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Preterism
- Thread starter 13th Disciple
- Start date
I believe he can take that form, yes, just as he did as a serpent in the garden of Eden.
I also believe the two witnesses are real people.
I also believe in a literal Great Flood.
I also believe there will be a literal mark in the hand or forehead, possibly a computer chip.
I also believe Jesus will Rule and Reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem for 1000 years -literally.
I also believe Job lived and the events in Job happened just as the Bible says.
I also believe Jesus Christ was born of a virgin - literally.
I don't believe the Bible is literature - I believe it is the inspired Word of God.
I believe in accepting what the Bible says in a literal sense except when to do so is utter nonsense, such as Jesus being a literal green ivy vine or a literal wooden door.
But, excuse me - this is a thread about what YOU believe - so please explain to me what method you use to pick and choose.
I also believe the two witnesses are real people.
I also believe in a literal Great Flood.
I also believe there will be a literal mark in the hand or forehead, possibly a computer chip.
I also believe Jesus will Rule and Reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem for 1000 years -literally.
I also believe Job lived and the events in Job happened just as the Bible says.
I also believe Jesus Christ was born of a virgin - literally.
I don't believe the Bible is literature - I believe it is the inspired Word of God.
I believe in accepting what the Bible says in a literal sense except when to do so is utter nonsense, such as Jesus being a literal green ivy vine or a literal wooden door.
But, excuse me - this is a thread about what YOU believe - so please explain to me what method you use to pick and choose.
BrotherJoe
New Member
13th Disciple,
This is from a Primitive Baptist elder Michael Gowens commenting on Preterism,
"1) THE PRETERIST VIEW: Preterists believe that the book was written near the end of the reign of Nero (A.D. 54-68). They tend, consequently, to ascribe fulfillment of the prophecies to the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70), the fall of the Roman Empire, or both. The "preterist" view argues that the phrase "...things which must shortly come to pass" (1:3) makes an immediate fulfillment essential. Early dating (A.D. 67-68) is crucial to the preterist’s argument.
The preterist view, furthermore, asserts that the book was written to encourage believers who were suffering persecution in the early church period. Although preterists apply the fulfillment of Revelation’s prophecy to A.D. 70, they believe that the principles of conflict and encouragement presented in the book have a wider application to Christians in subsequent eras.
The primary argument against the Preterist position concerns the dating of the book. Was it written in A.D. 67-68 during Nero’s reign, or, as most Bible students and church historians agree, in A.D. 81-96 during the reign of Flavius Domitian? In the light of the fact that John’s Gospel and three Epistles were written near the end of the first century (A.D. 90’s) and the fact that Paul’s apostleship, not John’s, was in the fore during Nero’s reign, the argument for the later date seems more plausible. Obviously, if Revelation was written in A.D. 96, then it could not have been fulfilled a quarter century earlier in A.D. 70. Substantial arguments can be made for both dates, but the sheer discrepancy and uncertainty of the autographic date should give the believer pause before he embraces the preterist view dogmatically.
Personally, I struggle with the idea that a prophetic book like Revelation (1:3) has no future relevance. Yes, there are Old Testament books aplenty that must be interpreted only in terms of past history (with, of course, an application of spiritual principles to every successive era - Rom. 15:4), but the tone of those books is primarily historical. The tone of Revelation, on the contrary, is prophetic. Seeing the prophetic nature of this book, is it reasonable to assume that the last book of the Bible has no direct relevance to believers who lived after A.D. 70?
Though I do not mean to imply that all preterists who consign Revelation to the past are reacting against man’s natural fascination with the future, on the one hand, and man’s natural fear of the unknown, on the other hand (such an implication would be to disregard the substantive arguments of preterism), yet it is possible that some have opted for the preterist view simply in reaction to the weird and frightening way some Bible teachers have explained the book. Whether or not this position is hermeneutically accurate, I can understand the psychological attraction of the preterist view."
