"Private Interpretation"

[Alofa Atu]

So says the person who started ....

Now, did you actually want to address my point, since it is on OP topic, about 'private interpretation'? How do you address my questions in regards Revelation 12?

1. Is the woman still pregnant (with child) in Rev. 12:1-2,5?

2. Is the “great red Dragon” also “in heaven” ready to devour the ‘man child’ as soon as He is born in Rev. 12:3-5, and if so, is the devil in Heaven right now with this ‘Mary’ then?

3. Does the Bible anywhere say that ‘Mary’, whether dead or alive, was ‘assumed’ bodily into Heaven?

4. Is the context or Rev. 12:1-2 in pre-AD (Anno Domini) times, since the child was not yet born and the 'woman' still pregnant?

5. Is the context of Rev. 11:15-19 in post BC (Before Christ) times, even at the end of time, during the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:15), wherein the 7 last plagues are mentioned (Rev. 11:18, ‘thy wrath is come’)

It's simple. The questions are based upon what the text plainly says. You do not have to worry about anything else, just address the questions.

 

[utilyan]

You will have to explain what you mean here, as I choose not to guess at it.

Ellen G White. Her authority and her writings as holy scripture. When you say "HOLY SCRIPTURES" you are talking about something totally different as when a Mormon does.

That is why from the moment we met I drilled you on where did you get your scripture or who else has better understanding of Christianity.

The reason she is kept in the closet is because you know well you are going to get NO WHERE with any christian outside of the bible.

If the shoe was on the other foot, I would have came up front with Ellen G White.

No the thing is you got to sucker a person into a fake christianity and when they are all well invested, oh by the way we have a prophetess. Which is probably the same order you got suckered into that faith.

How would have it all played out if up front someone approached you, We have a prophetess on earth, listen to the words of our goddess, No I don't think so.

No they got to butter you up first, build on a foundation of whats wrong with everyone else first rather then foundation of what they are itself.

 

[utilyan]

This is obvious even now. 95% of what you talk about is what is wrong with everyone else. You are foundation dependent on failure of another faith.

Know how many times we got to mention on another religion to get our point across? ZERO. Because the truth can stand up by itself.

You have not shown your faith to do that or to introduce any novel new or good contribution other than the hatred of others.

In fact you need other faiths just like Nazis need their Jews.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Ellen G White. Her authority and her writings as holy scripture. When you say "HOLY SCRIPTURES" you are talking about something totally different as when a Mormon does. ...

Consider, the position of sister White, is exactly the position of any prophet/messenger in scripture which has written material but was not included in canon of scripture.

1 Chronicles 29:29 - "... and in the book of Gad the seer,"

Do you happen to know where I can find "Gad the seer's" book in the OT canon?

The Bible speaks about "the law" and "the testimony" (Isaiah 8:20)

Let me give a for instance:

When Moses wrote Gen to Deut, that was considered "the Law". Afterward came "testimony", such as Samuel, or say Isaiah.

When Isaiah was finally incorporated, then came along Jeremiah, who was the living "testimony", which had to agree with all that went before, unto the standard which was Exodus 20:1-17, God's writing.

Later on, came along Daniel, and was the "testimony", who likewise had to agree with all that went before.

Do this unto Malachi. Then you have a circa 400 year gap, and then comes John the Baptist, Jesus and the Apostles and other prophets (Paul). They become the "testimony" that had to agree with everything gone before.

There are others, but fast forward to sister White. What was given to her, would be "testimony" (not hers, but of Jesus, "the testimony of Jesus", see Rev.).

The writings of sister White are not scripture canon, and no one claim them to be. They are called "testimony". Was she as inspired as the prophets/messengers in scripture? Yes, no doubt The material which is the 'testimony" is as inspired as Daniel's material, or Isaiah's, or Jeremiah's, Ezekiel's, or even Moses. Is that material then scripture canon? No. It is to be tested by scripture canon.

 

[Alofa Atu]

...That is why from the moment we met I drilled you on where did you get your scripture or who else has better understanding of Christianity. ...

And I told you: God (on both counts).

 

[Alofa Atu]

...The reason she is kept in the closet is because you know well you are going to get NO WHERE with any christian outside of the bible. ...

