Prevenient Grace

skypair

(1) Belief and faith are differentiated in Scripture... JDale.

Cool, could you explain why Paul says he was saved in unbelief please? 1 Tim 1:13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Thanks.

john.

 

JDale.

RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

john.

 

That is probably the easy question set forth and I would be happy to answer it.

Here we see of whom Paul will be addressing, his brethren and kinsman according to the flesh. In Other Words - Israelites. We know this because the next verse declares this to be the case.

Now why didn't Paul say Jews?? Because he is about to expound on the history of Israel and it does not concern only Jews by blood who are Israelites. ALL Israelites pertain to the adoption, glory (honor), the convenants, the giving of the Law, service of or for God, and His promises. (and in verse 5 - the giving of Christ in the flesh - through THAT NATION)

All of these things are to the NATION (the people of, and those who left there people [Gentiles] and come to be among the Jews) and it was through the NATION these things came forth. Go back and look to whom the promises spoken of here are to, NOT an individual but to a Nation of people whom God hath called out and chosen to Himself. Even the promise of the Messiah was a promise to come through the line or lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and of Jacob (meaning of their desendents or people - thus it is called a Nation)

Paul is not speaking spiritually or allegorically here because context does not show him doing so. He is literally addressing the fact that some Jews or even Gentiles CAN refute that everyone who makes up Israel is NOT of Israeli desent. We KNOW scripturally that Gentiles came to be of Israel and a couple are even in the lineage of Jesus Himself. Not all Israel are OF Israel.

Knowing that Israel is the line of decent from Abraham, Paul also address the fact that not all of Abraham's seed or decendants are Israel either. But only the children of promise who bring forth His Chosen People or Nation.
Which brings us directly to the point I began exegeting the passage in its context where it speaks concerning the History of Israel through its federal heads as representitors of the people through which God used them to bring to pass the elected purposes He set forth upon men. The people whom God chose were the purveyors of His promise to bring forth a people (Nation), show forth His glory, bring forth the Law, and the Savior. It starts with Israel, speak of Israel in the middle and concludes with Isreal (in chapter 9 of which we are addressing)

And so begins the account of Israels history...

Chapter 9 IS about Gods Sovereignty but it is not about Gods soveriegnty in salvation but whom He will choose to do any and all His purposes as He decrees. Though Salvation is apart of His purposes through which the scope of His plan is revealed, it is not the main point being brough forth by Paul.

God will chose whom He will, to use as He chooses, for the fulfillment of His Purpose that His Plan may bring forth all things to His good pleasure.

 

John:

I think I made clear that this is a process -- that salvation -- the realization of one's need of salvation -- is a process of understanding, conviction, drawing....

Oh, and I believe all those scriptures too!

JDale

 

Hello JDale.

The only change I would make to the sentence you wrote above is, "If someone responds [positively] to whatever light they have....then they will eventually have the opportunity to hear the Gospel."

There's different ways of believing as you might be aware of. How does one not given the law get drawn to Jesus? How can one know that salvation is even possible or necessary unless one is made aware of the law? A guilty conscience doesn't help.
The scripture tells us that many were never given the law and Romans two says that those who do not have it revealed to them perish.
...then they will eventually have the opportunity to hear the Gospel. You think? Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ yet we see 'He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.'
How can one become aware of his needs if the book isn't present, unless someone goes and explains their need to them?

john.

 

Could I just add --- you KNOW how Paul was saved on the road to Emaus. Did you see "grace poured out on [Paul] abundantly?" No. We saw an encounter with Christ. We saw Paul believe and go where Christ had commanded him. We saw that scales fall off his eyes as will happen to Israel one day as well in the rebirth of Israel!!

There is your salvation example laid out as JDale describes it. Belief -- turn to Christ (obey) -- regeneration. Paul's 1Tim description is not the formula for salvation but a testimony of it's results just like "Whereas once I was blind, now I see").

skypair

 

Hello Allan.

I'll answer this as best I can.

That is not the point he is making, if I understand the point you are, it is to do with those who trace their line back to Jacob. They are not Israel just because they come from Jacob because it is through Isaac one becomes a child of God by right. For all other Jews salvation is by adoption into the line of Isaac.

Not all Americans are Americans means what?

He speaks of the Israelites that trace their line back to Jacob, these are those who Paul says, "Theirs is the adoption." Not all Israelites is it? Only those after the flesh and are from Jacob but they are not Israelites.

It's a bit difficult to get the right words. Would you care to correct me up to here?

john.

 

skypair.

could you explain why Paul says he was saved in unbelief please?

Much like my experience.

I accidently overheard a man saying in my Church one day soon after my joining that a man must do this or do that repenting thing for sins before they are saved. This disturbed me a great deal so I went to find the way a man must be to be saved, to discover the process. I found the process with Paul's help and my own experience. Like him I wasn't looking either. Like him I too was in unbelief The process is simple. Spirit gives birth to spirit the flesh counts for nothing. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and rely on nothing else. People should be more careful what they say as they sow fear and can damage young faith.