The whole article is entitled Revelationg:The Big Picture. Gowens presents four differing perspectives on how scholars generally interpret the book of Revelation. If interested the link is http://www.sovgrace.net/rev.htm
God Bless you,
Brother Joe
This is from a Primitive Baptist elder Michael Gowens commenting on Preterism,
"1) THE PRETERIST VIEW: Preterists believe that the book was written near the end of the reign of Nero (A.D. 54-68). They tend, consequently, to ascribe fulfillment of the prophecies to the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70), the fall of the Roman Empire, or both. The "preterist" view argues that the phrase "...things which must shortly come to pass" (1:3) makes an immediate fulfillment essential. Early dating (A.D. 67-68) is crucial to the preterist’s argument.
The preterist view, furthermore, asserts that the book was written to encourage believers who were suffering persecution in the early church period. Although preterists apply the fulfillment of Revelation’s prophecy to A.D. 70, they believe that the principles of conflict and encouragement presented in the book have a wider application to Christians in subsequent eras.
The primary argument against the Preterist position concerns the dating of the book. Was it written in A.D. 67-68 during Nero’s reign, or, as most Bible students and church historians agree, in A.D. 81-96 during the reign of Flavius Domitian? In the light of the fact that John’s Gospel and three Epistles were written near the end of the first century (A.D. 90’s) and the fact that Paul’s apostleship, not John’s, was in the fore during Nero’s reign, the argument for the later date seems more plausible. Obviously, if Revelation was written in A.D. 96, then it could not have been fulfilled a quarter century earlier in A.D. 70. Substantial arguments can be made for both dates, but the sheer discrepancy and uncertainty of the autographic date should give the believer pause before he embraces the preterist view dogmatically.
Personally, I struggle with the idea that a prophetic book like Revelation (1:3) has no future relevance. Yes, there are Old Testament books aplenty that must be interpreted only in terms of past history (with, of course, an application of spiritual principles to every successive era - Rom. 15:4), but the tone of those books is primarily historical. The tone of Revelation, on the contrary, is prophetic. Seeing the prophetic nature of this book, is it reasonable to assume that the last book of the Bible has no direct relevance to believers who lived after A.D. 70?
Though I do not mean to imply that all preterists who consign Revelation to the past are reacting against man’s natural fascination with the future, on the one hand, and man’s natural fear of the unknown, on the other hand (such an implication would be to disregard the substantive arguments of preterism), yet it is possible that some have opted for the preterist view simply in reaction to the weird and frightening way some Bible teachers have explained the book. Whether or not this position is hermeneutically accurate, I can understand the psychological attraction of the preterist view."
The whole article is entitled Revelationg:The Big Picture. Gowens presents four differing perspectives on how scholars generally interpret the book of Revelation. If interested the link is http://www.sovgrace.net/rev.htm
God Bless you,
Brother Joe
13th Disciple
New Member
Thanks for the article Bro. Joe ; I'll sure read over it carefully tomorrow! I have talked with some that belong to popular mainstream churches who profess there isn't anything to Revelations and it's a coded rant against Roman rule ; this view was presented by a Mr. Fosdick in his Riverside sermons. How wrong can they be???
I view that it's simply a forewarning to the church that is present at these times! When the preterist use "shortly come to pass" since no man knows the day nor hour....I feel GOD wanted His people to be good watchmen and always be prepared for his return! I fear this teaching will promote loose living and declining morals to this church age! I hate to see any Christian deceived by heresy!!!
One argued that the Book that was sent to the seven churches shows that it was for them only but since John was considered spiritual advisor to these churches....who else could he send it to? Also wanting to alarm them to what he witnessed plus preserve it for whoever would be alive at this time in history!
This is a strange group...logic would tell them ; third of the population wasn't killed in 70 ad ; third of the trees weren't burned in 70 ad , Mount of Olives wasn't split in half by Christ return ; Luke 21-24 clearly states that they will fall by the sword and be led away captive and Jerusalem will be troddened down by the gentiles UNTIL the times of the gentiles are fulfilled! I'm not a genius but if they are being killed by the edge of the sword and being led away captive in 70 ad....until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled HAS to happen later in history!