Actually only apostates hide sister White. I never have and never will. It would be as bad to speak poorly of Daniel, or Isaiah or John the Baptist or Gad the Seer, etc and try to hide Daniel or Revelation as some systems do.

I speak to others about the messenger of the Lord when they are ready (through Bible study) to hear it, or if they sincerely ask, or I will simply give them material (as I (we) did today, about 400 items) such as Steps to Christ, Desire of Ages, etc. I generally do not hand out "Testimonies to the Church" to non-Seventh-day Adventists, as it isn't for them until they believe, though I may cite occasionally that which is therein to others, especially those who like to misrepresent (or ignorantly) about what is therein.

We are also counselled in the "testimony" to preach the word (Bible). Some act as if that were a bad thing. Yet some take that counsel and go to an extreme to take it to mean bury the "testimony" and never refer to it at all. It never says to do that. It is always situational. For instance, Daniel could have referred to Daniel 2 & 7, even before he was scripture Canon after they were written down. It was already spoken of in Isaiah and Jeremiah., and further detailed in Daniel, agreeing with what came before.

99 percent of my responses will always be KJB. There are times when I refer to the "testimony" for various reasons, to re-emphasize the point made by scripture, correct a misrepresentation, share a connecting thought, etc.

So, I am in no way ashamed of anything that is "testimony", since it is the "testimony of Jesus", not of sister White. I will sit here and quote as much of it as you want.

 

[Alofa Atu]

...If the shoe was on the other foot, I would have came up front with Ellen G White. ...

Then I cannot wait for you to join with us brother utilyan, we could use some solid persons, who are unafraid of God's messenger and message.

There is even a growing number of persons who are non-Seventh-day Adventist who openly and publically speak of her and that which was written, such as Paul Harvey:

"... On September 25, 1997, Paul Harvey, the popular radio personality, announced on his nationally syndicated program:

“Women have been honored on American postage stamps for more than 100 years, starting with one woman who was not an American, Queen Isabella, in 1893. Since then, 86 women have been honored, ranging from Martha Washington to Marilyn Monroe. Also many women authors like Louisa May Alcott, Emily Dickenson, Willa Cather, and Rachel Carson. But I can name an American woman author who has never been honored thus, though her writings have been translated into 148 languages. More than Marx or Tolstoy, more than Agatha Christie, more than William Shakespeare. Only now is the world coming to appreciate her recommended prescription for optimum spiritual and physical health."

During these few minutes, millions of Americans who had never before heard of Ellen White had been introduced to the historic author and speaker.

Paul Harvey concluded, "Ellen White: You don’t know her? Get to know her!” ..." - Link

The only danger of continually fronting her, or that which is written by her on behalf of Jesus, would be that people would misunderstand, not knowing, and think we elevate said sister to a status never given to her. Therefore, be bold, but be wise, is the saying. I do not need anyone thinking I idolize sister White. Far from it. I treat her as I would Daniel, Moses, or Gad the seer ... a member of 'Christ's body' who trusted in her Saviour Jesus Christ.

Does she have authority of herself? No. Does she have authority? Yes, but it always came from Jesus Christ, and is like the other authority in scripture, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc. Once that which is written, "testimony of Jesus" is tested against scripture canon and found to be in perfect harmony, it is to be obeyed as readily as anything Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc wrote. For to go against it, once it is found to be in perfect harmony with all before it, it would be sin, a denial of Jesus, and thus a denial of all that went before it.

Imagine a Jew rejecting Jeremiah in Jeremiah's day, after confirming that what Jeremiah said was 100 percent in harmony with Isaiah, Moses?

 

[Alofa Atu]

...No the thing is you got to sucker a person into a fake christianity and when they are all well invested, oh by the way we have a prophetess. Which is probably the same order you got suckered into that faith. ...

I do not have to 'sucker a person' into anything, and do not ever desire to do so. I have a love of the Truth, as it is in Christ Jesus, and want people to come to Truth an come to know God (the Father) and Jesus Christ, not merely join a church. It is no good to simply be a member (born in and raised or come from elsewhere) and not have that (John 17:3). It is useless religion. A round of ceremonies. Vain worship otherwise. Sadly, many are just in that condition, but God still loves them to send them a wake up call.