I see Paul experience a visit from Jesus as I did, convincingly. I see, "Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief the grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus."

Why don't you?

You have not had one?

Once he could see but now he was blind?

Paul says he was saved in unbelief doesn't he skypair? could you explain why Paul says he was saved in unbelief please? That's all I asked. It isn't a trick question is it?

john.

 

Actually, it goes back to Abraham who through the seed of promise (Isaac) would receive the fulness of the promises of God.

This is why scripture stated:

The seed of Abraham INCLUDED Ishmael who is also the first born. But the promise of a Nation (and all else) will come through Isaac and his decedents. You keep starting at Jacob for some reason when it begins with Abraham.

If they were adopted into the line of Isaac then why do they speak of their 'Father" Abraham and not Isaac. The promise was TO Abraham and his decendents but it was a specific line of decendents to which God refered. There is no scripture which states "for all other Jews salvation is by adoption into the line of Isaac."
Not trying to be mean but what kind of non-sense is that? All Jews were Jews because they originate from Abraham which decended through Isaac and was a People in/by Jacob. (one son of Abraham, one son of Isaac, all the sons of Jacob). This Adoption referenced is taking a people of a person and making them something they were never before. Specifically a people not Gods and making them a people of God to be seperated from the world from which the were called from. Actually the Jews didn't really have an adiquate name for it, but the gentile Romans did and Paul used it - Adoption. The Jews would take people in and care for them AS IF they were LIKE their own, even love them as one of their own, but there was nothing that made the legally a part of a family they were not originally from. They kept their family name where as adoption changes your family and makes you actually and legally one OF the NEW Family and NO LONGER apart of the old one.

It means there are people who are not Native Americans who are now Americans citizens. The Natives being the original group to have ownership and rights, share with others who have been "adopted" or Nationalized thereby legally now apart of the orginal.
Just like Israel and those not of Israel.

You keep starting with Jacob, why? Scripture say Abraham through the son of Promise Isaac...
You lost me here though, but I will try.
Those who trace the line back to Jacob are not Adopted into the line of Isaac SINCE THEY ARE in the line. They are DIRECT decendants. There is no need for adoption for those who are of direct lineage as theirs is inherantly the promises. Remember God re-established His promises with Isaac AND Jacob that He first made with and to Abraham. This is why we see the common phrase "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Jacob" because they were all confirmed to the same promises that began in Abraham.

 

John:

A couple of observations about your post...

(1) You say: The scripture tells us that many were never given the law and Romans two says that those who do not have it revealed to them perish.

Actually, that's NOT what Romans 2 says -- not the whole of what it says, anyway. Look carefully at this passage:

Romans 2:11-15: "For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. (For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law are justified; For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law unto themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)..."

This DOES NOT teach that not having the law means someone CANNOT be saved. THe Jews HAD the law, and many of them weren't saved! BUT, it does teach that the conscience is a God-given tool through which He may send light into the hearts of those who have not heard. The fact that their thoughts, their conscience BOTH "excuses" and "accuses" them demonstrates that, even though they do not have knowledge of God's law, they have a general sense of right and wrong -- of the moral vs. immoral. If they fail to accept or be open to what "light" they have, then the failure is theirs -- they supress the knowledge of God, the reject God's "drawing," and their judgment before God is just (Romans 2:16). This passage, understood correctly, renders your take on Romans 10:17 to be incorrect. The point of THAT passage is God's dealing with Israel as a nation, and their advantages in having had a past relationship (priovileges, benefits, etc.) with God vs. other nations. It does not, however, preculde that other nations -- or people -- can come to know Him.

Today in Sunday School, I read an enlightening story of how I believe God does His work of Prevenient Grace in real life. IN the "Explore the Bible" Quarterly for 4/22, the writer shares this story....

"Pastor Bo Ty is from Cambodia. In April 1975, after a 5 year struggle, Communist Khmer Rouge forces captured Phnom Penh, the capital. Around 2 million Cambodians died from execution, forced hardships, or starvation during the Khmer Rouge regime under Pol Pot. Bo Ty was targeted to be killed because he had been a policeman.

Taking his wife and young daughter, he started walking for the border, seeking to escape. Hiding during the day and walking at night, they got lost and became exhausted. Though they were not Christians, they prayed, asking God to guide them. The Lord miraculously led them to freedom.

Later Bo Ty and his family were able to travel to the United States and settled in Houston, Texas. The first week they were there, someone came to their apartment and invited them to go to church. There they learned about the God to whom they prayed. Before long, they became Christians...."

JDale

 

Hi John:

I thought Allan's views on this passage -- and his understanding of the role of Israel -- were pretty much right on. I'll give it a shot to answer the questions you asked me though.

In the Context of Romans 9, Paul is dealing with Jews who believe God has abandoned His covenant with Israel as a nation. He anticipates such a question In Romans 9:14, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness in God? Certainly not!" In essence, Paul anticipates that they (Jews) will accuse God of not keeping His covenant promises to Israel because He has now created the Chruch -- including MOSTLY Gentiles.