Anyways..I read the article and GOD bless Bro. Joe!!!
I view that it's simply a forewarning to the church that is present at these times! When the preterist use "shortly come to pass" since no man knows the day nor hour....I feel GOD wanted His people to be good watchmen and always be prepared for his return! I fear this teaching will promote loose living and declining morals to this church age! I hate to see any Christian deceived by heresy!!!
One argued that the Book that was sent to the seven churches shows that it was for them only but since John was considered spiritual advisor to these churches....who else could he send it to? Also wanting to alarm them to what he witnessed plus preserve it for whoever would be alive at this time in history!
This is a strange group...logic would tell them ; third of the population wasn't killed in 70 ad ; third of the trees weren't burned in 70 ad , Mount of Olives wasn't split in half by Christ return ; Luke 21-24 clearly states that they will fall by the sword and be led away captive and Jerusalem will be troddened down by the gentiles UNTIL the times of the gentiles are fulfilled! I'm not a genius but if they are being killed by the edge of the sword and being led away captive in 70 ad....until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled HAS to happen later in history!
Anyways..I read the article and GOD bless Bro. Joe!!!
I agree with those who have stated that if we are dealing with full preterism we definately have a serious problem. I can see the view of partial preterist to an extent, although I dont agree. The full preterist teaches that Jesus has already returned, the resurrection of the saints has taken place, and that both of these are spiritual rather than physical. So there is no future literal physical return of Jesus and no full body resurrection of the saints. Both in my view are heresy.
Bro Tony
Bro Tony
13th Disciple
New Member
Would this be Harry Emerson Fosdick, the infidel? </font>[/QUOTE]You would be correct!!! This group (not calling names) is very liberal in all views and doctrine!
You just met another.
Do you consider Paul as inspired?
Col.1:6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world ( ko/smov ) bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation
(ktiðsiv)under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister
Romans 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations ( eáqnov) unto obedience of faith:
Romans But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth ( gh=), And their words unto the ends of the world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ).
Just what is the Biblical definition of "times of the Gentiles"? Not Hal Lindsey's, the Biblical definition.
It's because not alot of people can refute it. As I'm finding out from reading your post.
,
What a sad life.
Partial-preterism is attractive, however it led me straight to full-preterism.
See how many times the word knowledge is used in the NT and see what it is referring to.
Ken, I believe the real debate is in the preterist area. Either full or partial. I'm beyond even considering the dispie view as possible.
Read some commentaries of men like Gill, Matthew Henry, Lightfoot, Clark etc and you will see how your list is in error among scholars pre-Darby.
And you have to ignore plain time-statements given by inspired writers to dismiss preterism and hold to your futurism.
Do you take Rev, 1:1,3 literally? How about James 5:8 or I Peter 4:7? What do you do with Matt 16:27-28?
Ken, you should know better. Have you not read Spurgeon or John Owens' descriptions of the New Heavens and Earth?
1. Preterist do not deny resurrection.
2. It is hard to take someone seriously about their eschatology when they keep referring to Revelation as Revelations.
Because it follows the pattern of OT "comings".
Here is what John Gill says:
and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven,
with power and great glory.
The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in Matthew 26:64. Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment; though that will be in the clouds of heaven, and with great power and glory; but his coming to bring on, and give the finishing stroke to the destruction of that people, which was a dark and cloudy dispensation to them: and when they felt the power of his arm, might, if not blind and stupid to the last degree, see the glory of his person, that he was more than a mere man, and no other than the Son of God, whom they had despised, rejected, and crucified; and who came to set up his kingdom and glory in a more visible and peculiar manner, among the Gentiles.
John Lightfoot says this:
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man.] Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, whom they would not before acknowledge: as proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall now him, whether they will or no, Isaiah 26:11. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messias, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world.
I don't think it will take 10 years, at least I hope not. So why do you think preterism will grow if Christ doesn't return "soon"? You're statement is very telling.