I know of no other real Christianity utilyan. I looked. I did not simply abandon Roman Catholicism on a whim and it took a mighty struggle (because I had then a false understanding of God as I can see now looking back) to cast away the final piece of it, the rosary beeds that I had gotten in my confirmation so many years ago, that I had kissed so many times, prayed so many times, many 'decades' (back when it was only 3 mysteries, not 4). I did not go to any other, based on mere happenstance. God providentially led me directly to the door of the Seventh-day Adventist movement, and I had never even heard of them before that time. No one came looking for me, except Jesus Christ, by His Holy Spirit. I am His own.

I was not 'deceived' by a 'nameless' prophecy seminar. I was upon my knees in prayer unto God, unlike so many these days. I asked Him directly. He then, by His providence, took me through many things to come to that door, including deep study of the Bible like never had before, and also history.

God, had already, in His providence given me the book Desire of Ages (7 years before I knew I needed it, or would even read it, or know who it was by (I received it in the mail from a nameless person I had spoken with one day over the internet - I still do not know who that person is). I didn't know who the author was, or whose material it was. I didn't care at the time, and shelved it along with many other things on that shelf.

So, I went to where God led, first to my knees, then to His word, then to many other providences, etc. I even during that time was given by a friend (russian baptist) a set of questions (50+) on sabbath that supposedly sabbatarians can't or won't answer. God used that very thiing, that I was not expecting to convince me of the truth of that area. And that was just one of the many providences that took place (btw they all have answers, its cake-walk now, though then I warred for weeks on each question until I was settled in the truth by prayer, bible study and in history, etc).

So, no utilyan, I came to know sister White and the material by personally taking the time to read, and study and compare her with scripture, as scripture commands me to do. I have tested, as I tested others (Catholicism (pope, etc), JW, LDS, Baptist, etc). This was the genuine article. I could not find any way out, except that I deceive myself or lie to myself, which I almost did. it would have been much easier on me to just deny all the providences, truth, etc that I was shown. My relationships, parents, family, friends all could have remained as they were, but I would know (I would KNOW) that I lived a lie. No, I chose, as Abraham, as Moses, as others, to go forward with Christ and bear the reproach with Him. My relationship with my parents has never been the same. Most of my family is still Roman Catholic working for the local bishop in the city in which they reside, inspite of all that I demonstrate to them (but some are older, so I get it), and most of them are 'good people' (you know what I mean), and even some of them I believe will truly be in heaven inspite of their dying (soon) in the system of Roman Catholicism, but that gives no excuse to others. My old friends are all long gone (even the russian baptist, have no idea where they are).

It costs something to follow truth. Yet, even so, God rewards and shows me things of Himself yet still. I know God loves me, for He chastens me and doesn't let me go without warning. He blesses and shares marvelous things out of His word which most will not understand, as their heads (hearts/minds) are so much in the world. It would be like trying to tell a two year old entranced with a phone and its light, about the glories in history, the human body, the stars, prophecy and a myriad of other things. I could sit an speak with such a person, but mostly be ignored, or get a look of not understanding, even if I slowed way down to explain it.

The walk with God is brighter and brighter, closer and closer, and soon, I will be home, only a few last parts (soon to take place) to go.

 

[Alofa Atu]

...How would have it all played out if up front someone approached you, We have a prophetess on earth, listen to the words of our goddess, No I don't think so. ...

I have had such persons approach me from another religion, LDS. Yet I knew enough already in that system of faith to be wary of it, yet even today I can easily show (from their own books) that they have a hypocritical (not being mean, just using the word correctly) system, as I can show from their own material (BoM, BoA, DaC, PoGP, etc) that the 7th Day is the sabbath. Their own material, even unto their president/'prophet'.

I cannot say what I would have done, since no one came to me in the manner you describe from the Seventh-day Adventist movement. As I said earlier, I never even heard of them before all the rest.

Back then I probably wouldn't have cared, since the devil had a hold of me in a most dark way. (You might say how does that work with the praying rosary, etc). That is another story, and who is behind the voice of the rosary, but not here. Too tired for it. Needless to say, I was like more and more unto the man filled with Legion. My nails were cut to razor sharp edges at the moments before I was delivered, so much so, that I could cut metal with them (I lie not) and things too terrible to describe to you. Sins too black in the catalogue of depravity.

