, like you say.
Of course no scripture is going to SAY "if it's true now, it will still be true after AD70". But from actual experience, it is definitely true. Some preterists claim that Satan's presence on eart was marked by demonic possession, which they claimed peaked in the war, but then ended for good in AD70. But it is highly debatable whether there is no possession today, though skeptics might not believe it. There are many people that spiritually perceptive Christians identify as appearing demon possessed. Sometimes you can see it right in the eyes. So this would not help the full preterist, unless you conclude it is all their imagination, like the skeptics do. There may be many abuses of the concepts of spiritual warfare and claims of exorcism and "binding" demons in many charismatic churches and some cults, but this does not mean all spiritual warfare is phony.
But Satan is not only behind "possession", but also the father of lies, and lies increased more than ever after AD70, when even the Church now fell headlong into darkness, and the entire civilization entered the Dark Ages; a label that is not even applied to those earlier ages of paganism and Israel under the Law! (To our shame, Matt.6:23!) The passage says he shall "deceive the nations no more"!
Where did you get that from? Never even suggested anything like that! Those who reject Christ and die in that state willbe separated, along with their father Satan, forever. Now there are some, who reject Christ, who will one day accept Him; these will share in Christ's victory.
No they weren't. Who first deceived man in Genesis? Who led men after the Flood to set up idol worship? All of this was before AD70, but continued long past, to the present. Many of the same religions and concepts from before Christ are the ones still practiced in those societies (and in many cases, rapidly spreading to ours!) Remember, "Gentiles sacrifice...to devils and not to God" (1 Cor.10:20); "Whoever sins [i.e and remains not covered by the Blood of Christ] is of the Devil" (1 John 3:8-10). So now, they're not of the Devil? Are they of Christ? Or is there some neutral position now?
His casting into the Lake of Fire.
Sure thang.
The following is the ENTIRE body scriptures that mention the "parousia" by name. Note they all speak of the same event, the "ONE AND ONLY" parousia of Christ:
Mt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming,[parousia] and of the end of the world?
Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be.
Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jas 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh
2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Now then, your turn...
Show me the scripture that supports your assertion that the 1st century Thessalonians are still being persecuted today.