Except of course all the obvious time-statements. We must ignore or re-define those. I just love the "I take the Bible literal" defense.
So you're not quite the literalist you pretend to be. You take the statements concerning the nature of the prophecies literally but not the timing statements literal.
So He tricked/decieved them into believing it was near.
Is that what you would do if you believed Jesus kept His promises? Is this your motivation?
Read any "Left Behind"?
James_Newman
New Member
My pastor has written quite a few articles refuting preterism. You can find good answers to just about any argument they can raise.
http://www.kingdombaptist.org/module_articles.cfm#39
The fact that Israel is back in their land should be enough to show how foolish this idea is, but despite the fact that history has begun to unfold just as premils have always taught, preterism is growing. It is just part of the falling away.
http://www.kingdombaptist.org/module_articles.cfm#39
The fact that Israel is back in their land should be enough to show how foolish this idea is, but despite the fact that history has begun to unfold just as premils have always taught, preterism is growing. It is just part of the falling away.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Maybe someone who knows Biblical Geography better than I can elaborate, but I believe the land that God originally gave the Jews was much bigger than modern day Israel.
Joseph Botwinick
What prophecy is fulfilled by mostly agnostics and atheist living in modern Israel?
Book, chapter, and verse please.
Maybe someone who knows Biblical Geography better than I can elaborate, but I believe the land that God originally gave the Jews was much bigger than modern day Israel.
Joseph Botwinick
See if THIS helps, Joseph!
http://www.zioninprophecy.com/pages/land/messianic_map_of_israel.html
Joseph Botwinick
See if THIS helps, Joseph!
http://www.zioninprophecy.com/pages/land/messianic_map_of_israel.html
Grasshopper, with all due respect, may I suggest you study a little history?
Jerusalem was soon rebuilt after Titus' forces destroyed it. The Jews were REALLY dispersed by Hadrian's forces in 136 AD. Hadrian also gave their land to the Philistines. They were called PALESTINIANS & the land PALESTINE, which are the Latin forms of Philistines & Philistia respectively.
Jesus predicted Jerusalem's destruction in Luke 21, calling that time "days of vengeance". Vengeance for WHAT? Why, the many years of sin by the Jews, THAT'S what! That prophecy of Jesus was fulfilled precisely. Titus' army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, & many of them fell by the sword, both by Titus'army(Titus served Vespasian) and by hadrian's army. It was Hadrian who ordered that the Jews be removed from their land, and outta the Roman Empire in general. They were indeed led captive into many nations, and the gentiles occupied Jerusalem, with very few Jews left. Remember, Jesus warned the people to get outta ALL JUDEA when the signs occurred, NOT just outta Jerusalem.Hadrian and his army unknowingly fulfilled that part of His prophecy.And Jesus said that would be the situation TILL THE TIME OF THE GENTILES IS FULFILLED.
There are signs that time is indeed almost fulfilled, but not quite. There are still more gentiles than Jews in Jerusalem...BUT JUDAH HAS MADE IT ITS CAPITOL AGAIN, and shame on any diaper-heads who'd dare attack Jerusalem.
Once those gentile times are over, the rest of Jesus'prophecy will come to pass. I believe another planet will cause great chaos on earth by a "CLOSE ENCOUNTER OF THE WORST KIND". But that's for another discussion.
People sometimes mix up Jesus' prophecies in Luke with those in Revelation...and they ARE tied together, to a certain point. But in Luke He gives an overview, while He gives specifics in Rev.
Before forever, the Jews are gonna kick the diaper-heads outta Jerusalem & they're gonna open up a great big can of whup-butt on the Palestinians. A close reading of Zechariah will show you many details, some of which HAVE ALREADY COME TO PASS. An example..."a bastard(foreign people) shall dwell in Ashdod". To the Pals, the Jews ARE foreigners, and they firmly occupy Ashdod."And I shall cut off the pride of the Philistines". Indeed, their pride has been brought quite low. Ashdod has been permanently taken from them; their continued existence is only at the whim of the Jews, and it'll take only one heinous suicide bomb attack against the "wrong" Israelis such as a group of grade school kids, and that existence will be snuffed out in 3 days or less.