Sister White is no 'goddess'. She was simply a humble woman (as Mary, as Hannah, as Sarah, as Deborah, as others) who accepted the will of God in her life (with great struggle), and became a messenger of the Lord, when at least two others before her (two men, one white, one black) rejected that will.

Do you speak this way about other messengers of God, who spake when God asked them to, even if their material was never scripture canon?

She is resting in the grave until her special resurrection (along with others), and will receive her reward for having faithfully followed Jesus Christ. She had received (and still receives though in the grave) so much flack not merely from external, but worse, even from those of her own. Jeremiah knew what that was like. Jesus know what that is like.

The point, is not to uplift sister White, or any prophet (Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc) but to uplift Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. That's what she does utilyan. You cannot read Desire of Ages, especially the last 15 chapters or so, from Gethsemane to the end and not see Jesus Christ magnified, up lifted, glorified for who He is. God manifest in the flesh, for you and for me and all.

 

[Alofa Atu]

...No they got to butter you up first, build on a foundation of whats wrong with everyone else first rather then foundation of what they are itself.

That's not how it was with me (not that I accept the way you put it to begin with).

I want people to have love of Truth.

Nothing can be built upon the errors of others. It must be built upon Jesus Christ, the true foundation, the Rock.

Any ministry that only points out the errors of others will fail miserably as winning anyone to Truth or Jesus Christ. Any ministry which makes pointing out errors of others its foundation will fail likewise (and they themselves usually become cultic - CARM as one example). Pointing out error is one thing, and needful, as even Jesus did it, but that was never the foundation. Jesus made Himself the foundation. I am the way. I am the truth. I am the Light. I am the good Shepherd. I am the door. etc.

So, while I point out error, sin, etc, that is not my foundation, and I do not hope to gain persons by simply doing that. My threads and responses are specific for their purpose.

If you would like to speak about Jesus Christ, rather than all the other things, by all means, let's do so, and it would make my heart to sing with joy. I would not mind at all utilyan if we spoke about nothing but Jesus Christ and the doctrine of His Father that He shared.

 

[Alofa Atu]

This is obvious even now. 95% of what you talk about is what is wrong with everyone else. You are foundation dependent on failure of another faith.

Not at all. My threads are specific, and especially the one on abortion, which was to counter the one-sided hooplah of another.

Know how many times we got to mention on another religion to get our point across? ZERO. Because the truth can stand up by itself.

utilyan, you speak more about sister White than any Seventh-day Adventist I know, including myself.

You have not shown your faith to do that or to introduce any novel new or good contribution other than the hatred of others.

Hatred of error is not hared of persons. Hatred of doctrine (false) and deeds (evil) is again, not hatred of persons. I do not hate you utilyan, nor Walter nor Adonia, or any one here (though robycops repetitive foolishness really pushes my buttons at times, but even him, I could accept as brother, inspite of those things, but he doesn't desire any such thing from a Seventh-day Adventist like myself and especially a KJB believer)

In fact you need other faiths just like Nazis need their Jews.

No utilyan, I am actually very tired of all the false doctrine, evil deeds, and so on, and long for heaven, where it will be no more. I long for all to be peace, and to no longer war, in this great controversy, once and for all. What a day it will be utilyan, and if you are there, I'll give you a high five, smile and a hug man, I would even do it for robycop.

Truth is beautiful and doesn't need error to exist.

 

[Adonia]

Now, did you actually want to address my point, since it is on OP topic, about 'private interpretation'?

I already did. Others might do it, we don't. Ms. White came up with her own private interpretation which you now follow. It didn't take until she came on the scene for the truth concerning salvation to come out.

As for your other statements and questions they are not worthy of any discussion. Most of them were posted in an attempt to demean and belittle us Catholics, to disparage our faith tradition, and to incite. No, I will not engage in discussion on those other utterances of yours. You started on the low side of things with them and I will not give them any credence as they are worthy of any of my valuable time.

 

[utilyan]

Not at all. My threads are specific, and especially the one on abortion, which was to counter the one-sided hooplah of another.

utilyan, you speak more about sister White than any Seventh-day Adventist I know, including myself.