Paul illustrates that those born of Abrahamic ancestry -- in the flesh -- were not necessarily a part of God's covenant people -- illustrated by His choice of Isaac over Ishmael (Romans 9:7-9), AND illustrated by God's choice of Jacob as the progenitor of Israel, NOT his brother Esau (Romans 9:10-13). (Incidentally, THIS is the meaning of "election" in this passage -- it was God's choice of Jacob as one through whom He would create a nation, and eventually birth Messiah. It does NOT address "election" in the salvific sense.)

The bottom line, then -- on WHAT basis could God EXCLUDE Jews, sons of Abraham?? Didn't God make His promise to the NATION of Israel?

YES -- but not to every Israelite/Jew, because "they are not all Israel who are of Israel" (Romans 9:6). How is that possible?

Because "Israel [the majority of Jews as a nation at that time -- and to this time], pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained the law of righteousness. WHY? Because they did not seek it BY FAITH, but as it were by works of the Law, for they have stumbled at the stumbling stone" (Romans 9:31-33).

Bottom line -- Throughout history, in every age or dispensation, God has required FAITH in order to be "elect." Unbelieving Jews in Moses time, or Elijah's, or Jeremiahs, or Malachi's, or Jesus -- AND TODAY, must come to God BY FAITH (Hebrews 11).

THAT is how God makes a promise to Israel as a nation, but NOT to each individual person born of that nation.

JDale

 

I can see what you are saying and have no problem agreeing in that aspect as well, though (IMO) we must also remember there were ex-gentiles who were now Jews as well since it specifically refers to "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" - to quote Johns quote . Maybe it can be a combination, one or the other but what I do know is that Roman 9 is not contextually about election unto salvation. The context bears this out without question.

It is election to purpose.

 

I quite agree Allan -- I was approaching the passage from a different perspective, that's all!

Blessings,

JDale

 

I appreciate that you wrote it more articulately than I can.
I am a good orator but am sadly skilled in writting. Something my professors HATED! :laugh:

 

Hmmm.... Yes, some of my colleagues can be a bit picky, can't they?

:saint:

JDale

 

Hello Allan.

Direct descendants of who? But you stop at Jacob? So Paul isn't talking about the Jew he is talking about Jewish converts? RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Why was Paul convinced that he was adopted? Rom 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. ? There is no need for adoption for those who are of direct lineage as theirs is inherantly the promises. That's right by the way. Hereditary rights. Who inherits? The firstborn. Judah. Paul was from Benjamin and so he needs adopting.

Now I think I can ask again, who is this Israel who are not Israel?

I'm finding this passage and your writing very confusing, bear with me if I make errors as I'm liable to do so. Have I got it right?

Nationalized is what we might do to our rail system soon if Labour stay in power. Naturalized is what we call a person who has come from another country and has become British. They are treated as 100% Brits though, full legal standing the same with you Americans isn't it? Not all Americans are Americans is a meaningless statement isn't it? I can see the effort that strangers in Israel could be said to be adopted but now you have the problem of Paul's adoption as a son of God awaiting the resurrection. Rom 8:23.


john.

 

JDale.

Let's take it slow, you are telling me things I must assimilate, Borg like, help yourself to the one I just sent please.

john.

 

Allen - JDale.

Thank you for your slow down but if I may be contrary, can we start moving again please? My points gentlemen.

john.

 

No, there is no problem. Paul was speaking in chapter 8 of a Spiritual adoption which he called "the Spirit of adoption" - where by we actually recieve the Holy Spirit and are in a relationship the OT saints never experienced. For unlike us, they could not call The God - our Father.

There is no problem with with text, only your implied presupposition which inables you to see the simple context and meaning with Paul emphatically states.

The adoption in chapter 9 specifically references the physical adoption of a people or Nation (Abraham and specific of his descendents) unto himself who were NOT a people or Nation for and of God before.

There are not "strangers" in Israel PRETENDING to be Israelites. But they were non-Jewish people (gentiles) who had come INTO the Jewish Faith. Thus not all Israel is Israel, for not all which consist in Israel are pure Jewish descendents from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

For better and further clarification go back and read Post #263 and #269

You have to take the whole context and not just single one liners.

 

Hello Allan.

Since Abraham is the father of the faith I should imagine we call Him the same as he called Him. The faith has not changed.

DT 32:6 Is this the way you repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?
PS 89:26 He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'
ISA 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father , Prince of Peace.

ISA 63:16 But you are our Father , though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

JER 3:4 Have you not just called to me: `My Father , my friend from my youth,
JER 3:19 "I myself said, " `How gladly would I treat you like sons and give you a desirable land, the most beautiful inheritance of any nation.' I thought you would call me `Father' and not turn away from following me.

PR 4:3 When I was a boy in my father's house, still tender, and an only child of my mother, 4 he taught me and said, "Lay hold of my words with all your heart; keep my commands and you will live.

I think our brothers and sisters knew Him as Father God. Would you like to comment on this Allan as it seems you use it to support your contention.

john.