The few Pals left alive in Israel will be exalted by the Jews, prolly for ratting out the others. It's all in your Bible...Read all about it!
And if God doesn't shorten the REAL tribulation when it occurs, there'd be NO flesh left alive, not just no JEWS. Again, it's in your own Bible.
PRETERISM=MAN-MADE FALSE DOCTRINE
Jerusalem was soon rebuilt after Titus' forces destroyed it. The Jews were REALLY dispersed by Hadrian's forces in 136 AD. Hadrian also gave their land to the Philistines. They were called PALESTINIANS & the land PALESTINE, which are the Latin forms of Philistines & Philistia respectively.
Jesus predicted Jerusalem's destruction in Luke 21, calling that time "days of vengeance". Vengeance for WHAT? Why, the many years of sin by the Jews, THAT'S what! That prophecy of Jesus was fulfilled precisely. Titus' army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, & many of them fell by the sword, both by Titus'army(Titus served Vespasian) and by hadrian's army. It was Hadrian who ordered that the Jews be removed from their land, and outta the Roman Empire in general. They were indeed led captive into many nations, and the gentiles occupied Jerusalem, with very few Jews left. Remember, Jesus warned the people to get outta ALL JUDEA when the signs occurred, NOT just outta Jerusalem.Hadrian and his army unknowingly fulfilled that part of His prophecy.And Jesus said that would be the situation TILL THE TIME OF THE GENTILES IS FULFILLED.
There are signs that time is indeed almost fulfilled, but not quite. There are still more gentiles than Jews in Jerusalem...BUT JUDAH HAS MADE IT ITS CAPITOL AGAIN, and shame on any diaper-heads who'd dare attack Jerusalem.
Once those gentile times are over, the rest of Jesus'prophecy will come to pass. I believe another planet will cause great chaos on earth by a "CLOSE ENCOUNTER OF THE WORST KIND". But that's for another discussion.
People sometimes mix up Jesus' prophecies in Luke with those in Revelation...and they ARE tied together, to a certain point. But in Luke He gives an overview, while He gives specifics in Rev.
Before forever, the Jews are gonna kick the diaper-heads outta Jerusalem & they're gonna open up a great big can of whup-butt on the Palestinians. A close reading of Zechariah will show you many details, some of which HAVE ALREADY COME TO PASS. An example..."a bastard(foreign people) shall dwell in Ashdod". To the Pals, the Jews ARE foreigners, and they firmly occupy Ashdod."And I shall cut off the pride of the Philistines". Indeed, their pride has been brought quite low. Ashdod has been permanently taken from them; their continued existence is only at the whim of the Jews, and it'll take only one heinous suicide bomb attack against the "wrong" Israelis such as a group of grade school kids, and that existence will be snuffed out in 3 days or less.
The few Pals left alive in Israel will be exalted by the Jews, prolly for ratting out the others. It's all in your Bible...Read all about it!
And if God doesn't shorten the REAL tribulation when it occurs, there'd be NO flesh left alive, not just no JEWS. Again, it's in your own Bible.
PRETERISM=MAN-MADE FALSE DOCTRINE
I would love to. But I'm still waiting on Book, Chapter and verses. Also provide the verses for your planet Chaos theory.
James_Newman
New Member
What prophecy is fulfilled by mostly agnostics and atheist living in modern Israel?
Book, chapter, and verse please. </font>[/QUOTE]This is a straw man, GH. You understand that there would have to be a temple in Jerusalem in order for the prophecies to be literaly fulfilled in the future, and thus the necesity of Israel being in the land.
Can you show where 40 million abortions a year will be committed during the kingdom?
James_Newman
New Member
Salvation is not based on eschatology. Full preterists are just as saved as the rest of us with differing eschatological viewpoints who have come to Jesus in repentance and faith.