Hatred of error is not hared of persons. Hatred of doctrine (false) and deeds (evil) is again, not hatred of persons. I do not hate you utilyan, nor Walter nor Adonia, or any one here (though robycops repetitive foolishness really pushes my buttons at times, but even him, I could accept as brother, inspite of those things, but he doesn't desire any such thing from a Seventh-day Adventist like myself and especially a KJB believer)

No utilyan, I am actually very tired of all the false doctrine, evil deeds, and so on, and long for heaven, where it will be no more. I long for all to be peace, and to no longer war, in this great controversy, once and for all. What a day it will be utilyan, and if you are there, I'll give you a high five, smile and a hug man, I would even do it for robycop.

Truth is beautiful and doesn't need error to exist.

Well this is good I hope you can trust God enough to see you through, we don't have to be combative towards each other.

There is a reason the devil is called ACCUSER, every problem in your life and any strife between people could be traced to holding on to a spirit of accusation, finger pointing, blaming and fault finding.


I want you to imagine that in my faith I am taught I have a prophet interpreted to saying all SDA serve evil, they are all fooled by the devil and made blind, one day they will want to kill us all in our sleep cause we don't worship God on Saturday.

How would you get anywhere with any Catholic if anything said was intrinsically taught as a trick from the other side. Where we say you believe X, Y and Z, even though you personally say its A B C. But our teachings say no they believe X Y Z. You would be at a pretty bad disadvantage with anything you say.

However, Catholic church does not say SDA are evil. I don't go to a catholic source or any other source, I ask you what you believe and I get it from you.

You say Ellen G White is not your Goddess. Then amen she is not your Goddess I take your word for it. I don't need to paint you evil or wrong to prove you wrong. When you say your teaching is A B C, I'm not going to insist it is something else.

I get the impression You might not be allowed that freedom, I'm letting you know I can still respect that because I believe you are following your good conscience. I got to believe if I was in your shoes i'd be doing the same thing trying to save you from the monster you don't know about. For that I am grateful and what you are doing is honorable.

Now when I say our teaching is ABC if you are obligated to believe it can't be, You are going to have to let me know what precisely you are taught. Else I've been gagged and bound and not allowed a defense.

So let me start with a little ABC. For Catholics, LOVE is the highest priority. AGAPE. LOVE is GOD. God is beyond any brand name or "team".

For us the priority is weakest of us, it is not salvation, immortality or power. If there was one seat for heaven between us, I'd tie you up in that seat before you can blink.

If you can tell the difference between Kindness and God you still have alot to learn about both.

I can only love God as much as the person I hate the most, I can only care for God as much as the person I care for least.

If the entire universe hated you and wanted to throw you in hell they would have to get past me.

I will never step into heaven or even call it so unless you step in before I do.

 

[Alofa Atu]

I already did. ...

I must have missed that post, can you point me to the post where you responded to the questions I asked in regards Revelation 12 and the 'woman' thereof?

 

[Alofa Atu]

...Mrs. White came up with her own private interpretation ...

Could you demonstrate a specific example please? Just a single example to look at and focus upon would be great.

... which you now follow. ...

As stated, I follow the Lamb (Jesus Christ) whithersoever He goeth (Rev. 14:4), and so I do not follow sister White, any more than I follow Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses or Peter, James, John or Paul for that matter.

Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh_12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

 

[Alofa Atu]

... It didn't take until she came on the scene for the truth concerning salvation to come out.

That is a gross distortion of history and what we, as Seventh-day Adventists, teach and believe. Truth was always there, and the plan of salvation/redemption existed before even mankind existed, and is even seen from the beginning, such as Genesis 3:15, and in the end in Revelation 14:6-7. That is why it is called the 'everlasting gospel'. It was carried through from Adam to today. We happen to teach those things, while others do not.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Now, did you actually want to address my point, since it is on OP topic, about 'private interpretation'? How do you address my questions in regards Revelation 12?

1. Is the woman still pregnant (with child) in Rev. 12:1-2,5?

2. Is the “great red Dragon” also “in heaven” ready to devour the ‘man child’ as soon as He is born in Rev. 12:3-5, and if so, is the devil in Heaven right now with this ‘Mary’ then?

3. Does the Bible anywhere say that ‘Mary’, whether dead or alive, was ‘assumed’ bodily into Heaven?

4. Is the context or Rev. 12:1-2 in pre-AD (Anno Domini) times, since the child was not yet born and the 'woman' still pregnant?

5. Is the context of Rev. 11:15-19 in post BC (Before Christ) times, even at the end of time, during the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:15), wherein the 7 last plagues are mentioned (Rev. 11:18, ‘thy wrath is come’)

It's simple. The questions are based upon what the text plainly says. You do not have to worry about anything else, just address the questions.

Since the OP is about "private interpretation" I gave a specific text we could look at and really see which of us (specifically) had the private interpretation, yourself (Romanism) or myself (Seventh-day Adventist).

Well? You cannot have a better opportunity to address this point. Romanism makes a big deal from Revelation 12 and so it is not a nebulous choice of text. It is an obvious choice to determine the outcome of the OP, and all of a sudden its 'crickets' ...

I even gave you a heads up, sneak peak and head start on what I would present - Anyone may download an entire study (full Powerpoint, free to distribute), line upon line, for Revelation 12 - here - TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free

Not lookin' good for Romanism so far if the person of the OP doesn't want to address their own topic when a specific example is called upon to decide the issue between the disputants.

 

[Walter]

Not at all. My threads are specific, and especially the one on abortion, which was to counter the one-sided hooplah of another.

utilyan, you speak more about sister White than any Seventh-day Adventist I know, including myself.

Hatred of error is not hared of persons. Hatred of doctrine (false) and deeds (evil) is again, not hatred of persons. I do not hate you utilyan, nor Walter nor Adonia, or any one here (though robycops repetitive foolishness really pushes my buttons at times, but even him, I could accept as brother, inspite of those things, but he doesn't desire any such thing from a Seventh-day Adventist like myself and especially a KJB believer)

No utilyan, I am actually very tired of all the false doctrine, evil deeds, and so on, and long for heaven, where it will be no more. I long for all to be peace, and to no longer war, in this great controversy, once and for all. What a day it will be utilyan, and if you are there, I'll give you a high five, smile and a hug man, I would even do it for robycop.

Truth is beautiful and doesn't need error to exist.

Here are just fifteen examples of false prophetess E.G. Whites and why she should be declared a liar and her invented religion declared HERESY!

 

[Yeshua1]

In another thread, a member made the suggestion that this thread be started after he made the statement: "this is what is called private interpretation by Peter himself". So let us look at this "private interpretation" concept and see who uses it.

Is it us Catholics (or other Orthodox believing Christians) who believe in Christian Orthodoxy i.e. a belief one Universal (Catholic) Christian Church (and the sacraments it taught) that existed from the very beginning of the newly forming Christian Church post the Apostles, or is it those Christians who have rejected the authority of the One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church and have gone their own way with their own interpretations and different types of worship which are so far removed from those early days?

Are we to look at the Scriptures as the sole authority ("Sola Scriptura") of the Christian faith, or shall we also look to the Church which was established to decide things? Who actually follows this, us Catholics or is it the other Christians?

What does the historical record tell us? It tells us that this "Sola Scriptura" idea never came about for some 1500 years, which was brought to the world by one man. And when that came, it all became about deciding for oneself what to believe and that initial schism quickly brought about other Christian sects who came up with their own ideas and worship practices. So who is really going the "private interpretation" route here, us Catholics or other Christian believers?

Our friend also said: " The faith once delivered to the saints is not how you, they, or I "see" it. It is how God defined it, demonstrated it, and is called the "faith of Jesus". So who says in what way that "God defined it, demonstrated it" is the correct way? Again, are you saying you have the correct interpretation of all of this?

To my mind it is how we each see it, (apart from having the basic faith in Christ) particularly in the way in which we worship, and I look to the Church for instruction on all of this, not just blundering my way through it as many seem to do.

There are none here who deny that there is a Universal Catholic Church, but that is the one founded by Christ, not the Church of Rome!

 

[utilyan]

There are none here who deny that there is a Universal Catholic Church, but that is the one founded by Christ, not the Church of Rome!

The look on your face when you find out God is actually GOOD rather then excused evil is going to be priceless.